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Part of a balanced MMO is more than just PvP. Other forms of Player-to-player interaction are also required, including cooperation.
One of the professed purposes of the upcoming wipe is to bring about a new economy, putting behind us - hopefully - the utterly broken one that we’ve been living with for a year, which allowed us to test every other aspect of the game. Creating this new and working MMO-economy is surely no small task. 
I am not a trader in this game. I trade and craft mainly to support other activities, and to sustain my clan. Yet I see that for PvP and the open world to have a sustainable environment as well as a proper balance, trading gameplay needs to be developed, and those players who choose to focus on it need to be encouraged. 
The old economy we have on the live server drove traders away a long time ago. There was no challenge, no unique gameplay, and no supply and demand - only endless supply. The new economy that we are testing on the testbed forces a "division of labour» so to say. Everyone cannot do everything anymore. With new production levels, travel times, and the partial removal of teleports, you can no longer collect every resource, and craft every ship yourself. PvP-players in each nation will depend on the traders and crafters of their respective nation or clan. 
If well balanced, this looks very promising, yet there are a few issues presumably yet to be solved about this part of the game. Like how do we prevent people from each sitting on a heap of their particular valuable, looking enviously on the heap of somebody else, yet not willing to trade away any of their own production? How do we unite the players who are lacking a resource, with a supplier?
And how do we prevent clans from organising an economy internally, while leaving the rest of the nation, and solo-players to their own meagre devices?
On the latter issue, you could dismiss it entirely, and say that if the clans are not contributing to the national economy, then that is a national problem of having selfish clans.
However on the former issue, I believe we need more trade tools, and some mechanisms that encourage player-to-player interaction, even out of OW in port.
 
-We should be able to put up buy contracts for ships. You request wood type, trim and refit, and the crafter fulfills the order.
-If not already implemented, we need to be able to put buy contracts for the refit items.
-There should be ways to acquire Marks outside of PvP and RvR. Crafters, haulers and traders should be able to gain marks from these activities. Interactions with players from your own nation, besides PvP or PvE, should have the potential to generate marks.
 
Being a dedicated crafter/trader, who does PvP only secondarily, will be unsustainable once all ships in high demand will require copious amounts of marks for crafters to make them. They need to be able to take payment that includes coverage of the Marks used in crafting. To make this simpler, Marks could be an item that you can buy from NPCs for gold. The Marks are an infinite resource anyway - its production limited only by how many NPCs we can find and kill. And if the economy is properly balanced so as not to flood the market with gold, then having Marks be an item that you can purchase from NPCs for a steep price would not be a problem. In fact it could help the economy, by taking gold out (giving it to NPC) and putting only a quantity of an infinitely regenerating resource into the economy.
Secondly it would be worth exploring to encourage trade between players and nudging players to put their surpluses on the market for others to get access to, by rewarding trading with Marks. As an example, when you put a quantity of an item on the market with a contract, once that contract is emptied, you are rewarded with a relative number of Marks. And when you sell someone a ship that you crafted, or fulfull someone elses’ contracts, you likewise get marks. Without some mechanics to ensure its integrity, this system would be very exploitable of course, by players trading back and forth between each other. However, you could put limits on it or other measures to prevent abuse, as well as increase the tax on contracts - to then accept that some marks may be generated by players, but in exchange for a money sink.
Thirdly, crafters could get derivative marks, in addition to XP, for kills done with ships that they crafted. So if the player who purchased your ship kills a connie and get 3 marks, then you, as the crafter, are rewarded with maybe 1 Mark.
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Proposed already similar thing..

I agree,that the current abilities we have are not good enough.

Although the game on Testbed is trying to prevent inflation by "austerity"(limiting the amount of available trading goods), it won`t work when the "real" game is on, simply because the market is already now flooded with most profitable trading goods,especially on the "BUYING" side.

In my opinion the only way to "connect" demander and supplier is to allow them to exchange GOODS as well, not only  for money,although many replies in the posted link above still signaling there is no understanding for this kind of trade.

I hope this ideas can find their way into the game, limiting the selling/buying contracts ONLY for money does not work anymore.

