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Economy is messed up

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Look at it this way. The devs can constantly keep an eye on the value of X, Y and Z, figure when prices should rise, should fall, should produce more, should produce less...

 

Or they could not have NPC production, and let the thousands of players decide these things organically. Like a real economy.

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Look at it this way. The devs can constantly keep an eye on the value of X, Y and Z, figure when prices should rise, should fall, should produce more, should produce less...

 

Or they could not have NPC production, and let the thousands of players decide these things organically. Like a real economy.

Who says AI production can't be just as organic as player production?

 

Base AI port production as a percentage of total port production of players.  A player pulls 100 of recourse X out, port produces 10 of resource X, and 10 consumption ports add 1 more to the consumption number they will acquire. AI sets price based on average of latest buy/sell of items, so that if the AI was a player, it would make a specific profit markup. You can easily codify standard market velocity, pricing and just in time production management.

 

Besides, leaving the economy in complete control of the players leads to product monopolies, price gouging, and lack of resources, especially with how restricted production is now with only two resources per port. I don't like the fact that 80 humans control 50% of the worlds economy now, and I certainly don't want to play a game where 1% of the long term players control 99% of the economy.

 

But by all means, advocate for an economic system that has players starting with no ability to do even the basic things.  

 

I have just recently tested this as a level 50 crafting skill player, restarting on PvP1, and after 10 hours and over 1 million in currency, I STILL can't produce a Frigate because I cant find the 15 silver I need to build 3 pieces of furniture, never mind finding enough to build notes and try to trigger a single attempt at a non-default BP.

 

I can't imagine how frustrating it would be to a new player who didn't have the levels yet at this point.  This latest change has done nothing but add grind in front of having a fun time.

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Trust me, AI production will only be as good as the minds of the development team's attention to the problem. That will never be as good as the player's attention to each and every individual problem they face. Say, your silver problem. The AI won't smuggle it, and even if it did, its only taking away play from a player who could smuggle it.

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Trust me, AI production will only be as good as the minds of the development team's attention to the problem. That will never be as good as the player's attention to each and every individual problem they face. Say, your silver problem. The AI won't smuggle it, and even if it did, its only taking away play from a player who could smuggle it.

And players will try to screw players at every turn, even to where players of the same nation who are not in the right guilt/club will be considered "unwanted", where as the developers job is to design a system that is not adversarial to the players, but rather makes the experience of playing the game fun.

 

I would rather trust the devs who have as their own best interests making the game playable and fun for all, than leave such a massive part of the game entirely up to players to manage.

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I don't think the developers are handling the economy testing as seriously as they have handled combat testing.

 

Either we will have player-influenced economies or we will have NPC managed economies, but the two cannot exist side-by-side without prices and supply becoming EXTREMELY arbitrary. Production in an NPC-driven economy will never be based on supply and demand, it will ALWAYS be based on the fact that the server simply resets everyday and dumps 5,000 more of item "x" in the shop. In other words, we're left with an extremely boring and predictable economy. Is it possible to make a profit? Sure. Just as it was possible prior to patch 9.96 to take 5,000 tobacco from one port to the next and dump it without having any impact whatsoever on the economy as a whole.

 

I would suggest:

 

Remove ALL NPC production. (perhaps with the exception of basic ships so we aren't all sailing around in basic cutters by the end of next week). Double or perhaps triple labor hour generation and the level cap. Double the amount of buildings that can be constructed. Let players control the amount of goods that are generated in the game world. See what happens.

 

Ideally this needs to happen after an asset wipe so that players aren't still living on the 50,000 tar that they have stockpiled in their warehouses since January, but even if that does not happen, I believe we need to at least give a serious test to player-only economic stimulation.

Agree

But also change ship construction to be time dependent and not labor hour dependent. Change shipyard to have ship construction AND ship modification and upgrading. Construct only basic green ships in 1 day. Then 2 days to upgrade to fine - 4 days to upgrade to master and 8 to get to epic.

Now both the trade wars and internal trading is supported and the aim of reducing epic ships will be met

 

edit: and of course make fine wood requirement along same line: exponential!!!!!!

Edited by Blaatand

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... I swear, its college and I'm arguing with an Econ 101 communist all over again. Its the devs job to give us a game. Lets call that game "1800's Mercantilism", not "1900's Failed Command Economy".

