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Nightflops and the continuing development of a "global server"

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1 hour ago, Bearwall said:

I actually believe a lot of US players will return to the game now that it gets a dedicated US server (with US maintenence hours otherwise it won't make sense). Regarding the issue not being set in stone, you've had 4 months to think up a better solution and so has everyone else - I doubt there's going to be one so stop the BS about whining the complaints are valid and have been for the past 4 months..

The game currently does not have enough people to properly split between 2 servers.  This is a fact.  Most nights there are more people on PVP1 at 10pm EST than there are on PVP2.  People left this game for a number of reasons, chiefly among them there's just not enough people to make the game interesting.  This solution won't fix that, people won't come back.

I'm not certain the devs would actually pull the trigger on something as monumental as this.  It would alienate a US player base on PVP1 that is arguably larger than the PVP2 and earn then a lot of negative reviews and a lot of angry US players when it comes to NA2.  If game labs wants to continue in the US market it would be advisable to perhaps not piss off those potential buyers.  

15 minutes ago, JonSnowLetsGo said:

I disagree. You are the one who chose to keep the alliance broken as it is: US + EU vs EU timezone (you could have literally chosen how the alliances should look like, as long as its US vs Brit, you still said no). Thats just abuse, if you want to see it or not. Read Inks post again, that is the reason for this much needed change. Dont blame the Eastern Alliance, blame yourselves.

Thats true, it sucks for you and for NA as a whole. Many didnt wanted that, but what choice did you give the devs?

This is a testing server right?  They could perhaps TEST a couple systems to see what works.  The production team is either lazy or focused on other things.  Maybe both.  I really liked your idea the other day, think the devs actually read it?  

 

I got my moneys worth with the game should they decide to change things drastically and they'll just end up getting another bad review with 2k+ hours on it.  

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7 hours ago, Ink said:

Captains, he current alliance situation on pvp-1 is that one side have players in US time zone and another don't, which is the root of the problem. We tried to find out the solution that will suit everyone but we did not find it yet unfortunately. Thus, to cut the Gordian knot, we decided that until release there will be two servers, EU and US, with their prime timers. In the remaining development time until release we will still try to find out the solution, and apply it in case of success.

There is a possible alternative which is still in discussions, thus the decision of separated timers is not 100% yet.

I hope any alternative gets the fullest consideration possible.  Anyone that is "liking" your post either cannot anticipate effects from causes, or simply does not want this game to succeed.  There is no point in keeping the US server.  It will never be more populated than it is now.  The Australian, N. and S. American players on the EU server are there for the community, the clans, and the competition.  The US server will always be "the little brother," the "minor leagues" if you would.  Nobody who is interested in the competitive scene has any interest in playing on that server.

This is what happens if you split the servers, and truly try to force the issue:  The US faction on the EU server will be a shallow shell of itself, essentially fodder for other nations to pick apart.  The US players will either play as privateers (if they simply want to keep playing) or leave.  The ones who leave will drop huge amounts of negative reviews for enforcing segregation and breaking apart communities.

Simply put, this game will die.  The US playerbase will move on, and the EU playerbase won't have enough people to sustain the game.

Please, please, please look at any other option.  Look back to Lord Protectors.  Use 8 hour windows of exclusion centered on the opposite of their average peak player time.  Use Hethwill's suggestion.  Please do ANYTHING except try to enforce a server split that simply won't work.  Hell, open the Pacific, and have one side be US timer-based, and the other EU timer-based.  Anything except splitting the servers and killing a game we all dearly love.

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10 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Look, it is not our fault that we have managed to cobble together an alliance that more completely covers the primary playing prime-times. The Eastern Alliance could have done the same thing. I'll give you an anecdote to help you understand:

I convinced my brother to buy and play the game but he and I are extremely competitive, and I told him if we want to fight each other his best bet would be to join the Spanish on PvP1 (this was back in the days of mass brawls out of Key West). He's not nearly as hardcore a player as I am, and can't sink the kind of time I do into the game, but on evenings and weekends he'd play, and even when server populations were near their daily peak he could count on one hand the number of times someone would chat or respond in English in their nation chat. He was never asked to join a clan, never offered any help, and never supported beyond my funneling some money and ships to him from my own account.

I conclude from this and accounts from other players that your Eastern Alliance is actively hostile to improving your own lot. And instead of working to form new alliances, recruit clans to your cause from other nations and their time zones using all means necessary, or even support your own home-grown players that could cover your interests in the Americas and Oceanic time zones, you seem, from either xenophobia or paranoia (spies!!1!) to let them slip through your fingers. He's long since given up the game but I found it just sad and a perfect illustration of why the US-Brit-Dutch alliance seems to have time zone coverage while your alliance does not.

