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Hotfix 5 for patch 9.97 - event changes + minor fixes

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10 minutes ago, EliteDelta said:

@Wind Your comment about 3:1 isn't true. If NONE of the individual shots are penetratrating, those masts will never fall.

I have tested it myself. If you take 3 guys in light frigates and kite from range, you will chew anyones sails. It's just a mater of time. Since Naval Action uses only 1 repair system (many people exploit it by dragging time demasting) and once victim used a sail repair it's over for him. I like what Devs did, this gives people in heavier ships a chance vs a wolf pack. Nerfing sail damage forces gankers to come close and fight broadside to broadside and this is what is causing public outrage. Why? because people got used to easy kills and forgot how much it hurts if you come close around a 4th rate, so they stick to range kiting. Range kiting is a huge time consumer for other players and is very bad for this game. On the other hand, you can still try to kite at closer ranges, but eventually heavier ship will start chewing your armor and odds will get more even. 

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Just now, Wind said:

I have tested it myself. If you take 3 guys in light frigates and kite from range, you will chew anyones sails. It's just a mater of time. Since Naval Action uses only 1 repair system (many people exploit it by dragging time demasting). Nerfing sail damage forces gankers to come close and fight broadside to broadside and this is what is causing public outrage. 

A) Not outraged, just annoyed.

B ) Demasting and sail damage are entirely different creatures.

C) Afaik, sail damage was not nerfed and not what we're discussing, it's the ability to damage masts at any range that doesn't involve sticking one's bow up the enemy's stern.

D) If you really want a game that boils down to just sailing up close side-to-side and slugging it out, we're going to painfully disagree on -many- topics. Broadside slugfests are the least interesting part of naval combat.

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1 minute ago, Wind said:

I have tested it myself. If you take 3 guys in light frigates and kite from range, you will chew anyones sails. It's just a mater of time. Since Naval Action uses only 1 repair system (many people exploit it by dragging time demasting). Nerfing sail damage forces gankers to come close and fight broadside to broadside and this is what is causing public outrage. 

I agree that sail damage will happen, but the masts won't fall. 

It is true that damage can be done without penetrating, but even 3 frigates (with 18lb long cannons) vs 1 conni won't be enough damage to knock down any masts - because the shots won't be penetrating.

 

I am only arguing against the thickness increase, not the hp (life). Increasing ho just means it would take a little longer to demast, which could be okay.

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17 minutes ago, EliteDelta said:

I agree that sail damage will happen, but the masts won't fall. 

It is true that damage can be done without penetrating, but even 3 frigates (with 18lb long cannons) vs 1 conni won't be enough damage to knock down any masts - because the shots won't be penetrating.

 

I am only arguing against the thickness increase, not the hp (life). Increasing ho just means it would take a little longer to demast, which could be okay.

Now I did think about this, and to make everyone happy I would just add 1 tiny hit box per mast for each section. When player builds a ship hit boxes are spread out randomly along each mast section (historically every wood had it's weak point) each ship would be unique. Starting from the top hit box would be the largest, but still small. Now let's say we have 8 hit boxes on a frigate. To strike that hit box you will need luck, and if you do strike it, it will be considered a 'critical hit and mast will fall. This should be very rare case in 1vs1, rare in 6vs1 and doable in Port Battles where you get broadsides from 25 1st rates what equals to 25x chance increase to do a 'critical hit' on mast and bring it down . ;) 

Critical hit bonus should be rewarded accordingly.

I hope Devs can read this. 

 

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3 minutes ago, Wind said:

Now I did think about this, and to make everyone happy I would just add 1 tiny hit box per mast for each section. When player builds a ship hit boxes are spread out randomly along each mast section (historically every wood had it's weak point) each ship would be unique. Starting from the top hit box would be the largest, but still small. Now let's we will have 8 hit boxes on a frigate. To strike that hit box you will need luck, and if you do strike it, it will be considered a 'critical hit and mast will fall. This should be very rare case in 1vs1, rare in 6vs1 and doable in Port Battles where you get broadsides from 25 1st rates. ;) 

I hope Devs can read this. 

 

I can tell you don't want demasting to exist, so we are not going to agree. However the vast majority of players disagree with your opinion on demasting.

The critical hit idea sounds too much like luck for my taste. The system we had was working, it didn't need to be changed.

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7 minutes ago, EliteDelta said:

I can tell you don't want demasting to exist, so we are not going to agree. However the vast majority of players disagree with your opinion on demasting.