.And it pleases me to see that you realise the REAL VALUE of the Marks now ;)

 

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Any idea that allows crafters to not need the PVP/RvR players will ultimately unbalance the sand box.  The Marks system is meant to tie econ players products directly to pvp/rvr activities. Mostly RvR. Further, the value of player harvested marks will decrease as any player with a lot of gold can increase the mark pool without pvp/rvr activities ever occurring.  The end result is that pvp/rvr becomes irrelevant to econ as econ can thrive without it. Players wont need to pvp/rvr if they can just get their marks sitting in a port producing raw mats to make into components and selling them to an NPC port that consumes them for gold to buy marks.  There are multiple towns on the testbed you can already make money without ever leaving port. If they can buy the marks and no one has to ever risk pvp for them then there will be less pvp/rvr.

The only ships that require marks are elite heavy frigates and other ships above the Tricomelee.  Tricom and below require no marks.  In the last gaming year the OW PVP hunting on NA was mostly frigates (Surprise/Reno etc..) as was the trader harvesting.  SOL's dominated RvR situations and fleet grinding. Under the testbed rules only the heavy RvR and fleeting ships will be affected by marks. So the econ merchant that is trading in marks is essentially an SOL builder.  Armies of alts cranking out gold could easily become the new way to build SOL fleets. Rather than months of pvp/rvr. You could build an entire 25 ship fleet of 1st rates without ever having any pvp/rvr activities in game.  A valiant thought but think it will work backwards. Pleasing the econ players for a time at first as it puts a small turbo booster on SOL production. But in the end it is reducing pvp/rvr.

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I like the base idea to give crafter/trader rewards for participate in nations economy. That is the right direction.

But dont see a real solution. If you get marks for using your LH then there are much alts only existing for this purpose. If you get marks for trading between nation players, there are also a problem with exploiting, coz everyone using his alt to transfer good x form char A to char B and backwards. What i want to say..be careful! There could be much problems with alts.

 

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2 hours ago, rediii said:

would be awesome i think

 

I don't know the situation on the testserver but if trade goods are still a thing this is what kills the economy because you have fixed buy/sells. Noone bothers to haul ressources or material which actually is usefull if you can just buy a trade good and sell it somewhere and make a fix amount of income. Leave that to supply/demand and get the tradegoods out of the game again. Trading has to be made with ressources or material which players need/want to create a working economy.

Disagree.

You need  trading goods to be able earning money otherwise than simple PvE missions.

We already seen how players sell goods or materials to AI or setting contracts.

The prices are 2x or 3x  the usual price determined by AI.

This didnt work BEFORE last update, and it did not especially after the last one.

 

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3 hours ago, Bach said:

Any idea that allows crafters to not need the PVP/RvR players will ultimately unbalance the sand box.  The Marks system is meant to tie econ players products directly to pvp/rvr activities. Mostly RvR. Further, the value of player harvested marks will decrease as any player with a lot of gold can increase the mark pool without pvp/rvr activities ever occurring.  The end result is that pvp/rvr becomes irrelevant to econ as econ can thrive without it. Players wont need to pvp/rvr if they can just get their marks sitting in a port producing raw mats to make into components and selling them to an NPC port that consumes them for gold to buy marks.  There are multiple towns on the testbed you can already make money without ever leaving port. If they can buy the marks and no one has to ever risk pvp for them then there will be less pvp/rvr.

The only ships that require marks are elite heavy frigates and other ships above the Tricomelee.  Tricom and below require no marks.  In the last gaming year the OW PVP hunting on NA was mostly frigates (Surprise/Reno etc..) as was the trader harvesting.  SOL's dominated RvR situations and fleet grinding. Under the testbed rules only the heavy RvR and fleeting ships will be affected by marks. So the econ merchant that is trading in marks is essentially an SOL builder.  Armies of alts cranking out gold could easily become the new way to build SOL fleets. Rather than months of pvp/rvr. You could build an entire 25 ship fleet of 1st rates without ever having any pvp/rvr activities in game.  A valiant thought but think it will work backwards. Pleasing the econ players for a time at first as it puts a small turbo booster on SOL production. But in the end it is reducing pvp/rvr.

I don`t need to PvP or RvR to earn PvE Marks which can be converted again. Hell i could just grind PvE untill i have an epileptical attack, i NEVER need to RvR or PvP. :D

It`s about how to bring crafted goods and materials in the market, without demanding ridiculous prices.

