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Solving the griefing tagging and screening problem


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Genius solutions sometimes come unexpectedly. Maybe users proposed it before but we have not seen it for some reason. We found the way to solve the screening fleet problem completely. The 4x modi

we originally had a neutral nation and thinking of bringing it back  only pirates could attack neutrals, but neutrals could enter any city.  We think it is a great option to replace pve serv

Sehr geehrte Herren Kapitäne, Entwickler und Admins, das ist ein weiterer Schritt in die Richtung weg von interessanten Seegefechten - hin zu portbattles (was immer man von portbattles halte). Me

@Kloothommel @rediii

If we bring a fleet of 25x 1st rates screening Castries, your 10 or 15 screeners will not drag them as usually. It works both ways. It protects Port Battle fleet, but in the same time makes even screening fleets more powerful. I hope that the example is much of exagerated, because it will break the game even more (especially for smaller nations).

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17 hours ago, Wraith said:

This was exactly my first impression as well: Small nations are dead.  Counter screening will be nearly impossible and all it will take is a 25 man 1st rate fleet to sit off the port and wait for the port battle fleet to arrive. They won't be able to be counter screened at all if the attacking fleet can't provide counter screening of equal fleet sizes.

Am I correct in saying though that this implemenatation will get added along with the mechanic of logging in and not being able to join a port battle for 30 minutes?

Because I feel that will help alleviate some issues. 

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1 hour ago, Wraith said:

Well, it will definitely alleviate some important issues. But while I feel like that mechanic is an exploit, it is also one that benefits smaller nations more than larger nations. That's why we see the Danes, French and others use it to avoid large screening efforts. With the addition of the weighted-tagging-by-number approach screening by larger nations will be un-counterable.

But the amount of actual PB's would increase :)

 

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Isn't there a risk with this system that offensive screening (catching the defending PB fleet) could become quite effective?

For example, if an offensive screening fleet is of the same size as a PB fleet, what's to stop them from just parking in front of the enemy port and tagging the defending fleet once they step outside? Since there's no one around capable of tagging them.

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2 hours ago, Aegir said:

Isn't there a risk with this system that offensive screening (catching the defending PB fleet) could become quite effective?

For example, if an offensive screening fleet is of the same size as a PB fleet, what's to stop them from just parking in front of the enemy port and tagging the defending fleet once they step outside? Since there's no one around capable of tagging them.

20 second rule, join PB as soon as you undock?

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On 21/02/2017 at 4:56 PM, Wraith said:

Well, it will definitely alleviate some important issues. But while I feel like that mechanic is an exploit, it is also one that benefits smaller nations more than larger nations. That's why we see the Danes, French and others use it to avoid large screening efforts. With the addition of the weighted-tagging-by-number approach screening by larger nations will be un-counterable.

I'm not convinced that devs have found a way to "fix" screening and make the game actually playable for smaller nations, or make port battles more likely to be full on both sides. However I'm willing to test these new mechanics devs are working on. And make no mistake, I do think the current log-out-log-in thing is bad gameplay (at least when it means logging out for several hours, or days, before a PB - taking a 30 min break right before a PB is actually quite pleasant). I do think that it should become impossible - at least the way it is now - but I was hoping to see the devs have a clearer and more convincing solution for balancing screening first.

I was very disappointed when devs announced they would bar entry to PBs after logout, without saying anything back then on how they would fix screening issues first. I think the key issue with RvR right now is the 46 hour warning, that attackers cannot choose the wind, and that attackers have no wriggle room about when exactly they want to start the port-battle. These things are what forces the big alliance blocks we have now. And it makes it impossible for a lone nation like pirates, or a small nation alone, to accomplish anything. Before the map reset, 25-35 people in a tight knit group playing together could accomplish something in RvR alone. Now you need 100 people at least. It is what makes this game a full time job for those of us who try to organise the RvR and who generate a lot of the fun in this game for other players. It means even a big clan is screwed if it isn't on good terms with others. 

The number of people you now need to organise, talk to and be on good terms with for RvR is exceeding Dunbar's number. I'm an introvert... I miss the times when I just needed 24 close friends to attack a port. I still made 100s of friends in this game back then, on both sides of alliances. I just didn't have to deal with all 100+ of them every day. I could vary who I talked to a bit. 

Edited by Anolytic
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Allies should only be able to access a third of any possible resource production in an allied port. Simulates own trade protective laws even against trustful diplomatic allies.

Force trade. Force feed the need for whatever.

 

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8 hours ago, Intrepido said:

It depends of how the devs define neutrality.

If neutrality gives you the option of build live oak forest or place a shipyard most of the problems you mentioned will go.

Somekind of neutrality that allows trade agreements of this kind.

we originally had a neutral nation and thinking of bringing it back 

only pirates could attack neutrals, but neutrals could enter any city. 

We think it is a great option to replace pve server with.