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Agree

But also change ship construction to be time dependent and not labor hour dependent. Change shipyard to have ship construction AND ship modification and upgrading. Construct only basic green ships in 1 day. Then 2 days to upgrade to fine - 4 days to upgrade to master and 8 to get to epic.

Now both the trade wars and internal trading is supported and the aim of reducing epic ships will be met

 

Labor hours are 48 LH for 1 real life hour, and spending those labor hours is an equalizer between those who log in to craft constantly, or those who can only log in on weekends. I'm all for making the high end ships very labor-hour intensive. But let people spend mountains of labor hours, not real life time "cooking" ships.

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Labor hours are 48 LH for 1 real life hour, and spending those labor hours is an equalizer between those who log in to craft constantly, or those who can only log in on weekends. I'm all for making the high end ships very labor-hour intensive. But let people spend mountains of labor hours, not real life time "cooking" ships.

 

Labor hours are NOT an equalizer when large capital can buy up LH contracts. Real time is exactly what is needed for ships because people cannot wait to get their ship and will settle for lower grades.

 

As for 101 communists just look at wall street today and tell me that's a better system???????????????

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... So I was here in January-February when the devs tried to plan an economy and a series of "crisis patches" sent us from bottleneck to bottleneck, trying to buy up whatever the AI threw out, then price-gouging at KPR.

 

 

venezuela-default-negozi-628x342.jpg

 

Then we went to a player-driven economy based on labor hours and people complained resources and materials were too easy to get their hands on.

wal-mart-issues-an-urgent-memo-begging-m

 

Yeah, you tell me which is better.

 

Labor hours are a tremendous equalizer, and those LH contracts are made by other players spending their 500 labor hours and selling them to a crafter. Its the same as any form of wages, without the risk we used to have giving people a thousand gold and a thousand coal and saying "make ingots". It also moves money from the "fat, greedy capitalist crafters" to the "poor, honest unemployed casual proletariat", or whatever Marxist tripe you prefer.

 

The alternative to labor hours proposed, that ships are made over several real-life days, only encourages people to get alt accounts. What's needed is much steeper labor hour costs for the higher grades, along with a reduction in the advantage higher grades provide. 1/1, 2/2, 3/3, 3/4, 3/5 ships at 0, 0, 3, 9, 18 notes. Don't even let people craft basic ships.

 

Or we can waste developer time constantly issuing economic hotfixes and handing the market over to speculation, hoarding and buying up anything the AI throws out at under-market prices to resell in trade hubs. Players in January/February were making millions a transaction price-fixing things like oak. Once labor hours could be used to make resources, that all fell apart, and the only comparable product was to ship sugar to a port that wasn't saturated. Then they seem to have fixed that... only to replace it with the fake trade goods, themselves all right, and NPC resource and material production, which has tanked their respective markets.

 

Stop pretending any development team on Earth can manage a thousand-player marketplace, and let the thousand players play the market as its own mercantilist game. Wars for sugar, wars for tobacco, wars for silver, wars for live oak. Smuggling and trade between allies, not buying from NPCs.

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Marxist tripe yourself... why so black and white?? In the middle you secure a baseprice for base products and let the market decide luxury goods.... this protects new and casual players and still allows for making good business with advanced goods.

 

I agree with the exponential cost and as for Alts I think it should not be allowed to have more than one account per server > Those who wanted an alt would have to purchase one more game account helping the developers. Alt accounts degrade from the game as it is used to produce and ship goods that should require smuggling or fighting to get to

Edited by Blaatand

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... 

 

Stop pretending any development team on Earth can manage a thousand-player marketplace, and let the thousand players play the market as its own mercantilist game. Wars for sugar, wars for tobacco, wars for silver, wars for live oak. Smuggling and trade between allies, not buying from NPCs.

 

The problem is, that the developers have a very keen interest and desire in controlling the economy, due to trying to use market scarcity to drive conflict.  The whole "it's important to control the correct ports to manufacture".  The problem is that there are many many single points of failure products that a lack of causes total internal economic collapse in any region.  Here is a "sort" list of the really critical ones.

 

Coal, Iron, Oak, Fir, Pine, Lignum,  Silver, Hemp, Compass wood, Stone, and as soon as you want anything other than a shallow water ship, Redwood and Gold.