 

 

Edited by Fenris
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No. Trade Goods will be the next reason why money isn't worth. A real player based economy like in PotBS (every item was buidl by a player) is the best way in my opinion. It worked there, why not in NA? If there are less goods of something, someone starts to build that for a high profit. Others will follow and then the price sinks.

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13 minutes ago, Sven Silberbart said:

No. Trade Goods will be the next reason why money isn't worth. A real player based economy like in PotBS (every item was buidl by a player) is the best way in my opinion. It worked there, why not in NA? If there are less goods of something, someone starts to build that for a high profit. Others will follow and then the price sinks.

Lol, exactly thats why.

If there are not enough goods around, nobody will sell, or for high prices.Like said,we had this before.

You seem to forget that EVERYONE is crafting first for himself, and if you can craft the same things that i can, why would i buy those things from you?

The only thing that still bothers me is, WHY we are not able to trade goods for goods...

That is the only thing that saves money andLH as well.

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If there is a player who is interested in crafting and selling, this player would sell that item wich is needed. And of course he would sell it for a high price. But thats ablolutely ok. Who dont want to pay that price have to start looking for other ways to get that item. Crafting itself or find a crafting group. And if there are other Crafter/Trader who find this profitable market for that item, they starts to build and sell it by themself. That will lower the price and so on. The problem isnt a player driven ecenomy or clans wich are bilding their own economy circle, the problem is a cash cow like the trade goods. And again: There are other games outside wich successfully including a player driven eco!

Edited by Sven Silberbart
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7 minutes ago, rediii said:

The problem is that there is no demand that changes the prices. You can make traderuns all day everyday and the AI doesn't care, they allways need more. You kill trading with this because traders don't use the market if trade goods are present. It's just a item which magically everyone needs and never gets enough. Actually the demand is so high that the price should be gigantic.

A market doesn't work if there are magic objects which everyone needs because like i said noone uses the capital market anymore if that's the case. You just kill every reason to haul/trade usefull material/ressources with tradegoods

Once again...You can not earn money with something that everyone can craft.

Why hould i buy Iron Fittings from you? Tell me 1 good reason.

I would only  BUY from you, if you would need something where you can spare your money or LH.

Thats why we DESPERATELY need ability to trade goods for goods.

Edited by Fenris
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18 minutes ago, rediii said:

Well because you can't craft everything?

Are you arguing that ressources and material shouldn't be in the market because it doesn't make sense? What am i reading here? :D 

Trading ressources and material is the only thing that makes sense. Everything else is just a back and forth hauling of useless objects for money generation. What do you do in the end with your money? Buy more tradegoods?

Sorry i don't understand your point why trading shouldn't be about ressources and material that you need to craft ships.

???

You need money even to craft freaking Fir or Iron. Thats why.Just an example.

Don`t turn the words around or READ more carefully :)

Of course trading materials and resources makes sense.

I just dont understand why are you so simpleminded :D

Those players which can craft certain things will not buy those for money. They will craft them on their own.

You play this long enough to know that.

Momentarily there are no restrictions at Testbed at all, to craft anything,but ships.That`s a reason more to NOT buy materials and GOODS at all.

If i can craft cannons,why should i buy them from you, unless you OFFER me GOODS for your cannons.

You can not establish economic cycle in a game where EVERYONE can CRAFT EVERYTHING with same quality.

That`s not possible.

And dont forget the "human nature factor".(50 % economy is the psychology)

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9 minutes ago, Fenris said:

???

You need money even to craft freaking Fir or Iron. Thats why.Just an example.

Don`t turn the words around or READ more carefully :)

Of course trading materials and resources makes sense.

I just dont understand why are you so simpleminded :D

Those players which can craft certain things will not buy those for money. They will craft them on their own.

You play this long enough to know that.

Momentarily there are no restrictions at Testbed at all, to craft anything,but ships.That`s a reason more to NOT buy materials and GOODS at all.

If i can craft cannons,why should i buy them from you, unless you OFFER me GOODS for your cannons.

You can not establish economic cycle in a game where EVERYONE can CRAFT EVERYTHING with same quality.

That`s not possible.

And dont forget the "human nature factor".(50 % economy is the psychology)

really ???  

ive bought for cash lots of resources and materials I could have crafted myself  .. its a calculation you have to make yourself ... the cost in gathering resources and labour hours used to either collect or manufacture . v  the price someone is selling that iten for

i havent mined coal for months because it was more cost effective just to buy

offering goods in exchange has always been available ..although i understand that interplayer trading will be taken away ..