Again, this is not our "fault." How you can claim that we should have broken our alliance just to help out yours, especially after being such utter asses with broken treaties, exploits, and shit flinging is beyond me. We play with the players we enjoy playing with, who we can communicate with on open, friendly, collegial terms. And we assume that everyone should have that same right, and if you all find that collegiality in your alliance, that's great. We find it in ours and time zones be damned.

All of that is to say: This is a social problem that does not need a game mechanics fix. You pissed your bed and you should have to sleep in it until you find a way to solve it. Instead, you've whined loudly enough to trigger happy developer's who can't get out of their own way and not alienate half their player base.

preach it brotha

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5 minutes ago, Wraith said:

I'll give you an anecdote to help you understand:

Let me return the favor.

RDNN is perhaps one of the most multinational clan in D-N. We have players from Norway, Denmark, Germany, The Netherlands, Britain, Australia, Canada, France and even Spain and the odd Russian and Ukrainian. Yet we all speak english and are open to all nations and imezones. Everybody get the same treatment: Free ships for PB and a lot of fun doing them.

Yet we cannot recruit more nighttime players because we can't find them in our nation. Mainly because D-N isn't a nation with historical significance of a lot of fiction to back it up. No D-N Hornblower, Aubrey or Pirates Royal Navy references. Not even a spot in Yellowbeard ffs. Even the Dutch have US players because of republic and historical significance. If a pond is empty there is no use to fish in it. So I cannot see how this is "our" fault.

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4 minutes ago, Kloothommel said:

Let me return the favor.

RDNN is perhaps one of the most multinational clan in D-N. We have players from Norway, Denmark, Germany, The Netherlands, Britain, Australia, Canada, France and even Spain and the odd Russian and Ukrainian. Yet we all speak english and are open to all nations and imezones. Everybody get the same treatment: Free ships for PB and a lot of fun doing them.

Yet we cannot recruit more nighttime players because we can't find them in our nation. Mainly because D-N isn't a nation with historical significance of a lot of fiction to back it up. No D-N Hornblower, Aubrey or Pirates Royal Navy references. Not even a spot in Yellowbeard ffs. Even the Dutch have US players because of republic and historical significance. If a pond is empty there is no use to fish in it. So I cannot see how this is "our" fault.

The pond is empty now.  It used to be full.  RDNN perhaps is the exception, not the rule.  Now that your side needs US players there are none to be found.  A server merge might help that though  

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5 minutes ago, Christendom said:

The pond is empty now.  It used to be full.  RDNN perhaps is the exception, not the rule.  Now that your side needs US players there are none to be found.  A server merge might help that though  

I don't think so, for obvious reasons:

On 2-3-2017 at 3:46 PM, Kloothommel said:

To be honest, after seeing some PVP2 in action, nothing. Most would just join their "own" nation, that being US/GB/VP. Of course, the other nations also have some "night crew" as well, but the numbers would once again go to the "side" that already has most. So in the best case "we" would gain 1 "night crew", while "you" would gain (at least) 1 extra as well. Attrition in nightflips would destroy our nightcrew by sheer attrition as they would face at least 2 nightflip crews that can rotate. Numbers would still be crooked. Why? Language barriers, nation preferences etc. Nothing that hasn't already been analysed in threads like these.

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The admin has been begging us to write reviews and defend Naval Action on Steam. They have even implied that it is somehow our responsibility to create positive advertising for their company by writing these reviews. They have tried to shame us for not defending them when others made negative reviews and used that as an excuse for decisions they make about the game.

I have yet to make a review on steam of any sort. I have defended them once. I have held my tongue because I want to see the near final product and not continually review an incomplete game. I figured that when release was announced and near I would give my complete opinion to that forum and I have always hoped that it would be a positive one. I'm afraid that I will be compelled to write one early.

I have argued with the entitled cry babies for months now and I have often said that the choice to split the server is up to the devs but until they decide to do so, don't sit here telling me that I don't belong when I've been around on this server longer than 99.9% of them. But now the devs may make that choice and that is their right but it will not make many of the north American players and others that play during their time frame happy and I guarantee that the devs are gonna receive a plethora of the negative reviews they are so desperately trying to avoid. Some have said that those reviews will simply be countered by many positive reviews that will come from a move like this but all that will do is validate the negative ones and we all know that it takes many positive reviews to overcome one negative one, especially when the negative review is from the heart and an honest portrayal of the game.

