#Don'tKillTheFineWood

[Daguse]

So fine wood didn't work as intended. But Devs, please don't kill it off. Most crafters believe it has a place and are looking for the additional game play. Obviously it was a bit to much in the first implementation, make some tweaks but please don't give up on it. Increase the drop rate? Reduce the amount that is needed? Make it only required for SOLs? 

Players, if you support the Fine Wood Movement, post here. 

Devs, take a looking on the first page of the search you can see the player base did like it, but wanted some small changes. 

#Don'tKillTheFineWood

 

[Hugh Latham]

The critics of fine wood complained that, as solo players, they couldn't build endless exceptional ships like cookie cutters. When every ship in the game is "exceptional" then no ship is exceptional. It seems to be a common thread to dumb down the game so the "casual" player can experience the "thrill" of every aspect of the game on a daily basis. I don't know how thrilling it can be to play a game with little complexity or challenge. I doubt it will hold the "casual" players interest long and it certainly won't hold mine. 

I think in the case of fine wood the problem was simply a matter of balance between standard, compass and fine wood. I was accumulating a little too much standard wood, even though I was building some less than exceptional ships along with the exceptional ones.

[Corona Lisa]

Im glad its gone.

[Daguse]

2 minutes ago, JonSnowLetsGo said:

Im glad its gone.

care to elaborate? 

[Corona Lisa]

1 minute ago, Daguse said:

care to elaborate? 

Imo it was just unnecessary ballast to the game which made crafting harder so people were scared of losing their ships. I think his was one of the reasons why PvP died and players left the game.

[Wesreidau]

Nope, kill it dead.

In the future I hope the mechanic of Fine Wood controlling ship quality levels is replaced with some ingredient bought and paid for using the PVP currency. It is fun to grind for PvP currency, since pvp combat is the most engaging part of the game. It is not fun to grind for random resource collection drops, since crafting resources out of labor hours is the least engaging part of the game.

Edited December 6, 2016 by Wesreidau

[Vaan De Vries]

removing fine wood just killed all interest in playing for me. There is no immersion in hunting enemy ship when time require to gather resources for building an except 4 or 5th rate is less then time required for hunting and sinking it.

The game practically became another session-based MMO like WOWS and WOT. OW is not needed and don't influence the game at all. Everybody can earn 2 mil in an hour and buy all needed mats in capital. 

One patch just killed all interest in game for me.

Maybe I will come back after 1-dura principle will be implemented and sinking enemy ships will began to matter once again.

Edited December 6, 2016 by Vaan De Vries

[Snoopy]

The underlying question is "everyone-in-first-rates" or "nobody-in-first-rates" (first rates in terms of quality and size). I think cheap ship building is the lesser of two evils, Fine Wood was a mechanic that made a few players feel all elite and good about themselves, but the rest just left the game. That was the wrong direction and will harm the game more than the few hardcore players who liked the mechanic qq-ing.

Also, ironically, at the end of that process, when only distilled 'hardcore' players remain you still end up with exactly the same scenario: everyone has good ships. They are either welfare-epics or result of a mindnumbing grind that (among other time sinks) drives off players, so why have the grind in the first place?

It also felt clunky: there is an overlap between Mid/High Grade Notes and Fine Wood in limiting high quality ships, and it had annoying RNG and is easily circumvented by alts.

Good riddance.

EDIT: there are sane proposals (Bart Smith's for instance) about reusing the name of the mechanic that I like.

Edited December 6, 2016 by Snoopy

[Hugh Latham]

8 minutes ago, JonSnowLetsGo said:

Imo it was just unnecessary ballast to the game which made crafting harder so people were scared of losing their ships. I think his was one of the reasons why PvP died and players left the game.

So your suggesting there should be no sense of risk in PvP? Sounds like great fun. Perhaps you would like the game even better if your ship just reappeared after being sunk. No need to craft a new one. Btw, where are all those casual players flocking back to the game now that it is dumbed down?

Edited December 6, 2016 by Hugh Latham

[Vaan De Vries]

Just now, Snoopy said:

is easily circumvented by alts.

I wonder how many people decided to spend another 40$ just to get some small advantage in a game. No doubt there some people like that but exploits with alts will always be possible in any MMO games. You know you can easily make and alt with 200 points in interested region and then just jump to defend a 1st rate PB with Cerberus. It's much bigger possible exploits but there is not many people who will do this.

[Corona Lisa]

2 minutes ago, Hugh Latham said:

So your suggesting there should be no sense of risk in PvP? Sounds like great fun. Perhaps you would like the game even better if your ship just reappeared after being sunk. No need to craft a new one.

