Jump to content
Game-Labs Forum
admin

Naval wood simulator

Recommended Posts

Historically, wood would have to be seasoned, which would take time. That could be one avenue to explore.

Tommy Shelby made a point to me a little while back saying that with fine wood, people either build 0 note ships or 4 note ships, with nothing in between. Addressing this should ideally be part of the solution - how do you encourage players to build "good" but not "the best" ships?

Lastly, the idea of PvP rewards have been kicked around for a while.

I'm not sure what the solution is, but I suspect some combination of the above would be ideal.

I agree this might be a good way to go. Encourage, somehow,using smaller and “worse" ships, like it has been done with restricted port battles for example.

The time one is only a delay to start production, but once there is a steady income of seasoned wood it loses effect.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree on the time being a limiting factor, since ships are not constructed in a single day but in months, so how about this:

 

The better the quality of a ship, the more "Fine Wood" it needs, like today, but to get fine woods, it can come via forest drops, but also, by crafting, and that´s what really takes time. Lets say we want to build a Basic/Common ship, you can do it straight away, but a on the same time, a Mastercraft will take a week´s worth of labour hours in order to convert all that wood into fine wood or even other kinds of materials, like furnitures into fine furnitures or like, furnitures crafted into fine furtiniture in a french port becomes a french furniture that gives its bonus to the ship. THink of this all sorts of materials and its bonus that adds up to the nation´s needs.

 

My other idea is a bit more radical: to kill the quality system and upgrades and start anew, with a whole new system of ship crafting based on ship´s customizations.

 

For example, if I want to build a Surprise and want it to carry 12pds, then why not, it would have the penalties related to this increased weight, but some of them, at least, could be countered by other customizations. This makes ships completely custom and that´s what makes them special and of better quality, not simply the current system of using fine wood to make it better and get more bonuses.

 

Also, through the customization path, one could even customize his ship after it is built, as long as he does it to those allowed post-built customizable features. IMO, this, allied to a new and more complex damage simulation system that simulates individual parts´ damage like individual masts, different ship´s compartments (and their collateral damages), better leak simulation... could make the customizations based crafting into something really unique, away from the plain and simple grind system.

Edited by stormridersp
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

CaptW posted this...."Here is why I don't think exceptional ships should be super rare: a high level player should be able to sail the best of the best, and not have to sweat bullets worrying about losing a good ship that he can't replace easily. Example: as a Rear Admiral and level 42 crafting, I am afraid to leave port in my exceptional ships because right now, I couldn't replace any of them. I hate that idea. I have never been one to run from a reasonably fair fight, or even a gank, but now I can't afford to sail my good ships for pvp. I have to use basic or capped ships for pvp, and save my gold ships for pve (on a pvp server for goodness sakes!"

 

I believe Cpat.W is on to something here. Making Exceptional ships fairly rare is one thing, but to make them super rare, as they are now, will not promote the use of them. I've already heard from many players who now say they will not use their 2nd and 1st rate ships for anything other than pve Missions because of their becoming so, so hard to come by.

 

If this trend continues, then I think the developers should consider changing the durability of ships. Rare, Exceptional 1st and 2nd rates get 3 dura, 4th rates down to fore and aft ships get 4 dura and all fore and aft get 5.  

 

Again, if 1st and 2nd rates are going to be this rare and super expensive to buy then most players simply will not risk them in anything other than Missions. This is not good for the game.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that the rarity and regional specificity of certain resources is a fine idea and adds flavor to the game. I would vote in favor of keeping that recent change.  That said to address the question of how to make very good ships rare, i think the answer lies in the blueprint system instead. 

 

See here for a more detailed explanation of Victor's idea:

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/17131-new-blueprint-system/

 

What if crafters had to design/draft the blue print of a ship before building one?  Meaning that a new blueprint would have to be drafted each time one builds a ship.

  • And part of that designing process would allow them to customize the ship type, wood, trim, paint, name, no guns, etc...?
  • And the result of the draft, though based on the architech's level, was somewhat random (in terms of the quality)?
  • And the actual resource requirements would become variables of the drafted blueprints?

 

Of course higher level architects should have a somewhat improved chance of drafting a good ship, and high quality level ships could require more time.

 

One can envision how there could be a market for player generated blueprints: listing Ship type, Wood type, Raw resource requirements, Trim type,....  

 

If we want to go one step further - there could be an additional source of variability.  Indeed, to make a good ship, one needs a good design, but also a good production facility.  Thus you could have a quality modifier from different production facilities (as we used to have shipyard levels for instance).

Edited by TaranisPrime

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I will make a couple assumptions... First you don't want to radically change the mechanics.  Can't blame you and you have bones for a workable system.

