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Propose new gun types


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Pirate Carronades 6-9-12 LB

  1. Role - Sail and rigging dmg. Low damage but high rate of fire and arc, designed to help Pirates desail their pray. 
  2. Penetration - Extremely low
  3. Distance and trajectory - Short Range high arc
  4. Damage - Low
  5. Splinter damage - 0
  6. Fire chance - low
  7. Weight - Extremely Low
  8. Cost - Low to mid
  9. Crew per gun - Less then standard Carronades of = size
  10. Reload - Very Fast
  11. Breakage chance (strength of carriage) - Standard 
  12. Special Resource requirements? - Player must be a Pirate or BP dropped by sinking pirates

The Meat Grinder 6-9 LB

  1. Role - Anti Crew cannon - Lower damage but high rate of fire, pre-boarding cannon
  2. Penetration -  Low
  3. Distance and trajectory - Short Range flat trajectory
  4. Damage - Low
  5. Splinter damage - 3 out of 10
  6. Fire chance - low
  7. Weight - Low
  8. Cost - Low to mid
  9. Crew per gun - Less then standard Carronades of = size
  10. Reload - Fast
  11. Breakage chance (strength of carriage) - Standard 
  12. Special Resource requirements? - BP drop

English Bombard 18+ lb

  1. Role - High damage bombard with very slow reload. Think ship to ship mortar.
  2. Penetration - Extremely High
  3. Distance and trajectory - Short-Mid Range, high arc trajectory.
  4. Damage - Extremely Highw
  5. Splinter damage - 9 out of 10
  6. Fire chance - High
  7. Weight - Extremely high
  8. Cost - High
  9. Crew per gun - Considerably higher standard Carronades of = size
  10. Reload - Very slow
  11. Breakage chance (strength of carriage) - weak
  12. Special Resource requirements? - Lancashire Iron, Sussex Oak, BP Drop
Edited by Daguse
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we need one of this for small boats

edit with my ideas 

 

  1. Penetration and penetration fall off . very little is more intended to shoot crew
  2. Distance and trajectory - small and flat , easy to shoot and with a lot of arch of fire 
  3. Damage-- low 
  4. Splinter damage-- low
  5. Fire chance --low 
  6. Weight-- low 
  7. Cost-- low 
  8. Crew per gun-- 2 
  9. Reload --a lot of  fire rate until reload, then a long reload 
  10. Breakage chance (strength of carriage) low 
  11. Special Resource requirements? maybe some Brithish thing because is British
Edited by Capitan Camuñas
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I would love to see Congreve rockets implemented into the game...  However, I wish to use them as flares for finding clanmates during night patrols and dirty weather...  They would also be great for OW salutes, especially if Global chat goes away.  That being said, it would be far cooler if the magic "I'm in your group" flags were replaced by changeable signal flags/pennants and flares for identifying each other.  

I suppose you COULD have the option of attempting to use them against targets, however.  Contemporary reports, as we all know, paint them as painfully inaccurate though.

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I would love for us to just get this patch into testbed and stop adding stuff.  If they feel they need to add more to the cannons let the devs do that later.   While a few special cannons types will be nice, but the problem is they will end up with just metas of every one getting those Swedish longs or what not instead of using the normal guns.  

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A clanmate brought this up the other day, and it is a good point: how I can get medium 42pd cannons for my first rates? If you have to capture AI ships to get the medium cannons, because you can only craft long cannons and carronades (that was my understanding)...how will this work? Are we now able to capture AI first rates to steal their medium cannons for our own first rates? Or can we craft medium cannons?

And before someone asks the question "Ewww, why would you want medium cannons on a first rate?" Well that is just the way I run them. I tried every loadout imaginable for first rates, and I have found what I consider to be the perfect first rate brawling loadout--and it includes medium cannons.