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17 minutes ago, admin said:

we originally had a neutral nation and thinking of bringing it back 

only pirates could attack neutrals, but neutrals could enter any city. 

We think it is a great option to replace pve server with.

YES!

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1 hour ago, admin said:

we originally had a neutral nation and thinking of bringing it back 

only pirates could attack neutrals, but neutrals could enter any city. 

We think it is a great option to replace pve server with.

There are clearly not going to be rookie only port battles in the rookie zone. Particularly with important resources and trims there. Make Northern Bahamas neutral regions and have every player start neutral and then be able to choose to join a nation after some play-time.

 

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2 hours ago, admin said:

we originally had a neutral nation and thinking of bringing it back 

only pirates could attack neutrals, but neutrals could enter any city. 

We think it is a great option to replace pve server with.

glad to see that u devs are thinking about a way to make PvE and PvP co-exist ... this really make me happy , good job!

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14 hours ago, admin said:

we originally had a neutral nation and thinking of bringing it back 

only pirates could attack neutrals, but neutrals could enter any city. 

We think it is a great option to replace pve server with.

This means trading will be monopolized by people with alt accounts, and any clan would have at least a few alts to trade.

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1 hour ago, fox2run said:

If tagging is dependent on BR then there shouldn't be any time-limits on reinforcing battles.

We need open battles!

Use "Signalling perk", then your friends can come help you if you get ganked. But you wont be able to have 20 friends join your 1v1. 
It is the best compromise because "Counter-ganking" is just as stupid as "ganking". 

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We still need more easy access to the action in OW. Maybe some kind of a Trafalgar place... PB is too long waiting and too heavy and only for elite-players. I'm not talking about dropping PB just that the rest of us can experience the fun in large battles as well.

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4 minutes ago, fox2run said:

We still need more easy access to the action in OW. Maybe some kind of a Trafalgar place... PB is too long waiting and too heavy and only for elite-players. I'm not talking about dropping PB just that the rest of us can experience the fun in large battles as well.

If you want large battles you need to sail in a large group.. I'm sure if you go to a nations capital in a 10-25 man group they will gather up and fight you. 

Or you can take part in the "Screening" at Port Battles, afaik they often get large fights. 

There is also "Large Battles" which you can try and get people to join by using Global Chat.

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8 minutes ago, fox2run said:

Been there done that. The nation chat is dead. I can muster max 2-3 players at La Navasse. And only by waaaaiting for a loooong time. No one goes pvp unless PBs these days.

Face it. For casuals this is a dead fish. 

The RoE isn't the problem. Face it. (What kind of argument is this lol)

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When they cut joining timers, players dropped from 2000 online to 3-500. It's a fact. Why? The OW got dull and empty. Instead if having a fight (naval action, right?), this line came up:

 

"Battle is closed"

Uhmm. This means that someone is having a lot fun, but you can't participate. This seems to be pretty much the setup with a game which gameplay rely solely on TS RvR.

It's a horrible setup. TS should be candy on top of the cake not a core mechanism to have some naval battles as one should expect in a game like this.

The problem is that the players in here are usually veterans and think it's ok with a lot of restrictions that put their RvR in front of common players that simply don't understand anything at all. (Not in the elite club). 90% never makes it pass Ceberus level. This must be a matter of concern, no?

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1 minute ago, fox2run said:

When they cut joining timers, players dropped from 2000 online to 3-500. It's a fact. Why? The OW got dull and empty. Instead if having a fight (naval action, right?), this line came up:

 

"Battle is closed"

Uhmm. This means that someone is having a lot fun, but you can't participate. This seems to be pretty much the setup with a game which gameplay rely solely on TS RvR.

It's a horrible setup. TS should be candy on top of the cake not a core mechanism to have some naval battles as one should expect in a game like this.

The problem is that the players in here are usually veterans and think it's ok with a lot of restrictions that put their RvR in front of common players that simply don't understand anything at all. (Not in the elite club). 90% never makes it pass Ceberus level. This must be a matter of concern, no?

Omg fox, don't say timers was the reason people left. Every game at the beginning has tons of players then loses them.  Look at Dead By Daylight, you cannot even find a match anymore. Blackwake came out yesterday, they needed to add a bunch of new servers.  I bet in 1 month they are down to 1/4 of the amount of people yesterday. In my opinion, this game takes too much time for any casual player that just wants to hop on and have a naval battle.  

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59 minutes ago, fox2run said:

We still need more easy access to the action in OW. Maybe some kind of a Trafalgar place... PB is too long waiting and too heavy and only for elite-players. I'm not talking about dropping PB just that the rest of us can experience the fun in large battles as well.

Something like the fights you seem to be asking for you can sometimes get in the Deep Water PvP event.

