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Forthcoming shipbuilding changes [Heavily Moderated]

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Wipes were always promised and guaranteed. 

We will find the ways to replace current ships with new ones - but we are not yet sure how exactly close they could be.  

 

There is of course an alternative is to move development to a test server and leave the main early access server alone until release. 

TLDR - we can't test the game without wipes.

 

I am all good with wipes...indeed I am sort of looking forward to 'the big wipe'.

 

I wish we had the population for a pure test server...we don't so I think it has to be this.

 

I just think something drastic like we will kill all your ships....will cost too much of the player base...I am mad...so it would require something exceptional to make me walk away....but I do need to be in a 'fun environment' with lots of friends to play with !...so a timeline...or a conversion of ships or something...even some redeemables based on your rank.

 

I also think some Design Principles need to be stated.

 

Do you expect all players, more or less irrespective of effort invested to be able to build the same quality ships...if so...thats cool...thats your design principle.

 

I was a huge fan of the Star Ward Galaxies crafting mechanics (best I have seen).

 

In that, each resource you used was graded (here it would translate to live oak from say Florida being better than live oak from say Haiti). Using it for say planking would give you better health. Equally say hemp from cuba may give better rigging qualites than say hemp from Florida.

 

Thus your materials dictate your build. This for me is the best model. It creates a dynamic market, a reason to travel and trade and reward for seeking out the best iron, coal, hemp, wood etc.

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I rather have a clean dockyard ready to receive the new perfectly crafted ships and boats.

 

Giving them names, in game, would be the cherry on top, but I go off.course.

 

Weight and hold space, that's another inclusion that looks well thought of, especially considering the absurd amount of shot one can pump out of a schooner.

 

Yes, they'll all be perfectly crafted, and so perfectly replaceable, and lose what character they had.

 

They'll all be the exact damn same.

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This is the worst design decision to date. I will be adjusting my habit of recommending this game accordingly.

 

from your signature )))

 

So long as exceptionals are made with labor hours they will be the only ship built, because everyone and their alt gets labor hours.

You can only limit exceptionals by making them require something players aren't getting for free at 48 a RL hour.

 

You have to limit exceptionals to a combat reward. Let the player's drive for exceptionals drive gameplay.

 

Our proposal does exactly what your signature says :)  

Based on data majority of players sails grey or green ships or exceptional ships. Other options are just fake or force players to conduct weird activities of building 5 forestries if they want to pvp. 

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Not everyone is interested from crafting.

 

Some could say that crafters should not get the good ships, they have not earned those.  Only good PvP players should get the good ships.

 

Indeed, it is just a bit more complicated.

 

Good PvP players should get good ships from two sources.

 

Capturing other peoples ships.

 

Buying them from good crafters.

 

The statement "Crafters dont deserve good ships" is...imo...100% wrong.

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Loving the ideas and the scope of useful/unique ships you can have rather than the cookie cutter builds we have atm.

 

Heading into enemy territory? -- take a connie, Smaller guns, larger supply + number of repair kits, take some of the armour off for greater speed.

Killing pirates? -- take an LGV to act as bait, get rid of most of the hold, larger guns, lots of marines 

Turning a renommee into a blockade runner or speedy ship to take out mortars in a port defense?

 

 

If it's done right it has the potential to massively add to the open world experience even if it isn't entirely historical :)

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This is the worst design decision to date. I will be adjusting my habit of recommending this game accordingly.

Devs are correct, no one was buying colored ships. Only Gold. 

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Ok, crafters should be allowed to craft the ships, but not to sail those.

Your crafter, crafts the ship for your captain.

You are not a 100% crafter in this game. You are a trader, captain, crafter and more.

So maybe you crafter isnt allow to sail the crafted ship but your captains does.

Anyways its both BS because why would someone not be able to use something he spend alot of time in? Next time you build something lets say a chair ill claim it because i can sit better in it than you

Edited by Paulus de Boskabouter
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First of all, I really like this game as indicated by the number of hours I spend playing.  Second, although still needing tweaks I think the last patch was a very good step in the right direction.