As to special guns, the only ones I see being needed are swivel guns (upgrade you can put on any ship) and some special long chasers that ships can carry: 

Long 9/6/4pd Chase cannons:

  1. Role: Chase cannons for bow and stern guns. Can only be fitted there/cannot be used as broadside guns.
  2. Penetration - same as long gun.
  3. Distance - longer than long gun.
  4. Accuracy-extremely high.
  5. Damage-low
  6. Spinter damage - much less than long gun.
  7. Cost - 5x regular long gun because it is bronze and physically larger.
  8. Resource required - copper and iron (I don't think we have tin in the game..so iron will have to work in game).
  9. BP drop-available in the admiralty shop for 50 PvP marks.
  10. Reload: 2 seconds longer than equivalent long gun.
  11. Speed effect: gun is the same weight as a long cannon 1 class higher (ex: a long six chase cannon weighs as much as a regular long 9), so the ship is slightly slower because of it.

 

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46 minutes ago, The Red Duke said:

I am happy with the guns we have. The 36 pounder could be added of course.

Other than that, no.

Only thing I can see expanded, more due to economy is the material of the barrels.

are be allowed to use it on other ships than just the one right now, cause traditionally wasn't it used over the 42 lbrs on other first rates other than the Vict?

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Firstly GREAT idea!

What about a general simplification of the guns qualities:

1) General Use (medium guns) guns could be seperated into two quality levels such as basic and fine / grey and blue. 

2) Long guns could be also be seperated into to two quality levels / again grey (basic) and blue (fine). 

3) Carronades - same thing basic and fine level qualities. Fine getting a 30% increase in overall destructive value. 

Cost and destructive factors will apply as will pricing; fine guns could cost 50%-75%  more whereas basic will be more affordable. All guns can be craftable but I think it's a good idea to make fine guns more difficult to make or purchase requiring special materials. For example fine guns would have - penetration +25%, trajectories -15% arc, destructive force +15% overall and other factors can be programmed into the fine quality canon ball. I just realized where behind the ball came from ;o)

The two tier system could be applied to all guns except class one and two which I think should be fine anyway at that level. Destructive values would apply to all fine guns. 

I don't like the explosive fire-ball idea as fires will end a ships life far to fast and deter from any kind of positive experience for the players. Plus the use of fire balls in that era often resulted in the ship using them starting fire first. 

What do you think? Comments?

Here is an example of a high end canon you could use. 

 

 

 

20120406184542!Cannon,_Ch%C3%A2teau_du_H

 

Edited by Buba Smith
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6 hours ago, admin said:

sometimes variety can lead to depth.

In the cannon case for example we want to introduce slow reload/high alpha guns into the game

Russian Edinorogs are probably what you are looking for.
I think they would qualify as 'high alpha' against wooden ships :o

  • Role: explosive shell artillery - close to medium range
  • Penetration: low to medium when using explosive shells (but massive secondary damage) - high when using solid shot: 60+ pound ball shot
  • Distance: between medium gun and carronade
  • Splinter damage: extremely high when using explosive shell - normal for solid shot

In reality they were apparently not slow to reload, but its probably a good balancing stat as would be going through hoops when acquiring the explosive shells.

 

Edited by Snoopy
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1 hour ago, Hodo said:

Exactly.

We dont need "new" meta guns that were used maybe a half dozen times over the span of 100 years.  How about we get the things we have now working, and the ammunition stores we were told may come.  

There is an idea for ya!

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

are save this for another patch that will let us test it.  Nothing wrong with some feed back of concepts, but don't let if effect current patches and work.  Save it for the future.   TO much stuff been holding things back as is.

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9 hours ago, admin said:

sometimes variety can lead to depth.

In the cannon case for example we want to introduce slow reload/high alpha guns into the game

 I can appreciate the variety and adding depth with different crafting builds and combinations.  I realize we may give up a little historical accuracy but let's face it there was only one constitution too.  The more variety and depth, the more unique the type of constitution you can build or any other ship.  This  in addition to no two captains being alike  makes every ship unique and therefore every battle unique! 

 I am all for it  but please if you're going to keep doing these "special drops"  then make it to where someone  can obtain them through skill and/or hard work.  Not through ganking  or clan membership.  There are a lot of Lonewolf players out there  who don't travel with five or six other gang members  or possess the ability to hack cheats. 

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I like the idea?

But I personally feel that current cannon balance is this: "why do mediums when you have longer range, and better penetration with longs? The reload bonus is not enough to make a difference, and with less penetration your guns won't do the higher damage they are supposed to."

