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Battle screen camping, log off camping - final proposal

Log off camping/BR screen camping is a problem  

165 members have voted

  1. 1. Log off camping/BR screen camping is a problem

    • Yes
      111
    • No
      52


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4 hours ago, Cmdr RideZ said:

Invisibility of 5s would help when trying to run from revenge gank.  It wont help much, but it would help already.

1

No, not at all. Have you ever thought about the fact that the loading times for different players vary much more than 5s? 5 seconds is barely enough time to raise sails. 

I have sometimes problems wih my Ipv6-Connection, where sometimes loading takes up to 2 minutes and very rarely i have to log-in again. A friend of mine does not have an SSD and has very long loading times for the OW. 

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I like the Escape suggestion, so it has my vote.

I don't like the 30 min PB ban. That alone is not a good solution imo. If that is implemented I fear that I would no longer be able to enter port battles, because of screening fleets. I play this game for the 25 vs 25 PBs. If you decide to test PB ban, you need to do some thing about the screening fleets. Because now it is to easy to drag an attacking port battle fleet into battle. If the ships in the screening fleet sink they respawn in the port. Then they sail out again, wait for the atatcking fleet to leave battle screen, then repeat until the PB is over.
I really want to be able to sail into a position in the battle and leave, then enter OW in that position. So in theory an attacking PB fleet could engage and sink the screening fleet, then sail closer to the port. Leave the battle and enter the port battle. Then the screening fleet gets their fight and the PB guys get their fight.   

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I like both solutions, but I do agree that something needs to be done regarding screening. 

I do think port battles should be able to be screened out and I think it adds more tactics to the game, but there should be some mechanism to stop the defender sending out wave after wave of screeners in 1 dura ships just to delay the port battle ships long enough.

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I think the proposed solution for battle screen timeout is excellent considering all the varied demands of the player base.

I'm not quite so sure about the port battle log off issue. I do agree with Tiedemann that the defenders home port re-spawn advantage needs nerfed if you implement a 30 PB ban after log in.

Perhaps you could have a coincidental mechanic allowing the tagged PB fleet to exit directly into the PB "IF THEY WIN" the screening fight.

IOW - 25 ships log in far enough off to reach the port as PB starts - they are tagged by screen fleet - in 12 min they are able to beat the screen fleet well enough to escape - they can escape directly into the PB but the PB timer now has 12 min run off (the run off could be limited to 1/2 hour to limit this nerf).

Rewards the PB fleet for quickly defeating the screening fleet, rewards the screening fleet for delaying the PB fleet, but precludes endless spawn attacks - the PB fleet only has to fight it's way through the one screening fleet to get a PB.

-----

The flag system could also have been made to work .............Just needed a limit on false flags and to be mixed in with the hostility generation system.

Edited by Magnum
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8 hours ago, admin said:

Proposals

Escape (BR screen camping and revenge gank escape)

Forced 5 or maybe 10 minute timer is great!.... but as Wraith says not to port - spawn at battle location. OW and battle uses same map so this should be simple

Log off before battles/port battles

Why make it complicated ?? 2 hours before a PB all logins will be bounced to a random point 50NM from the contested port. This both solves people sailing to location a day before and places them far enough away for screening to be a viable tactic.

 

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4 hours ago, Jonnydread said:

No, not at all. Have you ever thought about the fact that the loading times for different players vary much more than 5s? 5 seconds is barely enough time to raise sails. 

I have sometimes problems wih my Ipv6-Connection, where sometimes loading takes up to 2 minutes and very rarely i have to log-in again. A friend of mine does not have an SSD and has very long loading times for the OW. 

They could sync it.  Exit as a group button to BR Screen.  Wait that all have loaded the game and ready, and then pop out.

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1 hour ago, Blaatand said:

 

 

There is a problem with that.

I tried to sail 60 minutes in battle, the game doesnt render that far so you crash,

If the game manages to render that far, then you can safely travel everywhere you want with no risk.
 