But you're asking for big, chaotic fights, with every man for himself, no organisation or tactics. Maybe you'll love the new pirate v pirate battles when they arrive. But in the meantime the enemy in large fights is always going to be organised - usually on TS - and that means your way you are always going to loose to better organised opponents. Groups of danish players go out and find large fights every day, outside of RvR. I see them in the Danish Teamspeak. But whether they are good players individually or less good, they organise, because they want to have fun together, and they also want to have a chance to win. 

What you need to do is find your own group of players to go out with, and you need to either lead them yourself or find a leader. I have nothing against you fox2run, and I try to always be friendly and polite to you, but part of your problem is that you have made for yourself a reputation for being an unreliable captain. For leaving friendlies behind to die, for ignoring tactics in battles and for sabotaging friendlies. That may be why only 2-3 players are willing to meet up with you in La Navasse. 

Edited by Anolytic
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Hmmm. Thats plain nuts. I'm talking about mechanisms that the RvR community doesn't like. You tried to control other players and made alliances on your own. Those who attacked you friends got rogue status. 

So after making a clan who chosed to actually fight on the enemies of own choosing, you tried to put me in a bad light. Just becourse we attacked your TS friends from other nations as the French. I have never really left anyone to die in a battle. The opposite has pretty much been the case though. I remember loosing a Victory as I tried to help DANVE clan. They just left and accused me of being a spy. Very mature behaviour.  But again.

Obviously a game that base itself on RvR is not working as rumors can isolate players. 

The whole idea that TS is needed to fight organized is not necessarily the case by the way.

Maybe the battles I'm looking for more chaotic in your eyes but why on earth should I be part of your role-playing mombo-jumbo just to actually see big battles. 

That I don't get.

Please make some good stuff for us casuals that does not meet the elites demands for how and when to play.

Place the RvR where it belongs and not as core mechanism for large battle. Read what Analytics just wrote. As a customer I have to come to me knees and beg for mercy to the ruling guys. In other games I simply just press point and enter a battle.

We need a good game independent on the leading clans.

It is that simple.

Oh. And the rumor stuff.... Have you at any point been in a battle where I fled the field? Do you have any witnesses on such a thing? Any YouTube cuts? Reports? No. Such material does not exist.

Maybe you should stay on topic m8.

Edited by fox2run
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57 minutes ago, fox2run said:

You tried to control other players and made alliances on your own. 

I don't control anyone, and I never did any diplomacy on my own.

57 minutes ago, fox2run said:

So after making a clan who chosed to actually fight on the enemies of own choosing, you tried to put me in a bad light. Just becourse we attacked your TS friends from other nations.

I never tried to put you in a bad light. You did that all on your own. I've sometimes even defended you to others.

57 minutes ago, fox2run said:

I have never really left anyone to die.

[...]

Have you at any point been in a battle where I fled the field? Do you have any witnesses on such a thing? Any YouTube cuts? Reports? No. Such material does not exist.

I'm glad you asked...

I once joined you in a group. Back when we were both just noobs in VIE. Being in the fastest ship, I did the tag. Then you asked me to get the 3rd rate tagged so he couldn't escape. Right after, you decided that you didn't want that fight after all, so you escaped and asked the others to follow you. Only one player didn't and stayed to try and help me, because I was already engaged and couldn't just escape. Eventually I sank.

 

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57 minutes ago, fox2run said:

The whole idea that TS is needed to fight organized is not necessarily the case by the way.

It's kind of funny you should say that.

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57 minutes ago, fox2run said:

Maybe the battles I'm looking for more chaotic in your eyes but why on earth should I be part of your role-playing mombo-jumbo just to actually see big battles

You are free to play the game as you like, and nobody is telling you to play it any different way. But you cannot force others to play it the way you want them to either.

Edited by Anolytic
Messed up the formating.
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On 2/23/2017 at 2:53 PM, Aegir said:

Isn't there a risk with this system that offensive screening (catching the defending PB fleet) could become quite effective?

For example, if an offensive screening fleet is of the same size as a PB fleet, what's to stop them from just parking in front of the enemy port and tagging the defending fleet once they step outside? Since there's no one around capable of tagging them.

nothing so far as i can see

 

On 2/24/2017 at 5:10 AM, Hethwill said:

Allies should only be able to access a third of any possible resource production in an allied port. Simulates own trade protective laws even against trustful diplomatic allies.

Force trade. Force feed the need for whatever.

 

i don't like it unless they re-balance the map, live oak for example 

 

On 2/25/2017 at 9:28 AM, fox2run said:

Place the RvR where it belongs and not as core mechanism for large battle. Read what Analytics just wrote. As a customer I have to come to me knees and beg for mercy to the ruling guys. In other games I simply just press point and enter a battle.

you can join any PB you want if you have hostility points, but don't be surprised if the other players on the team get mad if you did not participate in the organization and want to just do your own thing.  RvR is a team game,  Your not on the outside because of mechanics, your on the outside because you ignore the social rules of the game.

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