Trading/Crafting in a PvP-only game

[Remus]

57 minutes ago, Fenris said:

i dont need each day 2000 LH.

Do you ever sell anything, or do you make only for yourself?

57 minutes ago, Fenris said:

I am mystifed too by the fact, that you see a problem trading goods for goods, because it saves your money and LH.We are playing a game here where the mechanics from the "real" world can not work.

Trading goods for goods is quite simply too complicated. I have a source of gold and silver so can sell gold, silver, gold ingots, silver ingots or furnishings - whichever buyers happen to want. I have shut down my other mines so I need ballast, iron ingots, iron fittings and three sizes of guns, but if these aren't available I'd settle for stone blocks, iron ore and coal, plus I'd be intersted in other parts that contained iron such as cables and hawsers or rudder parts. There are just too many combinations of possible trades I'd be willing to consider to list, whereas I could (if I were allowed enough buy and sell contracts) give every single item a monetary value:

To sell: Gold 210, Silver 170, Gold Ingots 630, Silver Ingots 555, Furnishings 2750
To buy: Stone Blocks 105, Iron Ore 99, Coal 58, Ballast 208, Iron Ingots 207, Iron Fittings 360, Cables and Hawsers 194, Rudder Parts 134

Easy, isn't it?

57 minutes ago, Fenris said:

If the players sail 80% ships made by AI,it means they are afraid of losing ships,because nobody selling enough materials and goods fast enough, to craft enough relatively CHEAP ships which could be bought by players, who dont have enough money or cannot make enough money to buy SHIPS, which are made by players.

If you understand the last sentence,and you can solve it,we will have economy in the game. If not, well yeah...

Definitely cost, you reckon, not the shortage of labour hours? It takes about 2 player-days of labour hours to make a Surprise. I don't know about you but I reckon most players of NA would rather sail a Surprise than a Brig (1 day's LH). I will also stick my neck out and say most players would like at least a couple of PvP battles a day. If half the ships in each battle are lost, that means ships need replacing at one per player per day. Well, if everyone sails brigs we're fine, but if players want to sail frigates then this either means buying from NPCs or relaxing LH requirements. Edit: Or, of course, they could simply just not risk ships in PvP. That would reduce demand, and what an exciting game it would be. Er...

If LH is relaxed enough then it won't command 1000 gold an hour (labour contracts selling for 500k - pretty standard on PvP1 recently), which also makes player-made ships a lot more affordable.

Note, I am not saying this is what should happen - perhaps the devs have thought it out and reckon that 80% NPC-sold ships is about right and players should only make exotics, but @Anolytic started this thread to look at possibilities and other options, so that is what I am doing.

Edited May 2, 2017 by Remus

[Mulcaster]

Thank you, Remus, for your kind comments.  Over the past two years there have been a lot of excellent ideas on how to develop the economy so that it simulates the 18th century while still being playable.  I suggest players and developers reread some of those threads.  To clarify my ideas on supply and demand.  I think nearly ALL supply should be player-produced.  The only exceptions I would make are 7th rate ships and "cracked four pounders" which should be readily available from the AI to help beginning players get started.  The only other exception would be some manufactured goods and luxuries imported from Europe which should only be available in trans-shipment ports (capitals and regional capitals) at high prices. These would be the same ports which would buy export commodities like sugar and tobacco.   Players would make everything else.  If something was not available, there would be an incentive for someone to begin producing it.  Competitors would undercut high prices.  Of course, for this to work the game needs a better way of conveying information to players. 

To keep the economy from crashing from insufficient demand would require the AI to provide "background" levels of demand.  So every port would demand food, rum, textiles, and some manufactured goods and luxuries.  But the amount of this demand would vary with the size of the port.  So capitals and large cites would demand lots of everything, small outports not much.  Goods would be "used up" by the port, how fast depending on its size, thus resetting demand.  Prices would fluctuate, depending on supply and demand.  An Indiaman full of rum would suppress further demand for rum in that port for quite a while, so prices would fall.  If no merchant has come by recently, prices would be higher.  Demand for ships, cannons, etc. would be from players.  Although perhaps a player could get a "contract" from the admiralty to provide a set number of ships, components, etc. to the admiralty.

The virtue of this is that, since no port is self-sufficient, trade would be required and rewarded.  It would foster regular trade routes, and thus direct PvP players to areas to attack and defend. 

[Challenge]

What @Mulcaster said.

If it is a resource needed for crafting anything it needs to be produced by players, not the AI. Even all those woods we aren't allowed to harvest currently. The 7th rates and light cannon used by most starting characters could be supplied by the AI market so they were always available. Anything else, however, should be left to the players.

@Fenris I was a big advocate of the barter trade until I started looking at the test bed. Now I'm not so sure. It's gotten a bit more complicated and if you spend the majority of your game time clicking buttons to get all the resources, craft the mats, combine the mats, build the ship, etc... when were you going to fight? It makes more sense to follow the open econ model than the one you are suggesting. And, as a point of curiosity, how do you plan on doing all this yourself with only five production buildings? You'll need a ship yard, a workshop for cannon, a handful of resource buildings: you need to get the rest of the bits from someone. And batering for it goods for goods is still buying them from someone else.

Remus' example shows how the demand for ships will grow and it will be faster if more people build different parts. The drain on any one person's LH will be less, so ships get built faster.

[Fenris]

On 7.5.2017 at 1:31 AM, Challenge said:

What @Mulcaster said.

If it is a resource needed for crafting anything it needs to be produced by players, not the AI. Even all those woods we aren't allowed to harvest currently. The 7th rates and light cannon used by most starting characters could be supplied by the AI market so they were always available. Anything else, however, should be left to the players.

@Fenris I was a big advocate of the barter trade until I started looking at the test bed. Now I'm not so sure. It's gotten a bit more complicated and if you spend the majority of your game time clicking buttons to get all the resources, craft the mats, combine the mats, build the ship, etc... when were you going to fight? It makes more sense to follow the open econ model than the one you are suggesting. And, as a point of curiosity, how do you plan on doing all this yourself with only five production buildings? You'll need a ship yard, a workshop for cannon, a handful of resource buildings: you need to get the rest of the bits from someone. And batering for it goods for goods is still buying them from someone else.

Remus' example shows how the demand for ships will grow and it will be faster if more people build different parts. The drain on any one person's LH will be less, so ships get built faster.

I don´t believe in miracles

I don`t know how often i have to reply.....We have everything on LIVE server,but nothing works as it "should".

Now imagine the shortage/game given austerity and "trade" between players.