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Battle screen camping, log off camping - final proposal


Log off camping/BR screen camping is a problem  

165 members have voted

  1. 1. Log off camping/BR screen camping is a problem

    • Yes
      111
    • No
      52


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Quote

 

Proposals

Escape (BR screen camping and revenge gank escape)

If you escaped the battle you no longer will be placed in the same spot in the open world - if you escaped you escaped. No need to try to give someone a second chance to get you. To do so we will give the player the option to either exit to the open world or teleport him to the certain friendly port (for example nearest friendly port).  That's what would real life captain would do in case of certain danger - try to escape to the nearest friendly port. Thus the player will have lets say 5 mins to decide if he wants to exit to the OW, if he did not make this choice he will be escape to port. 

TLDR: BR screen will force you to the nearest friendly port if you have not chosen to enter OW within 5 mins.

I personally like this solution a lot as it solves a lot of problems and actually makes life easier for mission runners, pve players and small groups pvpers. Some might say that it will allow more fast travel options for people but maybe its not a bad thing as the main goal is to waste less time and pvp/pve more. 

I go for half hour find me a target and tag him. The tag is easy to screw since the speed in the OW is pretty high. We enter the battle and I'm too far away to keep the target in the battle. He runs away and disappears in a cloud.

This is a PVP oriented game yet you somehow keep coming up with solutions to avoid PVP and encourage carebear behaviors.
Your last patch nearly killed Opportunistic PVP in the OW and people are now inclining back to lobby matches just to get pvp. Safe pvp...

This option teleporting away from the battle is going to further penalize OW pvp and decrease player base. Yes if person has escaped then he escaped the battle, but it does not mean he can't be chased again and attacked again and you are removing that. What is realistic about that?
 

 

 

Quote

Log off before battles/port battles

PB entry timer can be implemented. If you log off at sea, when you login you will receive a port battle entry lock blocking you form entering port battles for lets say 30 mins. This lock can be removed by entering any friendly/allied port. 

This solution is not elegant. Disconnects count as log off and if you sail to port battle and suddenly disconnect you will have to sail back to friendly port to remove the timer or wait for significant time. So players with not stable connections will suffer a lot and this will cause a lot of frustration.

 

Lets discuss this issues constructively and decide finally if it is really a problem. We must close this door this week and stop thinking about it. 

 

How do you address the issue that has been raised over and over again:
Small nation has NO CHANCE of defending or attacking the port because Large nation (or in case of pvp2 two large nations united) is capable of blocking the PB entry and screen.
How does this proposed solution helps the smaller nations to survive? They only thing they could do to bypass the blockade and actually enter PB was to log off outside port.
So you keep denying small nations tools and ways to survive and thus reducing people's interest to stick with the game.
 

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COUNTER-PROPOSALS
I can't see much of an issue of being able to re-tag. Its an OW. You are supposed to be far away from the shore and faster ship needs to be able to catch up. That is the danger of traveling alone. There should be fear of being alone and unprotected. There should be SOMETHING to give adrenaline. Make it safe and you can call it a PVE game.
Bye-bye all the potentials this game have.

 

On 7/12/2016 at 6:23 AM, admin said:

Problems

  1. People log off at sea (quality of life feature) and then log in to enter port battles or attack others
  2. People sit in battle result screen to attack others or avoid gank
  3. People wait outside to wait for someone to come out from the BR screen wasting time

Battlescreen Camping
Make compulsory exit after 5 minutes into the OW. If player closed the game while in battlescreen his ship automatically enters OW immediately and normal 2 min timer kicks in like if you would log off in OW now. During this timer countdown his ship can be attacked all the same.
Camping problem - SORTED

Ambush Outside Battle
Make ships travel in battle reflect the OW exit. This way ambushes will have to hard guess where the target is gonna exit. If target will be able to make it to the port in battle and escape then he will appear outside port and will be able to dock. Dont let them teleport by some short-cut game mechanics, this will bring further disappointment.
Ambush problem - SORTED

Ninja travel
To prevent people from traveling inside the battle and reappear on the other side of the region or sneak up to enemy ports, make 5 minute "no battle" timer force to exit battle. The timer kicks in when there are no enemy left in the battle or there was no damage done by enemy ship. You have a 2 min tag on which you can escape, add 5 min no tag force exit.
Ninja travel problem - SORTED

Logging off outside PB.
You do realize that this is done only because your game mechanics does not allow free entry to PB match when the port is screened, thus leaving small nation the only option to get to PB safely. Is that what you are trying to do? Penalize those who are already heavily penalized and further unbalance the community?
Instead, allow people join PB soon as they reached the region. When player enters the region and the region name appears in OW description then PB battle JOIN BUTTON appears and allows to jump straight to PB. This way players still travel to PB and are able to avoid being tagged in front of the bottleneck entry point.
People logging off in front of PB - SORTED as there will no longer be any need for that



 

Edited by koltes
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On 06/12/2016 at 5:23 PM, admin said:

Hello everyone. 