 

However, I really am not sure why you have decided to take these steps before allowing the changes in the last patch to be fully implemented and what problems you are trying to fix.

 

A few points:

 

1) You already have implemented some of what you say you are changing by having the different wood types.  Clearly if you want speed and use Fir Wood there is a trade off in armor.  If you  want to go the extra mile you can find a way to get Bermuda wood and eliminate the trade off.  If you use Marines, you actually lower the number of crew available for guns.  If you use a Speed Trim mod you give up turn rate and armor.  So why is an entirely new system required when you have the system already in place?

 

2) Nobody is sailling greens?  First of all, try to make a Green Indiaman.  Right now it takes 70 or so Fir Wood (Fir/Speed).  At market value, that is almost 700k.  I think if you tweaked the values people would start sailing green ships.  As to the complaint that PVP is less because of the new ship requirements I am not buying it.  PVP is down because the number of players is down.  Go do a mission and capture a ship for PVP if you don't want to lose you valuable ships.  Sail a green ship...problem solved.

 

3) Ship wipe?  This is a game killer.  I am sorry to say but that will anger many, many folks and pretty much eliminate the solo/casual player who has to start all over.  If the new system were that much better it might be acceptable but again all I am seeing is change but not the reason behind the change and why this system is better than the old.

 

4) If it ain't broke don't fix it.  Right now Shipbuilding is not broken and is not a major problem for players.  Perhaps a few complain loudly but the vast majority are fine with the system.  I would agree the new wood system needs some tweaking but it offers some exciting options.  There are plenty of things in this game that needs your valuable coding efforts and this is not one of them.  I know you read the forums so let me ask...what problem are you fixing?

 

5) Ship wipe.  Okay, I accept the fact we will have a wipe at release.  I don't like it but I accept it.  Having a ship wipe midstream however is something that I would consider very, very carefully.  We can not afford to lose more players and the numbers keep dropping.  Just stating there will be a ship wipe, as you just did, will drive people away.  Players have a lot of gaming choices so please tread carefully in implementing changes that really do not improve the situation and ignore bigger problems.  Change just for change sake is always a mistake.

 

Bottom line.  You have given up too soon on your recent patch changes incorporating the new wood types.  Tweak that system and add more options and I think you would have the system you are looking for without the draconian changes you have proposed.

 

 

6)

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I rather have a clean dockyard ready to receive the new perfectly crafted ships and boats.

 

Giving them names, in game, would be the cherry on top, but I go off.course.

 

Weight and hold space, that's another inclusion that looks well thought of, especially considering the absurd amount of shot one can pump out of a schooner.

 

Well me too, i would even welcome a full wipe but i dont want to get less players on the servers. ^^

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You can take all my stuff and ships so i start from zero and i like the new ideas BUT please add small roleplay elements for ships. For example when i spend time to craft a ship and sail it then I want to give my ship a Name and will be known under this name. Please!

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from your signature )))

 

So long as exceptionals are made with labor hours they will be the only ship built, because everyone and their alt gets labor hours.

You can only limit exceptionals by making them require something players aren't getting for free at 48 a RL hour.

 

You have to limit exceptionals to a combat reward. Let the player's drive for exceptionals drive gameplay.

 

Our proposal does exactly what your signature says :)

Based on data majority of players sails grey or green ships or exceptional ships. Other options are just fake or force players to conduct weird activities of building 5 forestries if they want to pvp. 

 

 

You are misrepresenting everything I ever argued for and telling me its what I wanted.

 

I did not, have not, never have, argued for removing the ship quality grades.

 

I am arguing to push exceptionals to an attainable reward from combat, not ultra-rare events.

 

You are removing all granularity of choice from ship choice and crafting because you failed to balance the cost of higher end ships. This will kill your long-term base.

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the real problem are the modules they are to expensive to put on captured ships. That make captured ships useless for pvp because there will be one who will be better so you may lose.

 

I would like to see a modules system with just one grade of a module. so no grey green .... Modules can be outfitted in nation ports and every region has its own benefits like the inbuilds now.