The critical hit idea sounds too much like luck for my taste. The system we had was working, it didn't need to be changed.

Most of the people want gank to thrive , so it can kill this game before it reaches the final stage. It's fine with me, I am just providing ideas that would work for both pvp and pve people. Currently we only hear pvp crowd complaining. 

My suggestion only touches 'want to see mast fall' area. You can still demast a player with 3 Frigates even after buff. 

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9 minutes ago, Wind said:

Most of the people want gank to thrive , so it can kill this game before it reaches the final stage. It's fine with me, I am just providing ideas that would work for both pvp and pve people. Currently we only hear pvp crowd complaining. 

My suggestion only touches 'want to see mast fall' area. You can still demast a player with 3 Frigates even after buff. 

So the only way to demast in this scenario would be by ganking someone. That logic doesn't make any sense.. It should still be a viable tactic in 1v1 fights of similar sized ships. I'm fine with demasting being tricky, but I don't want it to be impossible.

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@Wind Dude, we aren't talking about the gank. You wanna talk about thriving gank, let's talk about the absurd brokenness of Pirate-based speed builds that can deny or prevent escape in any action due to absurd stacking speed buffs (only available to pirates through the Pirate perk - 15-knot connies. Useless 1v1, but they never do or have to fight 1v1 anyway).

Furthermore, I very rarely pvp as it is. My total number of PvP kills or captures I could probably count on one hand since I picked up NA in February, and that's including port battles. You seem to be under this impression that whatever the Devs come out with and whatever decisions they make are infalliable edicts from heaven, and that everyone who speaks against them want to drag the game down a dark alley and shank it in the kidneys.

Back on topic, though, no - the randomized hitboxes for critical weak points is not a good idea, and too small to really make a difference. The core point at hand is that the range of doing reliable mast damage to ships of equivalent size is too short - at 50m or less, one can't even bring all of their guns to bear at a single point, so even hitting masts at a range that might be effective is practically implausible. My vote is to maybe give masts another 20% buff on top of this one, but drop their thickness back to somewhere around October levels. Yes, taking out another ship's masts should be a challenge and a deliberate tactical decision, and one that shouldn't be able to be performed outside of, say, 250m for ships of equivalent class, but one should not have to see the whites of their eyes in order to do effective damage to their masts.

To quote Maxim 22: If you can see the whites of their eyes, somebody's done something wrong.

Edit:

4 minutes ago, EliteDelta said:

So the only way to demast in this scenario would be by ganking someone. That logic doesn't make any sense.. It should still be a viable tactic in 1v1 fights of similar sized ships. I'm fine with demasting being tricky, but I don't want it to be impossible.

Yeah, that's a fine point. Complains about gankers being a problem, proposes ganking using 3v1 numbers.

Edited by Kiithnaras
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5 minutes ago, Wind said:

Most of the people want gank to thrive , so it can kill this game before it reaches the final stage. It's fine with me, I am just providing ideas that would work for both pvp and pve people. Currently we only hear pvp crowd complaining. 

Wind I respect your opinion but we should not be using mast thickness as a mechanism to balance or counter "ganking". You are advocating removing or altering an element of the combat model that provides an element of historical realism to enforce gameplay protections. It won't help you in the examples you suggest because as others have pointed out they will just use chain anyway. I would bet that is what most people do now.

Your suggestion that this shouldn't happen in 1v1 is incorrect. In most well recorded single ship duals the losing ship lost masts and both ships had rigging cut up. I agree that it should be very hard to kite an entire mast down from long range but at closer ranges standing rigging got shot away and masts fell. Justifying a 24 lb ball not penetrating a mast at close range because it helps avoid ganking just doesn't hold water.

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28 minutes ago, Kiithnaras said:

@Wind Dude, we aren't talking about the gank. You wanna talk about thriving gank, let's talk about the absurd brokenness of Pirate-based speed builds that can deny or prevent escape in any action due to absurd stacking speed buffs (only available to pirates through the Pirate perk - 15-knot connies. Useless 1v1, but they never do or have to fight 1v1 anyway).

Furthermore, I very rarely pvp as it is. My total number of PvP kills or captures I could probably count on one hand since I picked up NA in February, and that's including port battles. You seem to be under this impression that whatever the Devs come out with and whatever decisions they make are infalliable edicts from heaven, and that everyone who speaks against them want to drag the game down a dark alley and shank it in the kidneys.