Or is there some medium/long cannon balancing in the works?

a 5 second reload difference is...correct me if I'm wrong, but it makes no difference overall.

 

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1 minute ago, The Red Duke said:

one thing you can immediately spot is with less pen of shot you splinter more ( shatter the planking ) but do less dmg to structure.

Which initially I'm not sure how that helps you? I suppose it would deal more damage to crew?

My first thought though is that assuming I'm broadside to broadside, or angling your ship to add the chance of balls bouncing off, you're aiming to sink the ship.

I guess to clarify is that Medium cannons "bonuses" are just not good enough compared to the advantages you get with longs. my argument is that Medium cannons should have a better bonus, or something to make them shine? current battles that I have been in always favor longs. since longs have better penetration and longer range, the ship with longs will essentially always be able to dictate the battlefield against mediums.

Another thing is that medium cannons weigh less, but I will argue that the less weight is also not enough to ever make them better.

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The Medium is the middle between a carronade planks battering ram and a high velocity pen long.

It is a compromise choice. It has a bit of both but is not special as any of those.

IRL powder charge was more important than a half a dozen inches barrel length.

 

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10 hours ago, jodgi said:

Shouldn't the little ones have something going for them? I'm sure it's historical for big ships to be deathstars to smaller ones, but does the game get better if big ships can kill the crew of little ships that work hard at staying out of the gun arcs?

Derp guns could provide quite a bit of entertainment and frustration and we could fill our meme thread with our own versions of these:

Shouldn't guy on a 1st rate be able to answer griefing when small ships like cutters and rattles tag him and keep in the battle for eternity?
Small guy already have something "going for him" against bigger ships - speed and manoeuvrability and thus they are in control if they want to stay or run.

Swivels should not be OP, just chip about 5-10 crew at the time so small ships wont lose their crew right away and will have an option to withdraw, but at the same time big ships wont have griefing problem.

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1 hour ago, Teutonic said:

I like the idea?

But I personally feel that current cannon balance is this: "why do mediums when you have longer range, and better penetration with longs? The reload bonus is not enough to make a difference, and with less penetration your guns won't do the higher damage they are supposed to."

Or is there some medium/long cannon balancing in the works?

a 5 second reload difference is...correct me if I'm wrong, but it makes no difference overall.

 

Lets take the Aggy, same build and put them side by side in a brawl.  One ship has all longs.  My ship has Mediums on the bottom deck with longs on the middle and I run Carros on the top deck but we will just turn those off for this topic.  Now I bet you if we are under 250m brawling I'm going to do way more damage than you.  Than lets toss in Double Ball if we are 100m from each other.  The mediums can be devastating at that range.  Remember the PvP2 US/Brits complaining about pirate hacks how we pen every one and they keep bouncing us?  Well that is cause even with Mediums we can run double charge for distance and pen and do more damage, but up close we run double ball and just shred there armor at point blank.  Than of curse we will angle our ships and they would bounce even at close range.   A lot of folks don't see the potential of Mediums.  Also every one of those guns I have 1-2 less crews on it that can be doing maning other guns or my sails that you have man your guns.  So I can in a effective brawling fight run both decks on and keep the guns fully crewed in the fight or take very little hit cause of low crew compared to some one that runs all longs.

Yes if the fight was taken to distance you will have an advantage on pen and range over me, but than your damage drops too.  It's not a build I would use for most OW PvP fights, unless your running the tank of the group.   

Also Mediums 24's will have the same reload as longs 18's.  Medium 32's have the same reload as long 24's.  So on the 4th and 3rd rates with this set up all my deck guns are running at the same reload so I'm getting pretty much the same alpha strike every time with all my guns against you when your running one deck at a time cause of your off reloads after that first broadside.  And remember with the less crew mediums take I can more effectively still sail my ship with less crew that won't effect reloads as bad when I start to loose them.  When your talking about 30 something guns that is 60 extra crew I have that I can loose before it hits into my crew management depending if I have one deck turned off and only fighting on one side or if I have to have both on and fighting with both.