 

That's 11 products, so obviously no one player with 5 extraction sites can produce everything, it's a national effort.

 

That said, if your nation has no access to construct resource centers for ANY of the above, your ship building dies.  Any clan of an opposing nation that knows your production capabilities can trivially lock an entire nation out of ship building, by simply having one member of the clan sit on ports that produce AI quantities, and buy up those resources through purchase orders before any outside nation can effectively smuggle.  

 

Smuggling does not help when there is nothing to smuggle, I tried in the last 48 hours to do that very thing in two hostile nations, 6 hours of sailing apart, only to find both purchase orders I tried to put in place out bid.

 

In short, the economy the developers seemed to want, one where your entire nation can be locked out of all ship production if you lack sufficient access to resources, now exists.  Sorry, but playing monopoly after all the valuable property is out of reach, for no other reason than you joined a weaker nation, is not fun.  

 

The game is called Naval Action not sea monopoly, and it's just a bit hard to have any action when you can't even build a decent ship.

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I think your price information is out of date.

 

Tobacco when it was 750g per unit and sugar was 600 each.  Yeah I could see it running 23k per medkit.  But now the price for production for a large medkit is well below the 20k mark if you own the buildings.

I calculated 300g per labor hour and 100g for a unit sugar / tobacco. That means 23k per large medikit.

Even if you ignore the value of labor hours for some reason you would still have higher production costs compared to the selling price of the NPC traders. And thats just unrealistic and stupid and should be fixed.

 

Look at it this way. The devs can constantly keep an eye on the value of X, Y and Z, figure when prices should rise, should fall, should produce more, should produce less...

Or they could not have NPC production, and let the thousands of players decide these things organically. Like a real economy.

Im pretty sure there are not enough active players in this game to have an interesting and functional economy without AI production. I think the new system is way better then before the patch, it just needs a lot of fine tuning.

Edited by JonSnowLetsGo

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Look at it this way. The devs can constantly keep an eye on the value of X, Y and Z, figure when prices should rise, should fall, should produce more, should produce less...

 

Or they could not have NPC production, and let the thousands of players decide these things organically. Like a real economy.

There's no reason why the NPC production types and quotas can't be covered by AI  code. If I can whip up a spreadsheet that shows me my production costs vs shop prices, the devs can do this. Yes - I would agree that the shop prices should be at a hefty markup - easily bettered by players.

 

I definitely like the idea of ports acting as their own AI Chamber of Commerce.

 

This also dovetails nicely with the concept that commodities 'consumed' by a port are totally dependent on what the port 'produces' which is also not static. A potential solution to the saturation issue. If a port AI sees rising inventory levels of a commodity - it starts trying to produce something to burn that inventory to avoid the 25k massive deflation saturation level. As the inventory approaches 25k, the price of the produced good starts to plummet to encourage trade. At the saturation level it gets desperate and starts under cutting the price of that good at neighboring ports, including player prices. 

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Or they could not have NPC production, and let the thousands of players decide these things organically. Like a real economy.

 

The biggest problem here is - we have ONE thousand online if we're lucky.  About 700 on PVP1 prime-time.  Server's limit is 2300 (maybe a little more, I cannot find dev's exact quote right now).  That's why we had several servers some time ago.  "Like a real economy" would work for 10k online on the same server.  For 1k it's a different story.  Be realistic.

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The biggest problem here is - we have ONE thousand online if we're lucky.  About 700 on PVP1 prime-time.  Server's limit is 2300 (maybe a little more, I cannot find dev's exact quote right now).  That's why we had several servers some time ago.  "Like a real economy" would work for 10k online on the same server.  For 1k it's a different story.  Be realistic.

 

Sure, a thousand online at a time. A thousand people want things, and a thousand people want to sell things. Five buy or sell contracts at a time.

 

Lift the contract limit to ten, twenty, fifty... individuals can engage in more market activities at once, increasing the rate at which price signals propagate through the economy.

 

Then consider that through contracts, an economic actor is still active even when he is not offline. We begin looking at total player base, not instantaneous supplies.

 

Furthermore, we are going to a full release soon, and the things end-game players need the AI to sell aren't the things new players need to sell. A player economy spares the devs a lot of first-week headaches trying to balance copper ore production for an uptick in low grade note demand. 

 

Get rid of restrictions on economic activity and let people play the mercantilism/smuggling game.

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