There are no easy solutions to this problem without ruining some other things. All the problems come with the time compression and some of the game mechanics interfere with attempts for elegant solutions. 

Problems

  1. People log off at sea (quality of life feature) and then log in to enter port battles or attack others
  2. People sit in battle result screen to attack others or avoid gank
  3. People wait outside to wait for someone to come out from the BR screen wasting time

The issue with 2 and 3 is caused by the following design. If you escaped you are still put into the same place in the open world totally disregarding the fact that you repositioned in battle. In reality problems 2 and 3 would never happen because if you escaped you escaped and got to port. In our game if you escaped you are still placed (punished) and placed to the same area giving attackers a second attempt to sink you. 

In addition to that if you want to continue fighting (even though you have escaped) you are forced to sit in the BR screen and attackers waiting outside are forced to wait for you playing the waiting game wasting hours of time for both. This had 2 additional problems: if you sailed with friends you will be split up from the group breaking the group and removing fun for all of you. If one of you sank and was in port another one would have to hide in the BR screen and still not have a chance to play. This breaks groups up and creates less pvp as a result.

We have thought long about the fixes and here are the potential solutions. We warn in advance that there are no easy solutions and some quality of life might suffer in rare cases. Please be constructive and open minded when thinking about it. Those are not very elegant solutions but all 3 above mentioned problems will be solved.

 

Proposals

Escape (BR screen camping and revenge gank escape)

If you escaped the battle you no longer will be placed in the same spot in the open world - if you escaped you escaped. No need to try to give someone a second chance to get you. To do so we will give the player the option to either exit to the open world or teleport him to the certain friendly port (for example nearest friendly port).  That's what would real life captain would do in case of certain danger - try to escape to the nearest friendly port. Thus the player will have lets say 5 mins to decide if he wants to exit to the OW, if he did not make this choice he will be escape to port. 

TLDR: BR screen will force you to the nearest friendly port if you have not chosen to enter OW within 5 mins.

I personally like this solution a lot as it solves a lot of problems and actually makes life easier for mission runners, pve players and small groups pvpers. Some might say that it will allow more fast travel options for people but maybe its not a bad thing as the main goal is to waste less time and pvp/pve more. 

Log off before battles/port battles

PB entry timer can be implemented. If you log off at sea, when you login you will receive a port battle entry lock blocking you form entering port battles for lets say 30 mins. This lock can be removed by entering any friendly/allied port. 

This solution is not elegant. Disconnects count as log off and if you sail to port battle and suddenly disconnect you will have to sail back to friendly port to remove the timer or wait for significant time. So players with not stable connections will suffer a lot and this will cause a lot of frustration.

 

Lets discuss this issues constructively and decide finally if it is really a problem. We must close this door this week and stop thinking about it. 

 

 

Something to allow people who escaped a battle to really escape without having to sit playing chicken in the battle end screen is definitely a positive change. I'm not sure the proposed solution is really ideal but I can't think os a better one and it's always going to be a bit of a cludge just by the nature of the game.

 

However regarding the second point, please think very very carefully before implementing a 30 minute timer for port battles. Quite apart from hugely and unfairly punishing players who don't have such a good internet connection it will also make port battles essentially a numbers game and very little else. Screening already massively favours the defender since they can instantly teleport in and if they die they can just undock straight away in a new dura or even if necessary a fresh npc bought ship. Combine this with the narrow window to get into the port battle in the first place and even if the attackers can manage to find enough players for a full PB fleet and screeners, the chances of managing to fight your way through even a vaguely organised screening fleet and get into the port is very slim.

This problem is compounded for 4th rate pbs where the attackers are forced to come in 4th rates but there's nothing stopping the defenders using 1st rates to screen.

I understand the frustration with the log out tactics but with the other mechanics as they stand it is the only way that a smaller nation can attack a larger nation. If you want to reduce the game to being surely the greater numbers win, why even cap the pb at 25v25? Why not just make it the first 50 players to click get in and if that ends up being 40v10 then I guess the smaller nation should have just bought more people.