And this is all not adding mods like powder  monkeys, improved mags or Rum rations (every thing I run on my Aggy in port battles) along with the Frigate master to get 15% off my reload which is all ready faster than yours (If nats where smart they run pirate hunter with same build to make that 20% off).  So on a 24 lbr gun I'm shaving almost 10 seconds off my reloads compared to your longs, though it would be more like a 5 sec difference if we have the exact same builds.  That 5 extra seconds of me getting another broad side on you can mean a big difference of who sinks who.  

Edited by Sir Texas Sir
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A cast bronze Long Culverin, (Front)

  1. Role: Advanced accuracy over long guns, 
  2. Penetration - sligtly worse compared to long guns 
  3. Distance - 10% more range
  4. Spinter damage - 5% less damage compared to medium guns at point blank
  5. Cost - 25% more compared to long guns
  6. Resource required - Bronze and and Fine Lime stone

--------------------------------------------------------------

A cast bronze Heavy Culverin, (Rear)

  1. Role: Worse accuracy compared to Medium Guns
  2. Penetration - Sligtly worse penetration compared to Carronades. 
  3. Distance - Sligtly better compared to Medium guns
  4. Spinter damage - Carries almost carronade damage , but sligtly less
  5. Cost - 25% more compared to Medium
  6. Resource required - Bronze and and Fine Lime stone

 

Mary_Rose_Guns_ForeBronzeCulverin_RearWr

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is how they should look in the game compared to others. 

Overview:

Heavy Culverin - (Less Damage vs Cannonades, Slightly better range, rare material + more cost + more crew damage at close. Fire chance increased at close range + slightly worse reload. 

Carronades

Medium Culverin - (Less Damage vs Medium Guns, better range , rare material + more cost + better reload)

Medium Guns

Light Culverin (Less Damage vs Long Guns, better range , rare material +more cost + better reload)

Long Guns

 

PS I need to work on these little more, but here is a general idea. Feel free to brainstorm and use this as base. 

 

45b125cfa8fc6957f3c9a137a065214e.png

 

------------------------------------------------------------------

(Top deck only)

Breach Loaded Culverine 

High Damage vs crew at close range. Ship armor needs to be at -50% to gain effect on these guns. 

aed9d848682129dd45024888f16332d0.jpg

 

Turkish Bronze Cannons 

High Damage against Forts and Structures. Only can be used on specific Ships. (Brigs? any others?)

Very bad performance compared to all other guns when used against ships. Very good all around performance when used against structures. Medium range. Little less reload compared to Mortarts. 

turkish-bronze-cannon-london.jpg

Edited by Ned Low
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31 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

Lets take the Aggy, same build and put them side by side in a brawl.  One ship has all longs.  My ship has Mediums on the bottom deck with longs on the middle and I run Carros on the top deck but we will just turn those off for this topic.  Now I bet you if we are under 250m brawling I'm going to do way more damage than you.  Than lets toss in Double Ball if we are 100m from each other.  The mediums can be devastating at that range.

Aye, the medium 42s on the bottom deck of a first rate with carronades on top is a nasty broadside. I put longs in the middle two decks and I can make my Vic do almost as much damage up close as a Santi that has all longs. Combine that with the Vic's turn rate and nice hull shape...I'll put her up against anything else in the PB. :ph34r:  I also run the same setup on my Aggy as you do.

 Of course, yall hear me on TS kicking myself every time I forget I have the mediums on and then complain "why hasn't his mast fallen yet!?" :rolleyes: Mediums are HORRIBLE for demasting...they just don't have the accuracy and pen you need for that. But get within hull smashing range and they do indeed make up for that.

Also, last time I checked, a medium 18 does as much damage as a long 24 but does not have that same pen. Same thing with 24M/32L and 32M/42L. It might be the same with the smaller guns too, but I don't recall for sure.

So to those people who complain that mediums are never used...that is not true, they have a purpose, but they are specialized indeed. B)

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7 minutes ago, Willis PVP2 said:

Aye, the medium 42s on the bottom deck of a first rate with carronades on top is a nasty broadside. I put longs in the middle two decks and I can make my Vic do almost as much damage up close as a Santi that has all longs. Combine that with the Vic's turn rate and nice hull shape...I'll put her up against anything else in the PB. :ph34r:  I also run the same setup on my Aggy as you do.