If i can craft cannons,why should i buy them from you, unless you OFFER me GOODS for your cannons.

that doesnt even make sense

you want him to offer you goods and give you cannons .....

 

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2 hours ago, Fenris said:

I don`t need to PvP or RvR to earn PvE Marks which can be converted again. Hell i could just grind PvE untill i have an epileptical attack, i NEVER need to RvR or PvP. :D

It`s about how to bring crafted goods and materials in the market, without demanding ridiculous prices.

 

 

True, but to get those PVE marks you still have to at least be on the ocean somewhere providing a potential pvp target.  If PVE marks can be created without pvp potential (target) it still opens up to players determined to "play it safe" making PVE marks from pure port based methods. This will bring crafted goods to market cheaper but at the cost of potential pvp.  Plus it makes it so the econ players don't need pvp or pve players for anything. That's not an interconnected relationship.

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1 hour ago, Fenris said:

Why hould i buy Iron Fittings from you? Tell me 1 good reason.

Maybe you are tied up with other resources at your other ports and it would be unfeasible for you at that moment to re-establish said building with the possibility of destroying another building just to get that small amount of iron ore? Just spit-balling here.:rolleyes:

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1 hour ago, Fenris said:

Once again...You can not earn money with something that everyone can craft.

 

do not try to explain it further. The average PVP oriented players thinks more or less that way: "I shall be entitled to do just everything carebears and traders do, but - hey - the best things ingame shall be reserved just for me". And if you ask them "why?", they answer "because I am a uberprowtfomgpvpplayerzpwner and you are just traders and carebears". A self explaining tautology.

But that is not the problem: this attitude is the same in every MMO that allows pvp in open world. The real problem is that this view seem to have become also the one of the Devs, which should realize instead that a good balance of rewards in PVE and PVP is mandatory in any MMO, also in the ones that are heavily PVP oriented.

Let's then fight fire with fire and propose a really hardcore crafting and trade system: OK with no ships, no permits, no BP no upgrade as possible reward for PVE activity (just trading ships could be bought with PVE marks), but whenever you get a PVP mark, for the next12 hours you cannot harvest or craft anything and you cannot take or deliver delivery missions (and marks effect stacks). This way you have to choose: OR you craft and trade (and buy PVP marks from warriors), OR you do PVP (and buy materials from crafters). Do you think the majority our "naval action PVPers" will accept this tradeoff? I doubt it.

Edited by victor
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1 hour ago, Grundgemunkey said:

really ???  

ive bought for cash lots of resources and materials I could have crafted myself  .. its a calculation you have to make yourself ... the cost in gathering resources and labour hours used to either collect or manufacture . v  the price someone is selling that iten for

i havent mined coal for months because it was more cost effective just to buy

offering goods in exchange has always been available ..although i understand that interplayer trading will be taken away ..

If i can craft cannons,why should i buy them from you, unless you OFFER me GOODS for your cannons.

that doesnt even make sense

you want him to offer you goods and give you cannons .....

 

A lot of things dont make sense to you.

But i know that already.

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1 hour ago, Grundgemunkey said:

really ???  

ive bought for cash lots of resources and materials I could have crafted myself  .. its a calculation you have to make yourself ... the cost in gathering resources and labour hours used to either collect or manufacture . v  the price someone is selling that iten for

i havent mined coal for months because it was more cost effective just to buy

offering goods in exchange has always been available ..although i understand that interplayer trading will be taken away ..

If i can craft cannons,why should i buy them from you, unless you OFFER me GOODS for your cannons.

that doesnt even make sense

you want him to offer you goods and give you cannons .....

 

If you buy materials and resources from another player for money, you are doing something wrong.

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36 minutes ago, Fenris said:

If you buy materials and resources from another player for money, you are doing something wrong.