I dont even know what you want bro, you still lose your ship when you sink. Why even post if you have no argument?

[Wesreidau]

The answer to welfare-epics or only-hardcore is a cost curve that makes the hardcore crowd get just a slim edge over the serious play crowd. That's where all my 1, 2, 4, 8 and 1/1, 2/2, 3/3, 3/4, 3/5 suggestions come in. Make the yellow only slightly better than, but far more expensive than, purple. Likewise purple to blue, so your usual decent player with a decent ship has that price-optimal 3/3 fine ship.

I'm fairly certain its the 3rd permanent slot that makes exceptionals so desirable, judging by the 2/5 exceptional ships of the line people keep giving me as charity.

[Vaan De Vries]

4 minutes ago, Hugh Latham said:

So your suggesting there should be no sense of risk in PvP? Sounds like great fun. Perhaps you would like the game even better if your ship just reappeared after being sunk. No need to craft a new one.

Also they would like to just exit the battle without any fighting. Just give them the "YOU WON" screen on exit.

At serious - NA became just yet another game for casuals. Given how quickly casual players change games anyway and how boring and easy and without any challenge the game is now - the online will drop again..

Edited December 6, 2016 by Vaan De Vries

[Hugh Latham]

2 minutes ago, JonSnowLetsGo said:

I dont even know what you want bro, you still lose your ship when you sink. Why even post if you have no argument?

Yes, you do lose your ship, but replacing it is so easy it is only a matter of a few mouse clicks. You are the one that said risk was killing PvP.

[Vaan De Vries]

2 minutes ago, JonSnowLetsGo said:

I dont even know what you want bro, you still lose your ship when you sink. Why even post if you have no argument?

And it's required to spend around 1 hour minimal to hunt and sink enemy frigate.

In 1 hour I can houl Parisian furnuture for 2 mils and on this 2 mils I can buy in WS enough resource to build 3-4 5 fura frigates.

Great immersion! OW plays such a BIG role!

[Corona Lisa]

Just now, Hugh Latham said:

Yes, you do lose your ship, but replacing it is so easy it is only a matter of a few mouse clicks. You are the one that said risk was killing PvP.

 

New ships are not free, except when you did nothing but trading and crafting for months.

But the average player has to do some work to get a new ship.

Im done with this topic

[Vaan De Vries]

Just now, sruPL said:

So you prefer rather a group of elite players being able to exploit it rather then access for everyone? k

I wasn't exploiting it, I wan't in a clan, but I have no problem with the system.

During last couple of weeks I built excep Aga for PB, except Connie and Surprise for OW PVP. 

In a pair with a friend we sank several 2nd and 3rd rates, around 10-15 Frigates and capped several traders. Some engagements we had to withdraw from. We come close to loosing our ships TWICE in 10+ battles, some of them were 3 vs 4 and 2 vs 3.

So in a nutshell I haven't lost 1 dura of my excep ships. If I've played even a lot WORSE I can't imagine someone loosing more then 1 Aga, 1 Connie and 1 Surp during this period. Cause I'am living pretty risk sailing alone or in a pair in completely hostile waters near Hat island.

In average I play about 1h-1h30m per day. Most of the time I am not trading - I am just hunting near Hat island. 

So again, I didn't see any necessity to exploit anything with fine woods. You can easily build 1-2 4th excep 4th rates per week. And you most probably won't need more. 

And if you are loosing more than 2 4th rates per week - MAYBE you should switch to brigs and know how to play a bit...

[Vaan De Vries]

5 minutes ago, JonSnowLetsGo said:

 

New ships are not free, except when you did nothing but trading and crafting for months.

But the average player has to do some work to get a new ship.

Im done with this topic

Or maybe the average player should learn how to play this game.

You can earn 2 mil in an hour mate. And then buy everything you need (except maybe for a silver) in the capital..

[Hugh Latham]

Regarding OW speed increase; it gives less time for a faster ship to chase down prey. The visual range is still the same so prey reacts relatively sooner and reaches safety sooner. Not sure what was intended by the speed increase so late in development after we were all accepting of the old speed.

[Anne Wildcat]

Maybe keep fine woods for SOLs?

I like the ability to be able to replace my 5th 6th and 7th rates since I'm not a PVP pro like Vries above. 

 

Edited December 6, 2016 by Anne Wildcat

[Daguse]

12 minutes ago, JonSnowLetsGo said:

 

 

Imo it was just unnecessary ballast to the game which made crafting harder so people were scared of losing their ships. I think his was one of the reasons why PvP died and players left the game.