 

Second, Rare drops are irrelevant to rabid players.  If you make the fine woods a rare drop (current system) that will destroy the casual and mid tier player.  The rabid player will roll up 3 or 4 alts and set up farms and just out produce the rareness.  I can afford this.  I don't want to, but if I can sail/sell the best ships, I'll probable drop a hundred on alts and just outproduce the random.  That is good for your bottom line but frustrating to some players.  Pay to Win destroys a game.

 

Third better ships should be better.  That is why we fight for them.

 

One more point.  We play the game to fight, not build trade ports.  The new system forces a serious player to have too many trade ports and not have forward fighting bases.  When you add the mechanic that local ports do not have accessible fights, you are limiting map play severely.  I would rather have ports to fight and make buildings in friendly cities or allies.  Buildings away from home should be costly but not require a port.  Make buildings in your ports cheap and very productive including the good stuff in high numbers.  Maybe make buildings in cities you port in give random very good drops of rare stuff.  Buildings in your nation (where you don't have a port) but cost more and lower production but available in any city your nation holds.  Make buildings in friendly nations more expensive to build and very expensive to upgrade (damn tarriffs) with taxes (they also take new taxes if it sits in inventory).  Take the tariffs and put them on the open market in that port or throw it into AI traders who visit the port.  Make buildings in enemy ports expensive and low production.  You can build them, but they are not efficient. Having only 5 building slots is adequately limiting.  The risk and difficulty of sailing into an enemy port to pull out a needed commodity is also adequately difficult.

 

Ok, When you craft a ship it has durabilty.  That is an improvement, but not enough.  I would make any crafted ship require only the basic materials and it should be green.  That gives the casual crafter a bonus for the effort.

 

I would make notes increase the slots.  That system works.  Notes are adequately hard to make but an dooable grind for the casual player.  But make it increase more.  No notes is green.  2 notes for Fine.  4 notes for Master.  8 notes for exceptional.

 

I like the free random for special stats.  But if you want to choose your stat, then it will require a moderate amount of fine woods.  You want speed, find that fir.  You want crew space, find that food,  You want build strength find that fine live oak.  Make it a drop from fighting and breaking up ships, bottles and capping AI traders.  Set it at a level where a decent building can get you an frigate with a selected upgrade once a week.  Or a couple hauls from AI traders get you that nice frigate you have your eye on.  A 3rd rate would require a couple weeks and a 1st rate selected upgrade is a month of fine woods.

 

Upgrades are adequately difficult using notes and rare mats.  I would also remove the silver from furnishings and not require gold and silver on better ships.  You need to find some sort of gold mechanic... maybe top upgrades require gold and silver.

 

This system would mean...

 

A casual crafter who caps a couple AI traders with needed fine woods can make a green frigate or lower with selected stats.

 

A more dedicated casual crafter can collect the sliver for that exceptional frigate, but still has to find the woods to get that stat.  It would take a bit of time/luck/money to get those woods.

 

The dedicated crafter making an exceptional first rate with stats has to get a lot of fine woods, a lot of gold and a lot of mats to get it done.

 

I like the current durability system.  The better the ship, the lower the durability.  That gives a nice curve to new players and even old players have ships they can go fight aggressively.   It also punishes first rates that sail alone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I honestly don't mind the fine wood mechanic, and I wouldn't scrap it completely. It gives more meaning to actual ownership of a port that produces certain wood types, instead of just smuggling normal wood in/out. 

 

However, I would recommend reducing the randomness of the drop. Either take Compass Wood out as an option such that only fine wood can drop as an "extra", or just make the fine wood a static value, such that every X logs you harvest you are guaranteed to get Y fine logs. This will reduce some of the frustration of the current collection where luck plays such a factor.

 

I would also reduce the amounts required for shipbuilding, but replace it with something else. Basically, spread the rarity/timesink out over multiple resource types instead of piling it all onto one resource.

 

Maybe reduce the amount of fine wood needed, but increase the amount of notes needed. So something like this:

 

- Ships needing LGNs would stay pretty much what they are now, just a reduction in the requirements for fine wood types (at least for the common/fine quality levels).

- Ships needing MGNs would now require additional MGNs depending on the quality, but with a reduced amount of fine wood (so something like 1/2/4/6 notes for common-exceptional)

- ships needing HGNs would need a scaling amount depending on the size of the ship (similar to how the fine woods scale), so 3rd rates would need 1/2/4/6 (just like ships using MGNs), while 1st/2nd rates would need 2/4/6/8, but with a corresponding reduction in fine wood needed (and possibly even more notes for 1st rates?).