Edited by Nash

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I like both proposals, and would support implementation.  Yes, they're not perfect.  And no doubt some enterprising folks will find new ways to "break" the intended spirit of these changes.  But I think they're both far better than what we have now.

As far as the second proposal...I don't know that we need a 30-min lockout.  There are some ports (St George's Town, as most obvious example) which take a long time to get to.  I don't begrudge folks coming to attack us there the opportunity to make that multi-hour sail at a time which works best for them.  What annoys defenders is the inability to screen; the log-in and immediate PB-join without complete avoidance of intercept.  

I would propose instead a 5-min or 10-min lockout, so that there's a window during which screeners can intercept.  This would preserve the attractiveness of getting a battlefleet to a predetermined long-distance location via individual sails, and then enter OW in a coordinated fashion.  But they still have to deal with the defensive screen...instead of bypass it with impunity.  On the other hand...making the attack fleet dodge screeners for a full 30 min seems a bit much.

That said...I would still support the 30-min lockout as described in OP as far preferable to what we have now...which is screen irrelevance (and therefore less opportunity for other players besides those in the actual PB battle fleets to meaningfully contribute).

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2 hours ago, Nash said:

 

There is a problem with that.

I tried to sail 60 minutes in battle, the game doesnt render that far so you crash,

If the game manages to render that far, then you can safely travel everywhere you want with no risk.
 

I don't get you....???

Renders??? speed in battle instance is 1/1 and the fastest ship is 14knots - that means 14NM in one hour....

I have also done that and it "rendered" fine - running from a pirate fleet with my trader for an hour and a half..... and they were waiting when I got out .......

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Battle Escape A: 5 minutes limit to Battle Screen and then default TP to nearest friendly port or drop into Open World. This is a great suggestion. +100

How is Logout in OW "not near" battle instance determined. Is this random?

Battle Escape B: My suggestion is give the sailor the option to remain in the Battle Instance and continue sailing in a direction until he decides to leave or the Battle timer runs out...he can then drop to Battle Screen and then TP to nearest friendly port or drop into the OW in the position he had achieved in Battle.

Log off before battles/port battles: This is also a great suggestion. Does this apply to all/any Battles and Port Battles? If so I like it coz it also will kill what was BS camp/ganking outside ports. +100

Edited by Sir William Hargood
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1. BATTLESCREEN

Making a teleport possible for WARSHIPS after XY minutes when the battle is done, you will create a gankers paradise.If this kind of escape, then it should only be available for TRADERS.

A full loaded TRADER,has less speed,hopes to sell his goods, is IN GENERAL disadvantaged, and if he escapes from battle, he should be "rewarded" with possibility to teleport and save his goods.

WARSHIPS : 10 min time should be allowed for any WARSHIP staying in battlescreen,but after that, you are again in OW, with extended time given where you can be tagged.

If you escape again, "tag time" is doubled. Escape again, tagging time doubles again.  In my opinion thats a fair chance for any WARSHIP, if fast enough, to escape.

Sorry guys, if you want to "gank" you need to take a risk,being "ganked". And this shouldnt be easy.

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15 hours ago, Hodo said:

The invisibility idea was a good one.  Doing a limited time invisibility when leaving the battle.  Of up to the tag immunity time of 20sec.   This gives you more than enough time to get out of range.   

100% agree

forced the player to leave the screen battle after 5mn and then give him enought time to try to escape in the open world without being tagged ( same as port exit).

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18 hours ago, admin said:

 

Log off before battles/port battles

PB entry timer can be implemented. If you log off at sea, when you login you will receive a port battle entry lock blocking you form entering port battles for lets say 30 mins. This lock can be removed by entering any friendly/allied port. 

This solution is not elegant. Disconnects count as log off and if you sail to port battle and suddenly disconnect you will have to sail back to friendly port to remove the timer or wait for significant time. So players with not stable connections will suffer a lot and this will cause a lot of frustration.