 

So you will ever craft a basic ship but it is up to the owner to outit/refit it for cash in nation ports.

 

That although takes away the 5 forestries issue.

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First of all, I really like this game as indicated by the number of hours I spend playing.  Second, although still needing tweaks I think the last patch was a very good step in the right direction.

 

However, I really am not sure why you have decided to take these steps before allowing the changes in the last patch to be fully implemented and what problems you are trying to fix.

 

A few points:

 

1) You already have implemented some of what you say you are changing by having the different wood types.  Clearly if you want speed and use Fir Wood there is a trade off in armor.  If you  want to go the extra mile you can find a way to get Bermuda wood and eliminate the trade off.  If you use Marines, you actually lower the number of crew available for guns.  If you use a Speed Trim mod you give up turn rate and armor.  So why is an entirely new system required when you have the system already in place?

 

2) Nobody is sailling greens?  First of all, try to make a Green Indiaman.  Right now it takes 70 or so Fir Wood (Fir/Speed).  At market value, that is almost 700k.  I think if you tweaked the values people would start sailing green ships.  As to the complaint that PVP is less because of the new ship requirements I am not buying it.  PVP is down because the number of players is down.  Go do a mission and capture a ship for PVP if you don't want to lose you valuable ships.  Sail a green ship...problem solved.

 

3) Ship wipe?  This is a game killer.  I am sorry to say but that will anger many, many folks and pretty much eliminate the solo/casual player who has to start all over.  If the new system were that much better it might be acceptable but again all I am seeing is change but not the reason behind the change and why this system is better than the old.

 

4) If it ain't broke don't fix it.  Right now Shipbuilding is not broken and is not a major problem for players.  Perhaps a few complain loudly but the vast majority are fine with the system.  I would agree the new wood system needs some tweaking but it offers some exciting options.  There are plenty of things in this game that needs your valuable coding efforts and this is not one of them.  I know you read the forums so let me ask...what problem are you fixing?

 

5) Ship wipe.  Okay, I accept the fact we will have a wipe at release.  I don't like it but I accept it.  Having a ship wipe midstream however is something that I would consider very, very carefully.  We can not afford to lose more players and the numbers keep dropping.  Just stating there will be a ship wipe, as you just did, will drive people away.  Players have a lot of gaming choices so please tread carefully in implementing changes that really do not improve the situation and ignore bigger problems.  Change just for change sake is always a mistake.

 

Bottom line.  You have given up too soon on your recent patch changes incorporating the new wood types.  Tweak that system and add more options and I think you would have the system you are looking for without the draconian changes you have proposed.

 

 

6)

Stop complaining about pixels. Wipe will happen and ALL players including MODs and Devs will get their ships wiped. We will be starting again, but keep our ranks and Craft XP. So, please prepare accordingly. Talking about color system, it really sucked. Devs heading in the right direction and by cleaning up the mess they making it more organized for new players and us. It could be expanded if needed with much less problems. Please realize that this game is under development and it will be changing constantly. You are here to test things and help them build the game for everyone. 

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You are removing all granularity of choice from ship choice and crafting because you failed to balance the cost of higher end ships. This will kill your long-term base.

 

 

there will be a lot more granularity in new system.

right now its yellow 3-5 or nothing

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I approve.  Reminds me of all of the fun I had in games like Master of Orion 2, where I'd spend hours trying to create just the right ship design for just the right task.  Can't wait to be able experience that level of design stratagem and thrill in Naval Action.

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Your crafter, crafts the ship for your captain.

You are not a 100% crafter in this game. You are a trader, captain, crafter and more.

So maybe you crafter isnt allow to sail the crafted ship but your captains does.

Anyways its both BS because why would someone not be able to use something he spend alot of time in? Next time you build something lets say a chair ill claim it because i can sit better in it than you

Did you read why I wrote what I wrote?  go read again.

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As a result of testing the final ship quality and shipbuilding system will look like this. 