The barter system is how most closed loop Econ systems work. We see this mostly in clans acting independent of national Econ. Basically player A trades cannon carriages to player B who pays by building a ship for player A. It actually hurts the Econ of the nation and slows ship production.  The best method for a war economy is actually open loop trade with market hubs at industrial hubs.  Here player A produces carriages in bulk with his materials and labor hours. He puts them up on a market for all the nation to access. Player B collects material from the market and only uses his labor hours to produce ships the nation uses and puts those up on the market. Player C produces Long and Carronades with his labor hour and puts those on the market.  Gold is the common denominator that ties these all together and allows the market to work faster without individual player to player contracts.  

Now we could create an index of offered contracts that trade goods for goods. Players could shop thus index. It would work but not as fast or flexible at building ships as a gold based market.  Reason is that player have to constantly review the index to find an exact mutual transaction first and then fill it.  In the gold based trade hub they just put up their products whenever they want and adjust the gold price till it sells to some player that may not have the exact item player A wants at the time but has the gold. Player A can then take the gold and buy from player C that has the exact items he wants but does not actually want his carriages.

If we could convince the players of a nation to drop the closed loop and self performed ship building models for instead creating open loop stocked national market hubs that nations ship building capacity would greatly increase.

Edited by Bach
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I think the question is whether NA should be an historical game or a combat game.  If it is a combat game, we don't need OW, we can go back to something like sea trials.  If it is to be an historical game--and I think that is its real potential--then it needs to start simulating history as close as we can within the limits of good game play.  In the history of the 18th century the economy is CENTRAL.  Wars turned around economic advantage, battles were to raid, capture, or protect trade routes.  Unfortunately, NA has developed backwards.  Combat has been central and endlessly adjusted, while the economy is and has been an afterthought.

To simulate the 18th century economy means supply and demand.  I have argued since sea trials that production should be player-based with only enough demand supplied by the AI to keep things circulating.  Various elements of the economy have been added--luxury items, trade goods, etc.--but without supply and demand it doesn't work.  Shipbuilding is essential for the game, but should only be one part of the economy, not its central purpose.  A well-rounded economy would allow players to build up trading empires and give PvP players lots of rich targets to raid or protect.

To do this the game needs several things.  It needs an open-loop system, as Bach says above.  Trade between players needs to be facilitated, so changes in supply and demand can be quickly responded to. Deliveries and teleportation need to be eliminated or greatly curtailed to put commerce back on the sea.  Nearly every port needs to demand nearly every consumer good, but demand has to fluctuate with supply so players have to look for markets.  Games like Patrician have been doing this for many years.  Demand for export commodities such as sugar and tobacco should be very low except in trans-shipment ports (capitals and regional capitals?) where demand and prices should always be very high.  This simulates demand in Europe for certain commodities (sugar was like oil then, everybody wanted it).  This would reward the player who wants to build up an export business but also tells pirates and enemies where his trade routes will be. 

 

 

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MAYBE this is an solution:

In real life the companies trying to avoid to stock too much materials in their warehouses. Why? Because it costs money!

What about implenting warehouse costs? If there is a closed economy loop (maybe a clan of 10 people), like Bach said: They have more and more materials in their warehouse (player- or clanwarehouse). If there is a limit, lets say a max of 20000 of planks in a warehouse and every plank more that this limit generates costs, then a closed eco loop would start to sell the overflow to the local market. Coz unused LH are like lost money their maybe continue producing crafting goods and give them into market.

Edited by Sven Silberbart
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Warehouse space was real estate owned by individuals/groups or by the state. And a share of the proceedings of any auction would go to the owners of that real estate.

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13 hours ago, Anolytic said:

-We should be able to put up buy contracts for ships. You request wood type, trim and refit, and the crafter fulfills the order.

I really cannot think of a better econ suggestion

13 hours ago, Anolytic said:

-There should be ways to acquire Marks outside of PvP and RvR. Crafters, haulers and traders should be able to gain marks from these activities. Interactions with players from your own nation, besides PvP or PvE, should have the potential to generate marks.

Marks are tradeable and there is a tab for them in the Shop. Crafters, haulers and traders can buy them. This is enough.

5 hours ago, Sven Silberbart said:

No. Trade Goods will be the next reason why money isn't worth. A real player based economy like in PotBS (every item was buidl by a player) is the best way in my opinion. It worked there, why not in NA? If there are less goods of something, someone starts to build that for a high profit. Others will follow and then the price sinks.

NA is not PotBS. Whether or not its economy should become (more) like PotBS is a debatable point (see @Mulcaster's post quoted below), but if the PotBS route is to be followed then some very fundamental changes, not least reducing LH requirements (or increasing LH generation) about five- or ten-fold.