 

This should not only increase the rarity of exceptional ships, but make big SoLs even more rare. I would also increase the hours needed to craft ships, particularly SoLs. Increasing the hours for note crafting could work too, but only if the notes are removed from mod crafting as crafting mods is already ridiculously expensive for what they provide after the nerf. 

 

This would make fine wood still a requirement, but should split the burden between fine wood (rare/RNG to get) and notes (which are expensive hours-wise to craft). Gold and Silver are more rare now than they used to be, but are much less RNG-based than fine woods are and can be bought from the AI much easier.
 

Edited by Helbent

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you want other than gold ships to be used, how about reducing the durability the higher the quality is?

Sure you can craft an exceptional ship, but if it sinks its gone. The common one might not be as good, but you can use if several times. Keep the notes but remove the Fine logs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Before i begin my rant, let me say that i absolutely love this game! I've played it almost exclusively since i bought it.

 

I don't see any need to limit, or make it harder to craft any ship. With over 1300 hours of play, I've found that the bold will fight, and the cowards will run, no matter what ship either side has. I have chased enemy ships that were close to the same level as mine, and failed to keep up with them. I don't know if it was because of hull material, upgrades, or just them having more skill than I have. I've also had ships smaller than mine attack me, and put up one hell of a fight! Every nation in the game will group several ships together and go hunting for enemies. Some players will only attack if they greatly out class the enemy ships, and run as fast as they can if presented with a fair fight! I don't see placing limits changing any of this. I believe that the penalties, or if you'd like, handicaps placed on the larger ships before this last patch worked out well as they were. Larger ships were slower, both to start moving, and in top speed, which allowed the smaller ships a good chance to escape if the player knew what he was doing. 

 

If memory serves me, i read somewhere that naval action is as close to historically accurate as possible. I say keep that going! Place resources where they actually grew, not strategically placed to "make it harder". Leave it up to players to decide if a port needs to be kept from the enemy! Don't limit us because some don't like 1st rates, or that some complain that they give an unfair advantage.  "Historically" a captain took a chance anytime he left port, never knowing who, or what type of ship may have been out there. It was the risk he took! If they don't want to be attacked, let them play PVE!

 

If we have to have limits, then I agree with some of the things I've read from other posts, and some ideas of my own;

  :Only 1 or 2 ships allowed to be built at one time in a port, possibly have it take "x" amount of days for the ship to be built once all parts have been made. (days, not actual years please. this is only a game.)

  :Possibly have parts take a period of time to build. more or less time depending on the part.

  :Get rid of labor contracts, and replace them with contract labor in each port. It would cost gold to hire extra labor, which would reduce the amount of time needed to make the parts, and this would make players go out to make gold so they could afford it.

   :Possibly a building used to make "fine" (or refined?) from normal logs. But please, no ridiculous recipes, keep it historical!

   :Possibly require notes to make "fine" logs. ( I'd suggest low grade notes) 

 

All these changes would put the future of Naval Action into the players hands, which is how the real world Historically worked! Governments issued the orders, but it was the ship captains that won or lost out on the open sea, based on skills, and good decisions, not limitations set from above!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This line in red is brilliant, especially with ships now being "signed" by the crafter. The entire whine here is about everyone wanting to make gold 3/5 ships when they truly may not have the means to be able to. I agree, tho, that the drop rate needs to be raised or that a fine production building needs implemented. 

The entire idea of making crafting take longer and requiring more materials, is that these gold ships are way too prevalent and need to be more rare, especially these 1st rates, and to make nations work together.

 

I also really like the idea that experienced crafters should be able to make better ships.

 

What if there was some sort of "efficiency" calculation if a crafter makes the same ship? What  I mean is lets say I decide to make a Frigate. Once the Frigate is built I have a "Frigate counter," meaning if I decide to make another Frigate it will cost me less materials to use to make it again. So in a sense you would have crafters specialize in making a certain ship over time. If you were to start making a different ship, the counter gets reset or you lose some experience.

 

It's a rough idea but I would like to think that  after building X amount Frigates or X amount of Surprises that I should know how to build them more "efficiently" and "better" then other players.

 

--------------------------------

Going to the fine wood problem and possible fixes.

 

I would say one way is to let use craft normal wood into the fine wood. how much the conversion is, whether 50 to 1 or 30 to 1, is up to testing. Although, this doesn't entirely fix the issue. since the current idea is either the basic ship or the best ship. As others have said, their needs to be a reason to build common or fine ships and building a better ship should have diminishing returns. Again, the example stated earlier: a green ship should be miles better then a grey ship, but doesn't require too many more materials, whereas a Gold ship should not be that much better than a purple, but require a lot more materials to make.