  • Special - events, rewards, tournament vessels, or maybe extremely rare and hard to craft (months of effort required)

That's so unthoughtful, EVERYONE shoud be able to craft every ship in the game (as long as people have enough craft experience and level) because everyone payed the same price for the game, with exepcion of the Yach, you are not a free to play game, so please, dont act like it. You guys are making a lot of bad decisions, in the last 2 patches the game population has been decreasing and you keep doing the same kind of mistakes! Wanna do events? OK, fine... give prizes like uncraftable mods like marines, and handbooks, NOT SHIPS!!!!

 

 

 

~ A much better word ~ The Moderation Team

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No thanks for the removal of ship tiers.

 

The reason why no one uses green, blue or purple ships at the moment is because production costs are linear, so the extra effort to get a few more materials is worth more than the reduced performance of a sub-exceptional ship.

 

If they were exponential - e.g. 10 fine logs for gray, 20 for green, 40 for blue, 80 for purple, 160 for exceptional - you suddenly get a curve at which crafters will ask themselves what performance tier they consider whether the extra upgrade slots and performance percentage increases are worth it or not.

 

It's the real life equivalent of most vehicles even today - chip in for just the basics and you get a sluggish cost-cut junker, chip in more and you get solid performance, but at the highest price tiers you're starting to delve into expensive composite materials just to reduce a few kilograms/grams of weight for a tiny performance increase. The finest shipwright of Europe might produce something better than the finest shipwright of the Carribean, but it's definitely gonna cost ya to bring him here.

 

 

 

The tit-for-tat shipbuilding is neat though to make ships a bit more personal, though to be fair alot of that was already accomplished through upgrades (e.g. speed trim is the speed for hull tradeoff), and cargo space is the least interesting option since currently no one outside of a trader cares about cargo space at all.

Edited by Aegir
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Wipes were always promised and guaranteed. 

We will find the ways to replace current ships with new ones - but we are not yet sure how exactly close they could be.  

 

There is of course an alternative is to move development to a test server and leave the main early access server alone until release. 

TLDR - we can't test the game without wipes.

 

if you guys want to do the ship wipe I would go one step further and do a full wipe to test economy as well. Might as well do it now. a lot of people will always hate the thought of a wipe. I think its better to do it proper once instead of multiple partial wipes

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No thanks for the removal of ship tiers.

 

The reason why no one uses green, blue or purple ships at the moment is because production costs are linear, so the extra effort to get a few more materials is worth more than the reduced performance of a sub-exceptional ship.

 

If they were exponential - e.g. 10 fine logs for gray, 20 for green, 40 for blue, 80 for purple, 160 for exceptional - you suddenly get a curve at which crafters will ask themselves what performance tier they consider whether the extra upgrade slots and performance percentage increases are worth it or not.

 

It's the real life equivalent of most vehicles even today - chip in for just the basics and you get a sluggish cost-cut junker, chip in more and you get solid performance, but at the highest price tiers you're starting to delve into expensive composite materials just to reduce a few kilograms/grams of weight for a tiny performance increase.

 

 

 

The tit-for-tat shipbuilding is neat though to make ships a bit more personal, though to be fair alot of that was already accomplished through upgrades (e.g. speed trim is the speed for hull tradeoff), and cargo space is the least interesting option since currently no one outside of a trader cares about cargo space at all.

People will only buy Gold(the best), it's been tested. Why I should buy green or blue when I can save and get gold?

 

Gold will always be a better choice because of mods. I can have 7 mods vs yours 3. So, why would anyone pay for blue or green?

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I think people need to stop worrying about what this will do to the player base in the next month and think about whether this is the game you want to be playing in 12 months

 

Do you want all ships to be the same or do you want to change the characteristics of a ship to how YOU want it? With this system you can have unique ships rather than simply having 4 ships in port exactly the same and simply not caring if you lose one.

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if you guys want to do the ship wipe I would go one step further and do a full wipe to test economy as well. Might as well do it now. a lot of people will always hate the thought of a wipe. I think its better to do it proper once instead of multiple partial wipes

 

wipes were always promised and its better to start talking about them early :)

eta for dec jan is almost 2 months advance notice. 

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