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vazco

Fix for broken hostility system

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I believe hostility system is a step into the right direction, however it’s not working now. Fixing it may improve the game significantly. I’m saying this as a guy who proposed the system in the first place ( afaik ). Sometimes systems don’t work as you intended, or are modified to not to work as intended :)

Edit:

The newest version of this post is available under link below. It's constantly updated and allows you to put your comments on top of the text:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1QReWu6p7LJ3hhKpi4Lf5pbKQrK9NeqDVZU8NdTJtm5c/edit#

What doesn’t work:

  • hostility mainly generates PvE, not PvP
  • system of entering PB’s is prone to exploits (log off screen, wave of screeners jump out of harbour)
  • without using exploits, a decently organised defender has a huge advantage, making capturing a port extremely hard and costly
  • system generates 1-2 battles per nation per week, with no meaningful encounters in between (not counting PvE)
  • larger nations gain big advantage in both hostility generation, as quantity is quality now
  • war supply hostility bump is not limited, allowing for a hostility bomb tactic

 

 

What is important to notice:

  • RvR is completely  a domain of clans, and as such every system related with RvR should support clans
  • people want screening encounters, it’s worth to give it to them
  • people want more or less fair fights, which balance out nation size difference and which require skill, not numbers
  • players raising hostility are PvP, not PvE players. It’s hard to convince PvE player to join even a PvE hostility generation mission. That’s why hostility should focus around PvP
  • port battle system should value people's time, giving them interesting, meaningful and fair encounters quickly, without tedious work

 

 

Some ideas to improve the current system:

  1. remove PvE missions completely. Instead, when attacking fleet reaches the mission, launch a notification that the fleet is raising hostility. Allow for any defending captain in an attacked region to teleport to a battle, filling in defending fleet to a BR limit of an attacker.  In case defenders don’t show up, raise hostility by X and allow to launch next mission eg. 10 minutes later. 
    1. this still allows for uneven screening tactics, however it also promotes PvP battles of different fleets in even encounters
    2. it saves time of players to get a good PvP
    3. In case players won’t show up on a regular basis, you could tweak mechanism to fill in defender’s fleet with AI up to attacker’s BR
  2. create war supply encounters, where eg. 4-28 hours in advance (chosen by attacker) there’s a notice that war supplies will be delivered to a harbour. Delivery ships would be allowed to deliver goods only in the specified time (eg. 1 hour), raising hostility eg. only by 50% if all goes well. This would allow for a large screening operations and delivery operations. 
    1. it makes economy significant for war effort
    2. it could be launched both by a defender and attacker
    3. it would create more of meaningful encounters at times when port battles are rare, and often happen once per week
    4. it empowers organization that clans offer
  3. multiple other types of missions could be created with a similar mechanic. Eg. raids could be set 4-28 hours in advance, requiring attacker to sail his ships into the harbour within 30 minutes. Any ship that would get in would have to reach a certain area and eg. stay there unattached for 2 minutes to raise hostility, while defenders could join battle only to a limit of attacker's BR already in the mission. This could raise hostility eg. by up to 30%
    1. adds variety
    2. allows for experiments with different mission mechanics, defining which are fun, in the same time not influencing player's experience so much
    3. creates another opportunity for screening encounters

 

Those are more or less rough ideas. If they were thought through and modified in search of corner cases and exploits, I think after implementation they would improve experience a lot. They would also make game available for much more players who don’t have time to sail for 3 hours in search for PvP, however would likely invest 30 minutes in order to do so. It would make organized even PvP battles more often, which is probably the best side of NA.

 

 

ps. My first post wasn’t noticed probably since it was in on 5’th page of a large thread, and as such TLDR. That’s why I create this one in a separate thread.

Edited by vazco
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It sounds absolutely brilliant.

remove PvE missions completely. Instead, when attacking fleet reaches the mission, launch a notification that the fleet is raising hostility. Allow for any defending captain in an attacked region to teleport to a battle, filling in defending fleet to a BR limit of an attacker. In case defenders don’t show up, raise hostility by X and allow to launch next mission eg. 10 minutes later.

However this looks like the defender is always fighting a losing fight and might need some balance.

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I like the most of the idea but the statement below..

 

..Allow for any defending captain in an attacked region to teleport to a battle, filling in defending fleet to a BR limit of an attacker..

 

I dont want to see teleports all the time. I want to see the ships on the see. Magic teleports should be only implemented if really needed.

 

Instead of teleport i would mark the battles on the map after they are ended. That mark on map includes: A timestamp, the nation and maybe an idea of th enemies size of their fleet (small, medium, big).

That mark disapears from map after 30 Minutes. That would make it much easier to find the enemy wich are generating hostility, adds an "Seach and Destroy" - feature, dont use magic teleports and saves time.

Edited by Sven Silberbart
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However this looks like the defender is always fighting a losing fight and might need some balance.