 

Personally as a long term solution I think it would be cool to add a multi day series of battles of different classes and maybe even sizes, and the side that does overall best wins the port. But something like that obviously ins't going to happen any time soon.

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Sorry for the double post, but think about this from a balanced perspective for both sides. If the attacked can't join the PB for 30 minutes after logging in then there needs to be a rule that the port locks down for defending teleport's 30 minutes before the battle starts, and any defender undocking from that port needs to wait 30 minutes before he can join the battle. Otherwise it is just crippling any chance for the attacker to get in to the battle unless they either have overwhelming numbers or the defenders just decide to let them in to get a good fight.

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This would effectifly stop any smaller nation/alliance from being able to attack any ports, resulting in even fewer players, resulting in dead game.

30 min block, sure, but only if:

- The 30 minutes entry timer can only start after the first attacker is being able to enter the port. Otherwise attackers would keep being tagged by a surprise resulting in no PB ever again and/or nightflips.

- The 30 minutes logon timer should count for BOTH ATTACKER AND DEFENDER! Fair is fair after all.

- When a PB is triggered the port being attacked can no longer be used to undock, so defenders have to sail as well and not just undock.

- Maybe bring back the coward perk, so attackers have a better chance of arriving at the port.

All in all this seems like a really bad idea.

#nozerg

 

Edited by Kloothommel
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well, in regards to the BS, it is good and bad, if your attacked and get away, you should not be able to stay or log off in BS. a 10 min timer would be best, followed by when you exit, have it place you outside the zone of attack in a random area N,S,E,W, 2-3 squares away. the gankers shouldn't get a second crack at you the sec you pop out of BS. placing the escaped ship to the closest friendly port doesnt work either. if your a french trader that just spent 3 hours sailing to flatts, and get caught by 5 brits near the flatts, wheres the nearest friendly port? id not do it and neither would many others. hence why placing the ship 2-3 squares away from their attackers works better. 

as for logging off in front of a port for a PB is an exploit regardless how you try to explain it, it is. though making the battle circle large enough so that if they do spawn back in inside the circle, they need to leave the circle for like 30 secs, and then return so that they can enter the battle or engage the screen fleet. it seems to be feast or famine here. glad the coward perk is gone, that was a wasted perk to have. 

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25 minutes ago, Harald Britbasher said:

Please give the smaller nations a chance to actually fight port battles. Theres nothing worse than being screened out of a port battle...

And I think that NA is dangerously close to making it entirely possible for a defending nation to tag_and_kite delay an invading PB fleet into oblivion. I can only guess that it hasn't been happening because the "Can't join battles" lockout timer doesn't work for PBs.

Now - even if tagged once, attackers have 30 seconds to get to the PB before they can be tagged again.

If the Battles lockout timer gets fixed for PBs, defensive screeners will have 90 seconds to retag an attacker during the 120 sec lockout after the 30 sec attack timer lapses. Attackers could theoretically get to the PB marker swords but never have the chance to actually enter the PB.

Time to tred very carefully before making any changes either way to the screening mechanic.

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3 minutes ago, Angus McGregor said:

And I think that NA is dangerously close to making it entirely possible for a defending nation to tag_and_kite delay an invading PB fleet into oblivion. I can only guess that it hasn't been happening because the "Can't join battles" lockout timer doesn't work for PBs.

Now - even if tagged once, attackers have 30 seconds to get to the PB before they can be tagged again.

If the Battles lockout timer gets fixed for PBs, defensive screeners will have 90 seconds to retag an attacker during the 120 sec lockout after the 30 sec attack timer lapses. Attackers could theoretically get to the PB marker swords but never have the chance to actually enter the PB.

Time to tred very carefully before making any changes either way to the screening mechanic.

Defenders can already kite attackers to oblivion. With unwise changes attacking can be completely impossible. All you need to do now is keep the attack fleet tagged for 30 minutes. 

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trying to convince dev's here on forum that logging off in front of port is done so smaller nations can get a pb is hopeless as most forum users are brits and will allways like this change, and by that have the most post and votes..

let's just all go brits and yay problem solved we can all enjoy empty port battles again;)

Ohhh wait, they just say you used to have screeners before when it was flags... yes, but you think only the brit alliance has lost players when server numbers go down???

there is a reason why don't screen in the danish nation in defensive port battles with danish player and use allies instead if they want to show up, because the danish players are in the pb..