 Of course, yall hear me on TS kicking myself every time I forget I have the mediums on and then complain "why hasn't his mast fallen yet!?" :rolleyes: Mediums are HORRIBLE for demasting...they just don't have the accuracy and pen you need for that. But get within hull smashing range and they do indeed make up for that.

Also, last time I checked, a medium 18 does as much damage as a long 24 but does not have that same pen. Same thing with 24M/32L and 32M/42L. It might be the same with the smaller guns too, but I don't recall for sure.

So to those people who complain that mediums are never used...that is not true, they have a purpose, but they are specialized indeed. B)

I use medium cannons on my SoLs. At medium/close range are better then long ones and faster on reload. Of course the choise depending by styles (or ships too). 

I tryed duels with a friend of mine and we saw that medium are good too. @Louis Garneray

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44 minutes ago, Ned Low said:

A cast bronze Long Culverin, (Front)

  1. Role: Advanced accuracy over long guns, 
  2. Penetration - sligtly worse compared to long guns 
  3. Distance - 10% more range
  4. Spinter damage - 5% less damage compared to medium guns at point blank
  5. Cost - 25% more compared to long guns
  6. Resource required - Bronze and and Fine Lime stone

--------------------------------------------------------------

A cast bronze Heavy Culverin, (Rear)

  1. Role: Worse accuracy compared to Medium Guns
  2. Penetration - Sligtly worse penetration compared to Carronades. 
  3. Distance - Sligtly better compared to Medium guns
  4. Spinter damage - Carries almost carronade damage , but sligtly less
  5. Cost - 25% more compared to Medium
  6. Resource required - Bronze and and Fine Lime stone

 

Mary_Rose_Guns_ForeBronzeCulverin_RearWr

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is how they should look in the game compared to others. 

Overview:

Heavy Culverin - (Less Damage vs Cannonades, Slightly better range, rare material + more cost + more crew damage at close. Fire chance increased at close range + slightly worse reload. 

Carronades

Medium Culverin - (Less Damage vs Medium Guns, better range , rare material + more cost + better reload)

Medium Guns

Light Culverin (Less Damage vs Long Guns, better range , rare material +more cost + better reload)

Long Guns

 

PS I need to work on these little more, but here is a general idea. Feel free to brainstorm and use this as base. 

 

45b125cfa8fc6957f3c9a137a065214e.png

 

------------------------------------------------------------------

(Top deck only)

Breach Loaded Culverine 

High Damage vs crew at close range. Ship armor needs to be at -50% to gain effect on these guns. 

23654-01.jpg

 

Turkish Bronze Cannons 

High Damage against Forts and Structures. Only can be used on specific Ships. (Brigs? any others?)

Very bad performance compared to all other guns when used against ships. Very good all around performance when used against structures. Medium range. Little less reload compared to Mortarts. 

turkish-bronze-cannon-london.jpg

Culverins were not used in the 15th-16th centuries? Then they used cannons...

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2 minutes ago, JeanJacques de Montpellier said:

Culverins were not used in the 15th-16th centuries? Then they used cannons...

Question is - are we building a realistic simulator? or MMO fun game. If we are building an accurate simulator game then good luck. :)

Edited by Ned Low
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9 hours ago, Ned Low said:

A cast bronze Long Culverin, (Front)

  1. Role: Advanced accuracy over long guns, 
  2. Penetration - sligtly worse compared to long guns 
  3. Distance - 10% more range
  4. Spinter damage - 5% less damage compared to medium guns at point blank
  5. Cost - 25% more compared to long guns
  6. Resource required - Bronze and and Fine Lime stone

--------------------------------------------------------------

A cast bronze Heavy Culverin, (Rear)

  1. Role: Worse accuracy compared to Medium Guns
  2. Penetration - Sligtly worse penetration compared to Carronades. 
  3. Distance - Sligtly better compared to Medium guns
  4. Spinter damage - Carries almost carronade damage , but sligtly less
  5. Cost - 25% more compared to Medium
  6. Resource required - Bronze and and Fine Lime stone

 

Mary_Rose_Guns_ForeBronzeCulverin_RearWr

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is how they should look in the game compared to others. 

Overview:

Heavy Culverin - (Less Damage vs Cannonades, Slightly better range, rare material + more cost + more crew damage at close. Fire chance increased at close range + slightly worse reload. 