Yes, a defender with not full fleet, filled with AI, will be fighting a loosing fight, however will still be able to inflict some damage to the enemy, unlike full AI fleet. A well organized defender will have an even fight. Yes, definitely this could require some rebalancing eg. by allowing for a bit higher BR for defender, especially when partly filled with AI, and maybe by allowing defender to control AI.

 

Instead of teleport i would mark the battles on the map after they are ended. That mark on map includes: A timestamp, the nation and maybe an idea of th enemies size of their fleet (small, medium, big).

That mark disapears from map after 30 Minutes. That would make it much easier to find the enemy wich are generating hostility, adds an "Seach and Destroy" - feature, dont use magic teleports and saves time.

 

I thought about this, however most often it would result in defender organizing a ganking fleet with higher BR, or a smaller fleet that would avoid combat. It's also prone to exploits, eg. part of the fleet could trick you into being a small fleet, with remainder of the fleet waiting in logout screeen nearby. With teleport you can have an even and entertaining battle, and you still have to be in the region - you have to be prepared.

 

In the same time you can just take this time after you see the notification and instead of teleporting, take your chances and scout for enemy, engaging them with a larger fleet. A longer timer (eg. 5-10 minutes) would allow you to do this.

 

Since teleport would be only for defence, attacking side would have much bigger immersion - everything would look like it looks now, just with players instead of bots.

Edited by vazco
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Don't really have any input or feedback yet, just wanted to note that you really hit the nail on the head in regards to the problems we're facing and I hope that the devs are going to acknowledge it quickly.

The population drop facing the impending port reset didn't bother me in the slightest, but I fear that the dismay over the new system has led to something more permanent. The waiting for the port reset, a handful of one-sided screening battles and only being able to partake in a single PB (empty) ever since the patch hit has made me barely even bother with logging in anymore.

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Another pretty simple mechanic (form PotBS):

While sitting in front of an enemy harbor you generate unrest, just be sitting there. This allows the defending nation to show up, to beat you out of the area in a nice PvP fight.

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So first off a big o7 to Vazco for raising and proposing ideas in this area. This is much better than whining about Nobbie for the Nation of Gitpants for using current test code to do such and such.

I have different thoughts on the hows I would like to see things in some areas. Totally agree with the topic and focus.

So war supplies is a good idea in general...allows individuals and trader/crafters to participate and has some Role Play merit to the age too. So just timelock the gains from war supplies. X% hostility in Y hours (say 25% per 4 hours or some such).

As to hostility and port battles in general.

So, with the recent changes port battles are now much rarer, we may only see 3-4 battle this week, only 2 so far and both required 'probably not intended ways' to make them happen (taking a port from a non-war enemy and a hostility bomb).

If we are to keep Port Battles rare...so you only have max 2 per nation per couple of days, then I think I would like to see a port battle last for 12 hours or some such...or even 24 hours....where there is in essence a tug-of-war multistage type of engagement that tallies a score. So imagine something like

Stage 1 : Bring down outer defences

Stage 2 : Defeat Defence fleet

Stage 3 : Clear to town

Stage 4 : Land troops

Each stage can force the attacker back a stage or keep them locked in Stage 1. Each stage earns both sides rewards and can basically have players join as long as they want (and as often) into instances supporting upto 25 v 25 or some such.

I DO NOT WANT LOBBY ENTRANCE. Sail there ya gits.

I would also create a 15v15 mini game (clone World of Warships and put it in the Missions, duals area, complete mini game).

Have hostility missions as they are. Have attacking AI fleets of 1,000 BR or above stay open for 30 minutes....but have other missions for PvErs that help earn money, level up but have no bearing on hostility.

 

I say all this without knowing what raids are yet !!

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No more magic teleporting!

1) Limit War Supplies to 60% gain and only 1 or 2 can be carried on a medium trader at any given time.

2) Create an area around ports (similar to the green zone) where a players OW ship will remain on the OW for a greatly extended period of time if they log off, something like 30 minutes.

2b) Port battles are subject to the same cannot join battle rules as other regular battles so people logging in or jumping out of port must wait for the two minute timer to end.

3) Increase the hostility point gain by PvP kills and reduce the hostility point gain by PvE kills.

4) Battle ROE should be changed so that fights are closed when started, but after maybe 30 minutes they unlock again for reinforcements. This same ROE should apply to PvE missions too.

Optional 5) Limit hostility gain to a large sphere of influence around the regional capital and not the minor ports.

OR Optional 6) All ports can be conquered individually with a large sphere of influence around each port. However the regional build bonuses can only be gained by conquering the regional capital.

 

These options limit the events of PvE, but still keep them relevant while encourage PvP and prevent the hostility bomb.

Optional points 5 and 6 create a smaller area for almost certain PvP fights to happen.

Combined with limiting all ships to 1 or 2 dura, loosing a pitched battle can have direct repercussions and hamper a nations efforts to flip or defend a port.

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