Back on topic, though, no - the randomized hitboxes for critical weak points is not a good idea, and too small to really make a difference. The core point at hand is that the range of doing reliable mast damage to ships of equivalent size is too short - at 50m or less, one can't even bring all of their guns to bear at a single point, so even hitting masts at a range that might be effective is practically implausible. My vote is to maybe give masts another 20% buff on top of this one, but drop their thickness back to somewhere around October levels. Yes, taking out another ship's masts should be a challenge and a deliberate tactical decision, and one that shouldn't be able to be performed outside of, say, 250m for ships of equivalent class, but one should not have to see the whites of their eyes in order to do effective damage to their masts.

To quote Maxim 22: If you can see the whites of their eyes, somebody's done something wrong.

Edit:

Yeah, that's a fine point. Complains about gankers being a problem, proposes ganking using 3v1 numbers.

Other option is to keep everything like it was before, but Devs have to add Penalty to mast damage or mast Buff (what we have now) when ratio is not 1:1. In other words, when 2 players ganking 1 player (2:1) then: Victim sails are buffed to what we have now, but if it's a 1vs1 then system should keep stats the same as it was pre patch. I know many other games use similar penalties when numbers are uneven. It should not matter what ships are used, once ratio goes over 1:1 buff for smaller numbers should kick in.. I just wonder if it's hard to code such balance system. 

Example :

1:1 pre patch mast damage/health 

1:2 current buff to sails (1 is buffed)

2:2 pre patch mast damage/health

2:3 current buff to sails (2 are buffed) 

(Ship size does not matter)

Note, if battle starts with 2:2 ratio it will remain at pre patch mast damage. When 1 player is killed battle will become 2:1, but buff should not kick in in this case. In case reinforcements join and numbers become uneven again system should buff smaller number again and give larger chances to survive demast to weaker team.  

If battle starts with 3:2 ratio it will automatically buff 2 player sails and will remain through the battle.  

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1 minute ago, Wind said:

Other option is to keep everything like it was before, but Devs have to add Penalty to mast damage or mast Buff when ratio is not 1:1. In other words, when 3 players ganking 1 player (3:1) then: Victim sails are buffed to what we have now, but if it's a 1vs1 then system should keep stats the same as it was. 

I'm getting tired of arguing on this point, so I'll just leave this and go do something else that's actually enjoyable: This is dumb. As @DeRuyter just said, altering the combat model to enforce gameplay protections is silly and won't solve the problem. A 3v1 is still a 3v1, and if you allowed yourself to be caught unawares by 3 other ships with no reasonable way out or backup, then shame on you. It sucks being on the receiving end of that - I know, I speak from personal experience. But that's why the Surrender option is there. The "I know I'm going to lose this, might as well get it over with" option. Or just go with plan F-it and slug it out the best you can, anyway. Who knows, maybe you'll take one of them out or shred their crew sufficiently to make your loss as painful as possible for them.

The heart of the matter is that you are using this arguing point as a means to mitigate so-called ganking that relies on a numerical advantage by altering game mechanics to protect the individual from the masses. I feel that this position is erroneous. Having a numerical advantage is purely and simply, a numerical advantage. The disadvantaged does not and should not magically receive a sudden buff in strength or durability just because they're outnumbered. In fact, I find it even more fun fighting at a numerical disadvantage with sound engagement tactics in order to still pull off the satisfying underdog victory.

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7 minutes ago, Wind said:

Other option is to keep everything like it was before, but Devs have to add Penalty to mast damage or mast Buff (what we have now) when ratio is not 1:1. In other words, when 2 players ganking 1 player (2:1) then: Victim sails are buffed to what we have now, but if it's a 1vs1 then system should keep stats the same as it was pre patch. I know many other games use similar penalties when numbers are uneven. It should not matter what ships are used, once ratio goes over 1:1 buff for smaller numbers should kick in.. I just wonder if it's hard to code such balance system. 

Good god, why?  What would possess you to change the combat rules in a way that would vary the outcome of the exact same broadside on a ship's masts just because there are two other ships in the engagement beyond standoff range?  Does this make any sense at all?

I really don't see where demasting was overpowered prior to the patch. We must be playing entirely different games, as even engagements with certified mast snipers didn't devolve into mast shooting. It was viable, but not overpowered against other strategies. Roll it back.

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12 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Good god, why?  What would possess you to change the combat rules in a way that would vary the outcome of the exact same broadside on a ship's masts just because there are two other ships in the engagement beyond standoff range?  Does this make any sense at all?

I really don't see where demasting was overpowered prior to the patch. We must be playing entirely different games, as even engagements with certified mast snipers didn't devolve into mast shooting. It was viable, but not overpowered against other strategies. Roll it back.