Ok, why be allied with them when they don't show up with enough ppl?? cause if not we would be one ported cause of our low numbers even quicker..

 

Edited by North
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Well I say hurrah. Can't think of a reason I don't like any of the new changes.

Have tested the port to port and enter OW...now to test what happens when you logout....

Ok so when you logout the timer keeps going, so you can x out at say 4.45 and come str8 back in and it will be like 3.30 or whatever...if you wait until timer is over then...you can ONLY exit to a friendly port so like coolies.

IF you logout in OW and just login, there is no obvious timer/message thingie about not being able to enter PB's

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3 minutes ago, Jeheil said:

Well I say hurrah. Can't think of a reason I don't like any of the new changes.

Have tested the port to port and enter OW...now to test what happens when you logout....

Ok so when you logout the timer keeps going, so you can x out at say 4.45 and come str8 back in and it will be like 3.30 or whatever...if you wait until timer is over then...you can ONLY exit to a friendly port so like coolies.

IF you logout in OW and just login, there is no obvious timer/message thingie about not being able to enter PB's

PB timer is coming in the next hotfix

if you logoff in the open sea and does not login back in 5 mins you will have a 30-60 min PB entry lockout - that can be stopped if you enter any friendly port. This will take care of occasional disconnects on your way to PB AND will stop people logging off before the PB.

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Just now, admin said:

PB timer is coming in the next hotfix

if you logoff in the open sea and does not login back in 5 mins you will have a 30-60 min PB entry lockout - that can be stopped if you enter any friendly port. 

Well I like ALL this and cannot wait to try our first Port Battle, we biffed away for 2 hours this morning to stir that one up...hoping for the patch :)

Don't suppose you have a screenie of the Port for Puerto De Espania ? "Land in Port Battle" ?? in Trinidad in your box of tricks do ya ?

I'll be sure to grab a video of it :)

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3 minutes ago, Aegir said:

Is it possible to make it apply to anyone who logs off in a battlescreen as well rather than just in the OW?

Yeah, good idea... there would be people sailing to Port where there will be PB, attack some AI ship next to port and wait in Battle Screen for the PB start.

The same for sailing in Battle next to port while battle is over, jumping out and immediately joining PB.

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On 12/6/2016 at 0:23 PM, admin said:

Log off before battles/port battles

PB entry timer can be implemented. If you log off at sea, when you login you will receive a port battle entry lock blocking you form entering port battles for lets say 30 mins. This lock can be removed by entering any friendly/allied port. 

This solution is not elegant. Disconnects count as log off and if you sail to port battle and suddenly disconnect you will have to sail back to friendly port to remove the timer or wait for significant time. So players with not stable connections will suffer a lot and this will cause a lot of frustration.

 

What if, instead of a timer based on log off, we made it so you could not log off close to an enemy port? A certain distance perhaps? Several miles or something more relevant; I am not sure what in game units are based on. With the new port battle entry and land mechanics this area would be outside the outer circle.

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To hinder both battle screen camping and battle screen logging off would the simplest choice to get he cross-swords to fade out once the battle is taking place. Say after 5mins the crossed swords fade away (go transparent). Remove the ability to log off on battle screen by pushing everyone back into open world after 30mins. Make it only possible to log off in open world or port. If u close the game in battle screen. Once the end of battle counter runs down and the end of battle 30 mins to get thrown into open world until the afk timer kicks you'! 

@** edit** my own views and opinions and not any representation of the views of my nation.

 

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Yes, indeed, this is quite a tricky question. I've read through some of the suggestions here and I find that the new update addresses this problem perfectly. However, I would add a limited range for teleportation to friendly ports, ESPECIALLY if you have cargo. Because now you can as a Danish player for example get some Bermuda wood up in Bermuda and then, through the battle screen, teleport yourself and the cargo all the way down to the Bimini (Bahamas). This is a big way for other nations too to get out of the way of pirates etc. which reduces PvP and loot.

Edited by Lz3
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I think with the question of cargo then how about you get teleported to the last friendly port visited. That way you made no progress towards your destination and is not some harsh idea that even though you escaped you still lost all your cargo - that seems unfair to me.

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3 hours ago, Bacchreus said:

I think with the question of cargo then how about you get teleported to the last friendly port visited. That way you made no progress towards your destination and is not some harsh idea that even though you escaped you still lost all your cargo - that seems unfair to me.