The negative reviews will speak to the perceived discrimination that the North American players have experienced from both the devs and the European community. They will talk about the many good and functional ideas that could have been taken without alienating an entire people group and show how from the beginning the devs made it near impossible for NA and SA players that live in or near the pacific time zone from being able to participate on either pvp1 or pvp2 servers. They will end their reviews by showing how the devs caved to a bunch of hypocrites that couldn't suck it up and overcome. When they make this argument it will be believable by most western time zone players.

Many may find problems with what will be said but by then the damage will be done. People are worried about a dying game while cheering a development that could lead to reviews that actually kill it.

I implore the devs to find another solution. It is not like there haven't been many good proposals. It has not be often but there has been times when the devs surprised us with a new mechanic that we didn't see coming and we have seen how hard they have worked to perfect the combat system. It is time for them to show that same spirit of invention with this issue and not to be pushed down the easy road by a bunch of loudmouths. No good can come from it.

I will save my review until we all hear the final outcome. I would suggest that if you move forward with this then you wipe all the servers so that everyone will have to start over. That will eliminate at least one complaint about the discrimination. If you coerce players to switch servers where they will have to rebuild from scratch while the rest of the players scratch their butts and laugh then you will find that to be a common theme in the reviews.

And to the "butt scratchers". If they go through with this, then I guess you will have won this war but thats only because you lacked the strength of character to overcome. LV brags about beating us in 2 weeks. It took us only 2 days before you were crushed. Just two days and you had given up. If i am forced to leave for pvp2 I will surely take away that fond memory and we will share that story with mirth around the scuttle butt for years to come.

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1 hour ago, JonSnowLetsGo said:

You are the ones holding the gun to the devs head forcing an answer to your abuse. You were doing this since the new map was released, which was 5 months ago. The only good solution to this would have been an alliance change, which you declined.

This shows your ignorance. The US has been flipping ports at these times since January of 2016. It only became a problem when the almighty Eastern alliance finally felt its force. Its funny that you are saying we are holding a gun to the devs head when its the Euros that have been whining and crying so loudly... something the US never did in over a year of playing with Euros. It was the Danes, the Russians, the French, and somewhat the Spanish and Swedes that told the devs they refused to play until the devs forced us to go or created a mechanic to ruin our game. So don't bull@#$% yourself into thinking that we are the ones holding anything against anyone's head. What a laughable comment that was. Just plain stupid.

"forcing an answer to your abuse." - calling players who play at their prime time abuse. lol. another stupid comment.

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Replies below.

35 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Yet I don't see RDNN actively advertising on the forums or in Global to recruit English-speaking, or US/Oceanic time zone players to their cause? I don't see you starting up English-speaking sub-clans in other nations (other than perhaps ATLAS, which has little traction apparently given Isla and Remedios)? I don't see you going to PvP2 and actively recruiting players to PvP1 for port battles?  If you've tried all these things and still can't attract players then perhaps it's the color and stink of the rhetoric that's been tossed around on global chat and the forums by members of your alliance that's turned them off? Or maybe we're just better salesmen?

We tried PVP2. Ping issues for the potential recruits made the plan not work.Recruitment in Global chat is (as far as I know) against the rules.I cannot force other nations to do anything like you say. Most in our nation just don't have the time for that.

I'm not saying that personal proclivity can be combatted in recruiting players. And in fact it's not the new players that can be actively turned as easily as it might be to go after existing, veteran clans. You could have approached 7Up for example, or VCO, or TDA for that matter, and tried to convince us to go Dane. (We'd have spit up our bourbon and then kicked you in the ass on the way out the door, but still, you didn't try to make us an offer we couldn't refuse either).  My hell, you had an entire pirate clan go Brit because the Danes pissed in their cheerios so much when they could have been a hugely useful tool for you!

We tried to. We got kicked in the ass and out the door. Multiple times.And I have no intention to play with SORRY/TOXIC. They are bad people.

I'm not here to fix your social problems. You could just as easily join the Dutch now and bang, problem solved, no more night flips. ;) There are social solutions to be had, but you've steadfastly refused to pursue them in favor of moaning to the dev's to "fix" it, or for us to break our alliance to do it for you while giving us no incentives to do so.

We could with the whole eastern alliance go BANG, roll US and switch to enemy with GB, via neutral and flip the map green. Both your and my scenario isn't realistic.