4 hours ago, Fenris said:

Once again...You can not earn money with something that everyone can craft.

Why hould i buy Iron Fittings from you? Tell me 1 good reason.

Because it costs me LH and I am desperately short of them for making ships. Or I don't have iron and coal mines in my 5 building slots. Or possibly because you've under-valued them and I know I can make a profit by hauling them to KPR.

Quite frankly I am mystified by your reluctance to use money as a medium of exchange. This is its main purpose, and I see no reason whatsoever to introduce a complex bartering system into a game set centuries after bartering ceased to be the norm.

47 minutes ago, Mulcaster said:

To simulate the 18th century economy means supply and demand.  I have argued since sea trials that production should be player-based with only enough demand supplied by the AI to keep things circulating.

I agree with your post entirely, but here you have nailed it. What, exactly, is 'enough demand supplied by the AI to keep things circulating'?

For guns, the devs are pretty clear this means Medium Cannons sold in shops. For repairs they seem to have decided on small quantities dropped by AI ships. For ships there is the Basic Cutter ... but what else? What is 'enough demand supplied by the AI' in terms of ships? My guess is 80% or more ships sailed will be AI bought, if only because players simply don't have enough LH. But is this right?

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5 hours ago, Fenris said:

If you buy materials and resources from another player for money, you are doing something wrong.

Ive  come to the conclusion your just a troll or have never played this game

are you seriously trying to tell me you have never paid cash for any resource or material in this game ,,,,i dont believe you

on reflection I might believe you if you have about 4-5 alts

Edited by Grundgemunkey
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1 hour ago, Grundgemunkey said:

Ive  come to the conclusion your just a troll or have never played this game

are you seriously trying to tell me you have never paid cash for any resource or material in this game ,,,,i dont believe you

on reflection I might believe you if you have about 4-5 alts

As far i can remember i have never bought anything from players, simply because the prices are ridiculous.

And because i can make everything on my own.

No need for it.

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3 hours ago, Remus said:

I really cannot think of a better econ suggestion

Marks are tradeable and there is a tab for them in the Shop. Crafters, haulers and traders can buy them. This is enough.

NA is not PotBS. Whether or not its economy should become (more) like PotBS is a debatable point (see @Mulcaster's post quoted below), but if the PotBS route is to be followed then some very fundamental changes, not least reducing LH requirements (or increasing LH generation) about five- or ten-fold.

Because it costs me LH and I am desperately short of them for making ships. Or I don't have iron and coal mines in my 5 building slots. Or possibly because you've under-valued them and I know I can make a profit by hauling them to KPR.

Quite frankly I am mystified by your reluctance to use money as a medium of exchange. This is its main purpose, and I see no reason whatsoever to introduce a complex bartering system into a game set centuries after bartering ceased to be the norm.

I agree with your post entirely, but here you have nailed it. What, exactly, is 'enough demand supplied by the AI to keep things circulating'?

For guns, the devs are pretty clear this means Medium Cannons sold in shops. For repairs they seem to have decided on small quantities dropped by AI ships. For ships there is the Basic Cutter ... but what else? What is 'enough demand supplied by the AI' in terms of ships? My guess is 80% or more ships sailed will be AI bought, if only because players simply don't have enough LH. But is this right?

If you can`t find a better econ solution think harder, although buying ships on contract is not a bad idea, or instruct someone by contract to craft a particular one.

Still a problem seeing enemies crafting ships for enemies :), and the prices will be, well, high ;)

Everyone has his own system collecting goods, i dont need each day 2000 LH.

I am mystifed too by the fact, that you see a problem trading goods for goods, because it saves your money and LH.We are playing a game here where the mechanics from the "real" world can not work.

If the AI is the only BIG demander and supplier, which will still be the case,after the wipe,unless a miracle happens(don`t believe),then econ still does not work

If the players sail 80% ships made by AI,it means they are afraid of losing ships,because nobody selling enough materials and goods fast enough, to craft enough relatively CHEAP ships which could be bought by players, who dont have enough money or cannot make enough money to buy SHIPS, which are made by players.

If you understand the last sentence,and you can solve it,we will have economy in the game. If not, well yeah...;)

 

 

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