 

For this to even be considered in my opinion the screening need to be changed, the way it works now is that defender undock in waves tag with the big roe tag and drag in just to delay so next guy can do the same, this is no skill involved in and is something that has been used alot and that is why ppl log off infront of port..

Also this is very unrealistic as the defending port would not send ships out in waves just to delay or die, aswell there was no port that unlimited access to ships, so if u want to keep port battles around then this need to be fixed.. if u implement your change without changing screening then there will be no more port battles..

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Agreed with the proposition from Admin, both on the log off and on BS.

One note, require the person using the TP option to nearest friendly port, to empty hold (aside from health & medkits), to prevent a guy getting his precious cargo stolen and the thief then just escaping and TP'ing.

On those commenting screening is impossible to stop, last time we tried to take salamanca the spanish & allies even started logging in amongst the attacking fleet. And we still nearly made it to the battle if it hadn't closed after 13 minutes. Screening worked back when we had flags, should work just the same now. We can't go to a system where every battle requires you to log out hours in advance.

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Transform the entire area into a PvP "event". Make a Enter Port trigger inside the event.

For game balance purposes Lock entrance or exit from Port. After all the port is under siege by a enemy fleet.

So the Defenders that are already there are already there, if reinforcement are needed they will have to sail to the event and then battle through and make your way into Port. Same with attacker fleet.

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As said log out/in is the only way actually to join a pb for an attacking fleet.

i can't remember a 25v25 without log/in/out fleets.

log out/in is an attacking abuse tactic.

Tp in port one minute before battle is en defensive abuse tactic.

 

if you wan.t to fix the problem consider it globally. In case of port battlé defender should not be allownot to in before the pb.

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I think your solution to bs is probably the best but you should be able to retain your cargo.If someone has attacked, defeated, and captured you they should not be subject to revenge fleets camping outside battle screen.I have never participated in  a port battle so i won t offer any opinion on that solution.

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16 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

Transform the entire area into a PvP "event". Make a Enter Port trigger inside the event.

For game balance purposes Lock entrance or exit from Port. After all the port is under siege by a enemy fleet.

So the Defenders that are already there are already there, if reinforcement are needed they will have to sail to the event and then battle through and make your way into Port. Same with attacker fleet.

Would be OK, as long as the defending PB fleet can insta join the PB (get out of port and immediatly join the PB). Caus otherwise the defending PB fleet can be "screened" by the attackers. And in ports that have a narrow bay, that might be a tad too easy.

This could create some interesting tactics.

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Both proposals are an excellent idea! Regarding the second solution not being elegant; this need not be the case: If a person re-logs within 3-5 minutes after logging out without using the 'Wait' option (i.e. disconnect), the PB entry timer won't apply. If a person logs out using the 'Wait' option (i.e. controlled logout), or re-logs more than 5 minutes after logout, the PB entry timer should apply.

One would like to achieve a certain level of realism, but on the other hand it is a game, not a simulator and realism should therefore not be at the cost of entertainment. Your proposal strikes a good balance in my opinion.

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On 6-12-2016 at 6:25 PM, sruPL said:

Log off camping yes, but logout option should be added to the game officially. Here is my suggestion:

 

1. Logging out in battlescreen is important feature and there should be also official button, instead of using Alt+F4 or killing game proccess or whatever else players tend to do. But it should be limited! For example player can logout once every 6-12 hours (needs consideration what's the sweet spot). It's understandable that 1 battle can take 1,5 hour and after that player must leave game. But on the other side, it cannot be overused as advantage all the time, few times during one day. Official button + cooldown time for another use of it.

 

i understand what your issue is with this but if you want to log out of the game you can do that by teleporting to a port and then log out ,also why would you want to log out in battle screen other then coming back later to out run the revenge fleet and start sinking weaker players then you are, if you need to log out because you have other shit to do you can teleport to a port and log out there.

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This ais a reasonable solution, although the line drop-penalty is going to be frustrating for me. It is bad enough losing an officers life more often, without the penalty as described. But it is still a reasonable solution. Give it a go...