If the Eastern Alliance started caring less about colors on the map, and started banging on the dev's door for more patches and content and less for time zone issues you could make the game better for everyone while at the same time alleviating the grind and cull that RvR currently represents as the end-game. If we had things other than grind RvR to do at night then we'd do it!

We care about fair (port)battles and we have been fighting uphill against the BAD alliance for over half a year now. The massive assaults usually come from the BAD alliance, so who cares most about the colors on the map? The time zone crunch is real. And the fact there are finally attempts to get it fixed at 2 to midnight isn't something I enjoy. This should have been from the beginning. But that is all crying over spoiled milk.

Edited by Kloothommel
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9 hours ago, Ink said:

Captains, he current alliance situation on pvp-1 is that one side have players in US time zone and another don't, which is the root of the problem. We tried to find out the solution that will suit everyone but we did not find it yet unfortunately. Thus, to cut the Gordian knot, we decided that until release there will be two servers, EU and US, with their prime timers. In the remaining development time until release we will still try to find out the solution, and apply it in case of success.

There is a possible alternative which is still in discussions, thus the decision of separated timers is not 100% yet.

Ink,

By doing this you would actively divide the player base from each other, pulling apart multi nation clans and alliances that are over 2 and a half years old! This is not a fix, even a temporary one, and I am pleading with you, do not do this. In all likelihood the fallout from taking such action like this will drive hoards of players to leave the game, as well as leave negative steam reviews. It has potential to destroy the game you guys have worked so hard to produce.

I implore you, seek and work on alternative options...

Sincerly,
An (almost) 4 year veteran of your game

Edited by Eldberg
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And here I thought you were a major proponent of the sandbox experience, which is the complete opposite of telling people to completely give up on any and all meaningful RvR (you know, the thing you guys are already telling us to do) and instead divvy up some ports and treat PBs as a lobby.

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NA project Testing hostility system up to now:

A. Port timers set by lord protector ==> It could have worked, but PVP1 Western alliance, with their full time zone player base, set timers that Eastern alliance could not cope with. This has generated unbalanced fights and loss of players/testers.

B. +46h PB after 100% hostility reached ==> It does not work neither, PVP1 Western alliance, with same full time zone player base, let a group of them set repetitive nightflips that have exhausted motivation of Eastern alliance.This is currently generating unbalanced fights and loss of players/testers

(to be noticed that during both tested mechanics, most factions who set PB's during most populated prime time enjoyed very dynamic campains)

 C. New solution to be tested asap ==> After very long silence, dev's will implement (asap) a new solution that will be anyhow improving A & B 

 

No tester can dictate a solution (even by threatening "bad reviews etc...")  only objective facts are taken into account to develop a better solution (some of you should stop bullshiting about favoritism !!).  

Edited by Celtiberofrog

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26 minutes ago, Celtiberofrog said:

NA project Testing hostility system up to now:

A. Port timers set by lord protector ==> It could have worked, but PVP1 Western alliance, with their full time zone player base, set timers that Eastern alliance could not cope with. This has generated unbalanced fights and loss of players/testers.

B. +46h PB after 100% hostility reached ==> It does not work neither, PVP1 Western alliance, with same full time zone player base, let a group of them set repetitive nightflips that have exhausted motivation of Eastern alliance.This is currently generating unbalanced fights and loss of players/testers

(to be noticed that during both tested mechanics, most factions who set PB's during most populated prime time enjoyed very dynamic campains)

 C. New solution to be tested asap ==> After very long silence, dev's will implement (asap) a new solution that will be anyhow improving A & B 

 

No tester can dictate a solution (even by threatening "bad reviews etc...")  only objective facts are taken into account to develop a better solution (some of you should stop bullshiting about favoritism !!).  

 
 
 

pfft

Edited by Surathani

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For the life of me, I don't get it.

I don't think Ink was saying that the player accounts would be forcibly segregated by hemisphere between the two servers. All I get out of it is that they don't plan to merge PvP1 and PvP2. I think (hope) a lot of people are reading too much into...

"Thus, to cut the Gordian knot, we decided that until release there will be two servers, EU and US, with their prime timers."

Having said that, I do not understand why the PvP2 maintenance schedule wasn't corrected shortly after OW release to something like 3 or 4AM USA central time. Something that *seems* ridiculously easy to do. Yes it would mean diverting a person (or persons) to do it twice each day instead of both at once. If that is the reason, just say so and be done with it. If it isn't open to debate, just go on the record and say so. Then players who have been asking for this for months can stop and decide what to do. Deal or leave.