Just trying to throw some ideas here, so gank is fixed. Ganking goes side by side with demasting/masts .It's like a twin brother. So, when you making changes to one it will effect the other one. :)  Devs asked in past to keep providing ideas that might fix the problem. 

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1 minute ago, Wind said:

Just trying to throw some ideas here, so gank is fixed. Ganking goes side by side with demasting .It's like a twin brother. So, when you making changes to one it will effect the other one. :) 

No! This won't stop ganking at all.. 

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1 minute ago, Wind said:

Just trying to throw some ideas here, so gank is fixed. Ganking goes side by side with demasting .It's like a twin brother. So, when you making changes to one it will effect the other one. :) 

I'm fine with ideas... :) But I just don't see ganking in the same way that you do I think. If you're overhauled by two or three faster ships and can't chain them down (or actually demast them yourself) fast enough... that's part of the game.  I don't define "ganking" as getting caught by a hunting pack of even up to 3-4 ships.  If I'm alone and caught by a superior force through open world chase, so be it. By reducing demasting you're actually encouraging smaller ship vs. larger ship engagements because it further enables stern camping.

A "gank" for me, and one that's unfun is when I'm caught by some cheap game mechanics by a fleet I didn't know was there (e.g. exit battle screen and have 25 guys waiting for me when 10 minutes before there were zero, or attack someone at a port and 10 more ships pop out and join battle when I thought I was getting a 1v1, etc.). But it's all PvP and should all be fair game in an open world PvP game.

It's when the mechanics are enabling these type of unexpected engagements do I think there needs to be a mechanics fix, not when I can see it coming.

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4 minutes ago, Wind said:

Explain why?

Because people can chain. This is what large ganking groups typically do. It's quicker, takes less effort, and is effective. 

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5 minutes ago, Wind said:

Just trying to throw some ideas here, so gank is fixed. Ganking goes side by side with demasting/masts .It's like a twin brother. So, when you making changes to one it will effect the other one. :)  Devs asked in past to keep providing ideas that might fix the problem. 

Why not just lower the points for bigger groups depending on their BR in comparison to the enemy in the PvP zone instead? It got suggested a lot of times already and has no disadvantage. Meanwhile mast buffs wont change a thing about ganking since most gankers shoot sails anyways (immediate effect -> your friends can close up faster to the victim).

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10 minutes ago, EliteDelta said:

Because people can chain. This is what large ganking groups typically do. It's quicker, takes less effort, and is effective. 

So, here is our problem. Isn't it? >>>Chain<<<

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11 minutes ago, JonSnowLetsGo said:

Why not just lower the points for bigger groups depending on their BR in comparison to the enemy in the PvP zone instead? It got suggested a lot of times already and has no disadvantage. Meanwhile mast buffs wont change a thing about ganking since most gankers shoot sails anyways (immediate effect -> your friends can close up faster to the victim).

Like I said, many people point fingers at Chain shot. So, it is clear that chain needs balancing. 

Sorry for off topic, your signature has the wrong statement about wolves. :(

copyhttp://www.freakingnews.com/pictures/110000/Wolf-Tricks-in-the-Circus--110106.jpgpaste

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Yes, let's take chaining out now...

 

These changes ruin regular play more than they ruin gank play.  Why?  Because gankers still have the numbers to eventually accomplish it.

 

No amount of changing combat will stop ganks.  It must be solved in another fashion.  Every change to combat affects fair play and 1v1 play, which is something we do not want to touch.

Edited by Prater
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9 minutes ago, Prater said:

Yes, let's take chaining out now...

 

These changes ruin regular play more than they ruin gank play.  Why?  Because gankers still have the numbers to eventually accomplish it.

 

No amount of changing combat will stop ganks.  It must be solved in another fashion.

So, why Devs made the change? If Ganker numbers are larger then we need to somehow help the victim who is being ganked. 1. if numbers 3:1 nerf sail damage on chainshot/ball 2. if numbers 1:1 let it be. Is it that hard?

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What's the point in OW when every fight is 1:1? Why not delete OW then and make this game another WoT clone? Forcing fair fights is super quick way to losing players who are interested in OW and everything that brings to the table including fighting when outnumbered and outgunned. Every ******* military academy teaches you to create and fight from advantageous position, and when in disadvantage to retreat and regroup. Forcing 3:1 into 1:1 is so idiotic that english language doesn't even have a word to describe magnitude of that idiocy! Im shocked that anyone can defend this change :blink:

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