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On 6-12-2016 at 6:48 PM, Hethwill said:

I never saw any issue with it, cast my vote as Ni but...

... if anything must be done, and without imposing any limits, by all means place the ship/ships in the port.

Logoff before PBs seems perfectly acceptable and truly reasonable with the 30 mins.

logg off infront of the port and entering the PB after 20 sec is not fair for the sceening fleet 

this game is about sailing ....so you sail to the port to get in, just like the old flag conquest mechanic

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On 6-12-2016 at 6:23 PM, admin said:

Hello everyone. 

There are no easy solutions to this problem without ruining some other things. All the problems come with the time compression and some of the game mechanics interfere with attempts for elegant solutions. 

Problems

  1. People log off at sea (quality of life feature) and then log in to enter port battles or attack others
  2. People sit in battle result screen to attack others or avoid gank
  3. People wait outside to wait for someone to come out from the BR screen wasting time

The issue with 2 and 3 is caused by the following design. If you escaped you are still put into the same place in the open world totally disregarding the fact that you repositioned in battle. In reality problems 2 and 3 would never happen because if you escaped you escaped and got to port. In our game if you escaped you are still placed (punished) and placed to the same area giving attackers a second attempt to sink you. 

In addition to that if you want to continue fighting (even though you have escaped) you are forced to sit in the BR screen and attackers waiting outside are forced to wait for you playing the waiting game wasting hours of time for both. This had 2 additional problems: if you sailed with friends you will be split up from the group breaking the group and removing fun for all of you. If one of you sank and was in port another one would have to hide in the BR screen and still not have a chance to play. This breaks groups up and creates less pvp as a result.

We have thought long about the fixes and here are the potential solutions. We warn in advance that there are no easy solutions and some quality of life might suffer in rare cases. Please be constructive and open minded when thinking about it. Those are not very elegant solutions but all 3 above mentioned problems will be solved.

 

Proposals

Escape (BR screen camping and revenge gank escape)

If you escaped the battle you no longer will be placed in the same spot in the open world - if you escaped you escaped. No need to try to give someone a second chance to get you. To do so we will give the player the option to either exit to the open world or teleport him to the certain friendly port (for example nearest friendly port).  That's what would real life captain would do in case of certain danger - try to escape to the nearest friendly port. Thus the player will have lets say 5 mins to decide if he wants to exit to the OW, if he did not make this choice he will be escape to port. 

TLDR: BR screen will force you to the nearest friendly port if you have not chosen to enter OW within 5 mins.

I personally like this solution a lot as it solves a lot of problems and actually makes life easier for mission runners, pve players and small groups pvpers. Some might say that it will allow more fast travel options for people but maybe its not a bad thing as the main goal is to waste less time and pvp/pve more. 

Log off before battles/port battles

PB entry timer can be implemented. If you log off at sea, when you login you will receive a port battle entry lock blocking you form entering port battles for lets say 30 mins. This lock can be removed by entering any friendly/allied port. 

This solution is not elegant. Disconnects count as log off and if you sail to port battle and suddenly disconnect you will have to sail back to friendly port to remove the timer or wait for significant time. So players with not stable connections will suffer a lot and this will cause a lot of frustration.

 

Lets discuss this issues constructively and decide finally if it is really a problem. We must close this door this week and stop thinking about it. 

 

very nice to see the devs finaly fixing a core issue of the game ,it realy gives me hope that this game can still be safed!!

keep up the good work especially with the new portbattle layout and land in port battles !! 

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On 6-12-2016 at 6:54 PM, Havelock said:

 

...im definetely against this. Logging of is currently a workaround because screening is way to easy. I'd advise to not implement something which makes Port Battle entry impossible before we have thougt about how we actually want PBs to be. If we want to include screening, we have to make it possible for the attacker to actually fight the screening fleet, break through and fight the PB after.

so ,f you want to let the screening fleet be a part of the operation then the second proposal is exactly what you need. it forces the enemy fleet to sail to the port instead of logging out infront of the port.

so i dont know what is so bad about the 2nd proposal?

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