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4 minutes ago, Angus McGregor said:

For the life of me, I don't get it.

I don't think Ink was saying that the player accounts would be forcibly segregated by hemisphere between the two servers. All I get out of it is that they don't plan to merge PvP1 and PvP2. I think (hope) a lot of people are reading too much into...

"Thus, to cut the Gordian knot, we decided that until release there will be two servers, EU and US, with their prime timers."

Having said that, I do not understand why the PvP2 maintenance schedule wasn't corrected shortly after OW release to something like 3 or 4AM USA central time. Something that *seems* ridiculously easy to do. Yes it would mean diverting a person (or persons) to do it twice each day instead of both at once. If that is the reason, just say so and be done with it. If it isn't open to debate, just go on the record and say so. Then players who have been asking for this for months can stop and decide what to do. Deal or leave.

For one, it cuts right into Aussie primetime (8-9pm). Just another cheerful effect of trying to run global servers, since lest we forget the US server is just as global as the EU one and thus cant have any preferential treatment either, right?

By the way, your signature quote is from the Archer sitcom.

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On 3-3-2017 at 3:09 AM, Bearwall said:

I don't even want to discuss this. Only ask 1 question for devs and playerbase alike. When is this going to be "engaging playerdriven content?"?

20170303030148_1.jpg

 
 

Well i dont see anything strange here...

Did you rus and danes ask the Americans how late it is on there side of the world ?????????????

no ..

or did you??? 

i think you did not figure out what the consequences would be if you attack a American port

 

Edited by Thonys

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Love this change:D tryed to warn the us to change on the alliance or do less night flips to grief the eastern alliance flipping port at night and only showing with a few ships to drag out the battle with no intent of fighting... you where cocky at that time and now see all the whineing of your own work..

No you will whine in the hope the devs do something else instead, but it is to late.. you set this onto yourself by greifing and now you can reap the rewards.

whole plan of removing flags was to stop the empty port battles and all griefing that lead to... GOOD JOB US NATION YOU FOUND A NEW WAY TO EXPLOIT IT!!!!!

now you can whine all you want it's your own damn fold.. so go to the us server they will start and you can flip all port you want in prime time and get a battle that you most likely don't really want

 

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3 hours ago, Celtiberofrog said:

NA project Testing hostility system up to now:

A. Port timers set by lord protector ==> It could have worked, but PVP1 Western alliance, with their full time zone player base, set timers that Eastern alliance could not cope with. This has generated unbalanced fights and loss of players/testers.

B. +46h PB after 100% hostility reached ==> It does not work neither, PVP1 Western alliance, with same full time zone player base, let a group of them set repetitive nightflips that have exhausted motivation of Eastern alliance.This is currently generating unbalanced fights and loss of players/testers

(to be noticed that during both tested mechanics, most factions who set PB's during most populated prime time enjoyed very dynamic campains)

 C. New solution to be tested asap ==> After very long silence, dev's will implement (asap) a new solution that will be anyhow improving A & B 

 

No tester can dictate a solution (even by threatening "bad reviews etc...")  only objective facts are taken into account to develop a better solution (some of you should stop bullshiting about favoritism !!).  

So the Western alliance gets punished for being more open minded and reaching out to get players from across the globe so we can fight 24 hours a day My clan has almost and equal number of EU and North American players which means we can show up 24 hours a day.  Why cant Eastern Alliance clans do the same ? You guys have no problem trying to flip US ports when most of our players are at work but because it is in your "prime time" so it makes it ok. Funny 50% of the time your "Work Flips" fail because we built 24 hour clans and we can defend our ports.  That is how you stop our night flips not getting us thrown of the the server. 

as someone pointed out last night if you stopped calling them EU server and US Server and called them PVP 1 and PVP 2 would you still want to ban half your player base from PVP 1 and you are totally ignoring the plight of all the players who live in Asia and Oceania to the only way this game survives is with more players on 1 server.  So start recruiting North Americans and Oceania players build up a "NIght Crew" and stop whining.  Maybe a Nap would help with that too. :) 

 

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That's it Wraith, give us a break...and don't forget to take your pills.(and not too much wank, you know it's not good, your hand can do other thing in life)

Cheers

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I dont see any solutions  to this problem.
You really like take  empty and undefende ports???
I think that its better that who want play without opponents, play in other server, and dont destroy the small community of players of naval action, that every day is smaller.

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20 minutes ago, Wraith said:

You are all such shortsighted, selfish gits.

Ironic

Meanwhile all you see is your alliance without looking at the whole server.

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