I agree that was the case. However I believe balancing the mechanic can make crafting more fun while reducing the "Fear of Death". 

 

13 minutes ago, Wesreidau said:

 

 

Nope, kill it dead.

In the future I hope the mechanic of Fine Wood controlling ship quality levels is replaced with some ingredient bought and paid for using the PVP currency. It is fun to grind for PvP currency, since pvp combat is the most engaging part of the game. It is not fun to grind for random resource collection drops, since crafting resources out of labor hours is the least engaging part of the game.

I agree that would be an option, however remember that not all players or servers are PVP. That doesn't mean you have to make the game a PVE game but should mean that you balance it. My take would be to return fine would with modifications to how it works and then add in the Admiralty Store to buy PVP upgrades, or even PVP refits for ships. Kinda the best of both worlds, crafters get more interesting game play, PVPs get better ships / more interesting PVP. 

 

16 minutes ago, sruPL said:

I am happy Fine Woods are gone. Fine woods were only for hardcore players, all medicore playerbase was suffering.

I agree, that is why balancing is need to ensure it works with both player types. 

 

16 minutes ago, Snoopy said:

 

The underlying question is "everyone-in-first-rates" or "nobody-in-first-rates" (first rates in terms of quality and size). I think cheap ship building is the lesser of two evils, Fine Wood was a mechanic that made a few players feel all elite and good about themselves, but the rest just left the game. That was the wrong direction and will harm the game more than the few hardcore players who liked the mechanic qq-ing.

Also, ironically, at the end of that process, when only distilled 'hardcore' players remain you still end up with exactly the same scenario: everyone has good ships. They are either welfare-epics or result of a mindnumbing grind that (among other time sinks) drives off players, so why have the grind in the first place?

It also felt clunky: there is an overlap between Mid/High Grade Notes and Fine Wood in limiting high quality ships, and it had annoying RNG and is easily circumvented by alts.

Good riddance.

EDIT: there are sane proposals (Bart Smith's for instance) about reusing the name of the mechanic that I like.

I agree with this as well. However I believe again, balancing is key. To take a page from WOW, crafting higher end items required rare drop items. That didn't mean only hard core players could have it. It just meant you had to spend a bit more time (maybe an hour?) to get the need mats. 

Balancing is KEY!

13 minutes ago, JonSnowLetsGo said:

I dont even know what you want bro, you still lose your ship when you sink. Why even post if you have no argument?

I think he's leaning to the World of Warships idea. 

 

14 minutes ago, Wesreidau said:

 

The answer to welfare-epics or only-hardcore is a cost curve that makes the hardcore crowd get just a slim edge over the serious play crowd. That's where all my 1, 2, 4, 8 and 1/1, 2/2, 3/3, 3/4, 3/5 suggestions come in. Make the yellow only slightly better than, but far more expensive than, purple. Likewise purple to blue, so your usual decent player with a decent ship has that price-optimal 3/3 fine ship.

I'm fairly certain its the 3rd permanent slot that makes exceptionals so desirable, judging by the 2/5 exceptional ships of the line people keep giving me as charity.

100% agree, balancing is key!

 

 

[Anne Wildcat]

4 minutes ago, Hugh Latham said:

Regarding OW speed increase; it gives less time for a faster ship to chase down prey. The visual range is still the same so prey reacts relatively sooner and reaches safety sooner. Not sure what was intended by the speed increase so late in development after we were all accepting of the old speed.

I rather liked the OW speed before, wished they hadn't changed it,  Instead to satisfy those that do not like OS maybe make speeds faster the farther you are out from port, like currents. :/

Edited December 6, 2016 by Anne Wildcat

[Hugh Latham]

Although exceptional ships are objects of desire, I have used many lower quality ships to good effect when I had to. Player skill is still the most important factor in combat. Exceptional ships just add a dimension of gratification, but only if they are truly exceptional and not stamped out by cookie cutter.

Edited December 6, 2016 by Hugh Latham

[Sea Archer]

Non-exceptional ships work quite good, but in the end I always craft exceptionals. The problem with fine wood was that it was unpredictable when it would drop.

It was ment to reduce the only exceptionals, but as players are, they want exceptionals, no matter the cost.

I like it, that fine wood is gone. But I would like to see some rare material needed for 4th rate upwards. Some kind of special material, that cannot be crafted, but must be capped from ai traders.

[TrackTerror]

I think it is good it is gone because there was unessesary steps in crafting and and not becase it made ships harder to craft.

I think what the devs and players suggested with the fine wood could have been achevied by just adjusting drop rate on normal wood types and scale usage of it when crafting ships of different quality, instead they just added a cumbersome clickfest.