Carronades

Medium Culverin - (Less Damage vs Medium Guns, better range , rare material + more cost + better reload)

Medium Guns

Light Culverin (Less Damage vs Long Guns, better range , rare material +more cost + better reload)

Long Guns

 

PS I need to work on these little more, but here is a general idea. Feel free to brainstorm and use this as base. 

 

45b125cfa8fc6957f3c9a137a065214e.png

 

------------------------------------------------------------------

(Top deck only)

Breach Loaded Culverine 

High Damage vs crew at close range. Ship armor needs to be at -50% to gain effect on these guns. 

23654-01.jpg

 

Turkish Bronze Cannons 

High Damage against Forts and Structures. Only can be used on specific Ships. (Brigs? any others?)

Very bad performance compared to all other guns when used against ships. Very good all around performance when used against structures. Medium range. Little less reload compared to Mortarts. 

turkish-bronze-cannon-london.jpg

 

 

These example pictures are all 16th and 17th century and perhaps not very well placed in the game, however the types of gun used would be quite nicely placed, I'd personally quite like to see some representation of Falcon/Falconets Culverins/Demi and Sakers, all having seen some use in naval warfare of the period, although as I think someone pointed out the vast majority of naval guns were still cannons, as they offered the best characteristics needed for sea service. The Falconet seeing some considerable service during the American Revolutionary war. Culverins were also fairly popular but they tended to be restricted to being chase guns due to their high length to low poundage ratio. Sakers are probably the odd one out here, many of which were just older guns that hadn't been recast, or destroyed, they were clunky and heavy, however they were relatively cheap due to their obsolescence, many of which were made during the conflicts of the 17th century, English civil war, 30 years war ect.

Generally when you speak of the characteristics of each type you get:

  • Culverins
    • Long Barrel
    • High Accuracy
    • Long Range
    • Small poundage
    • Medium Penetration (due to comparatively smaller charge)
  • Falcons
    • Small Gun
    • Low Crew Cost
    • Medium Accuracy
    • Small Poundage
    • Low Penetration
    • Quick and easy to aim
  • Sakers
    • Heavy weighted weapon
    • Cheap to buy
    • Medium accuracy
    • Medium Penetration
    • Slow to aim
    • Outdated

When it comes to the Ottoman gun its probably not worth making a big thing over, Turkish artillery was surprisingly slow to advance beyond their huge advantage they had in the 15th and 16th centuries, The general stagnation of the Ottoman empire as a whole also reflects their slow nature to innovate new gun design and foundry methods as was happening in western Europe. The gun shown in the picture would have similar characteristics to the outdated Saker, their worth as a siege gun would also be limited as it would perform worse than a regular long gun or Culverin. The lack of innovation in firepower on the Ottoman's part was one of the significant reasons they were unable to create much success at sea beyond the days of their famed admiral Barbarossa.

8 hours ago, JeanJacques de Montpellier said:

Culverins were not used in the 15th-16th centuries? Then they used cannons...

Did you mean this as you wrote it? Culverins were hugely popular during this time, especially in Galley conflict, there are numerous Culverin Finds from wrecks dating from this period. There are some really nice examples found from general wrecks and invarious battle sites ranging from the Turkish capture of Constantinople to the Spanish Armada.

As another possible suggestion we could perhaps include some high quality guns from different origins, say English Iron guns as the top tier as they represented the zenith of iron gun founding during this period. This leaves something that is quite approachable and useful to players as a door to thinking about how well guns were materially composed or manufactured.

Edited by Fluffy Fishy
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10 hours ago, Ned Low said:

Question is - are we building a realistic simulator? or MMO fun game. If we are building an accurate simulator game then good luck. :)

A realistic game i think, or not?

"NAVAL ACTION IS AN EXCITING, REALISTIC, AND BEAUTIFULLY DETAILED NAVAL COMBAT GAME IMMERSING PLAYERS INTO THE EXPERIENCE OF THE MOST BEAUTIFUL PERIOD OF NAVAL HISTORY - WHEN SAILING SHIPS RULED THE SEAS."

@admin, i'm wrong?

Edited by JeanJacques de Montpellier
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