I very strongly disagree with that. You start off at a friendly port at one end of the map (swede for example is in a corner), sail to Bermuda or some other corner and you get a FREE teleportation all the way across the map WITH your cargo.

Your suggestion implements what the developers have been trying to prevent - getting cargo from place to place without using the open world.
(Example: Cannot teleport to capital with items in hold, cannot tow ship to outpost or teleport it (before the patch) to an outpost with hold items)

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14 hours ago, Lz3 said:

I very strongly disagree with that. You start off at a friendly port at one end of the map (swede for example is in a corner), sail to Bermuda or some other corner and you get a FREE teleportation all the way across the map WITH your cargo.

Your suggestion implements what the developers have been trying to prevent - getting cargo from place to place without using the open world.
(Example: Cannot teleport to capital with items in hold, cannot tow ship to outpost or teleport it (before the patch) to an outpost with hold items)

Seems you didn't actually read what I said. If the player that escapes combat gets teleported to the port he last visited then his entire trip up until then was a waste of time and he'd probably have to do it again. So in your edge case scenario that the player travels to bermuda with cargo. gets in a fight, escapes that fight and has to teleport back to the last port he left. Thus he never reached the goal of his journey and has to do it again.

 

However if your looking at it from a piracy point of view then sure the cargo stolen in a battle can be teleported safely to the last port he visited, but in all honesty most of the Pirate activity i've seen is more about hanging around and ganking outnumbered players and not about capturing their cargo.

 

The entire argument most were advocating was essentially that cargo haulers (traders) shouldn't be able to shortcut their journey. My solution solves that.

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25 minutes ago, Bacchreus said:

Seems you didn't actually read what I said. If the player that escapes combat gets teleported to the port he last visited then his entire trip up until then was a waste of time and he'd probably have to do it again. So in your edge case scenario that the player travels to bermuda with cargo. gets in a fight, escapes that fight and has to teleport back to the last port he left. Thus he never reached the goal of his journey and has to do it again.

 

However if your looking at it from a piracy point of view then sure the cargo stolen in a battle can be teleported safely to the last port he visited, but in all honesty most of the Pirate activity i've seen is more about hanging around and ganking outnumbered players and not about capturing their cargo.

 

The entire argument most were advocating was essentially that cargo haulers (traders) shouldn't be able to shortcut their journey. My solution solves that.

I totally agree with that, I like that suggestion. However, see here:

"

I think with the question of cargo then how about you get teleported to the last friendly port visited. "

In your comment above you say the last friendly port. That's my point. If you travel to Bermuda as a trader with a smugglers flag, Bermuda is not a friendly port. Which would mean you get teleported to the last friendly port you left, which would be idk somewhere. 

 

What you stated above is a great idea, that he gets teleported to the last visited port. But yeah, pirates etc. smh

15 hours ago, Lz3 said:

 

Edited by Lz3
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  • 5 months later...
On 2016-12-06 at 1:23 PM, admin said:

If you escaped the battle you no longer will be placed in the same spot in the open world - if you escaped you escaped. No need to try to give someone a second chance to get you. To do so we will give the player the option to either exit to the open world or teleport him to the certain friendly port (for example nearest friendly port).  That's what would real life captain would do in case of certain danger - try to escape to the nearest friendly port.

On 2016-12-06 at 1:23 PM, admin said:

 

Problems

 

  1. People log off at sea (quality of life feature) and then log in to enter port battles or attack others
  2. People sit in battle result screen to attack others or avoid gank
  3. People wait outside to wait for someone to come out from the BR screen wasting time

The issue with 2 and 3 is caused by the following design. If you escaped you are still put into the same place in the open world totally disregarding the fact that you repositioned in battle. In reality problems 2 and 3 would never happen because if you escaped you escaped and got to port. In our game if you escaped you are still placed (punished) and placed to the same area giving attackers a second attempt to sink you.

 

Well it's unfortunate this never worked out. We really need another solution, this griefing is out of hand and we are right back to where we were. Basic cutters and other smaller rated ships are now griefing everyone in sight with no intention of fighting and laughing about it.Some sort of mechanic needs to be put in place and soon to stop these trolls. This is absolutely ludicrous and needs to be fixed.

Edited by Neptune
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  • 1 year later...

Post battle port TP and two minute timers were removed over a year ago; two very obvious features to make OW fair. I guess the geniuses have finally realized again that invisibility is not enough to prevent you from getting curb-stomped post battle.

 

The cyclical irony of Naval Action. 

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