Edited by Teutonic
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In short,

 

1.  Rare fine wood (and other resources) is an awesome thing.  Changes the game in all the right ways, strategy, diplomacy, just amazing...

2.  People are still sorting out their ports and building buildings.  For example, just yesterday I finally set up my "wood" port.  So to expect the wood economy to be fully working at this point is a little premature in my view.  Regions are being captured, shipbuilding shuffled around, and wood ports being built.

3.  Let it play out a bit before taking drastic action!!!  The map was disrupted in a major way.  Let things sort themselves out before you start fixing what isn't broken.

4.  If you must tweak things, I respectfully suggest small changes.  Such as drop rate, or the number required for shipbuilding. 

 

I will say this, it should be very hard to build the biggest ships in the game and the highest quality ships in the game.  So maybe increase the requirements for the top quality and sized ships and drop the requirements for the lower quality and sized ships.  The world should be full of decent frigates, but a top quality ship of the line ought to be a very rare and exciting thing, instead of everyone running around in gold santis.

 

 

 

Edit:  Let me add that under the old system, I had far too many ships.  I couldn't lose em fast enough.  I literally ran out of space for the ships I was building. 30+ ships.  All gold.  It was silly to even consider building a less than gold, or less than line ship.  Too easy in my opinion.  Best and biggest ships should be super awesome and equally rare.  If people choose to hide in ports with em, so be it.  Let's all go fight in blues with regional bonuses.  Risk reward is what makes sports/games/life fun.

Edited by Qwolf
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You will see it but only from LARGE clans as they will pool resources and labor hours to get things done.  I know in other games where they restrict things like that to huge numbers so individuals cant do it.  You will find that large guilds will get a system down where lower end crafters produce the small things and the master crafters make the finished product.  You will end up with a true factory of power.   

 

So make the parts for a 1st rate require a high crafting level (45+). Even the big clans only have a handful of max level crafters.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Could make it so regular wood has to be refined into fine wood?

 

Regular people can make money selling bulk wood products to crafters who refine it down and turn it into fine wood? Or something?

 

 

Or combine regular wood and some other material to create fine wood?

 

 

edit: Make refining a level 45 or 50 crafter skill?

I don't mind the current system cause you should get tons of fine stuff real fast and it should take a while to build up these higher grade ships.  THough I do like this cause I keep getting compass wood as my small percentage.  Maybe make it so that you have to refine so many logs to get a fine version of that type of log and you get a percentage of compass wood off that refining (since it's not a real wood it's just a really good quality of wood).

 

I would go with making it mid level crafting BP so that it's not just the level 50's that can create it.   I would say more the level 25 area for a blue print to get it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In short,

1. Rare fine wood (and other resources) is an awesome thing. Changes the game in all the right ways, strategy, diplomacy, just amazing...

2. People are still sorting out their ports and building buildings. For example, just yesterday I finally set up my "wood" port. So to expect the wood economy to be fully working at this point is a little premature in my view. Regions are being captured, shipbuilding shuffled around, and wood ports being built.

3. Let it play out a bit before taking drastic action!!! The map was disrupted in a major way. Let things sort themselves out before you start fixing what isn't broken.

4. If you must tweak things, I respectfully suggest small changes. Such as drop rate, or the number required for shipbuilding.

I will say this, it should be very hard to build the biggest ships in the game and the highest quality ships in the game. So maybe increase the requirements for the top quality and sized ships and drop the requirements for the lower quality and sized ships. The world should be full of decent frigates, but a top quality ship of the line ought to be a very rare and exciting thing, instead of everyone running around in gold santis.

Edit: Let me add that under the old system, I had far too many ships. I couldn't lose em fast enough. I literally ran out of space for the ships I was building. 30+ ships. All gold. It was silly to even consider building a less than gold, or less than line ship. Too easy in my opinion. Best and biggest ships should be super awesome and equally rare. If people choose to hide in ports with em, so be it. Let's all go fight in blues with regional bonuses. Risk reward is what makes sports/games/life fun.

Totally agree, diversity is fun and let's newer/poorer players join in easily instead of always meeting big and top quality ships.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Split notes and fine wood. Notes for upgrade places and fine wood for bonus. So we can sail basic ships with more upgrades or max upgrades and all are happy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In short,

 

1.  Rare fine wood (and other resources) is an awesome thing.  Changes the game in all the right ways, strategy, diplomacy, just amazing...

2.  People are still sorting out their ports and building buildings.  For example, just yesterday I finally set up my "wood" port.  So to expect the wood economy to be fully working at this point is a little premature in my view.  Regions are being captured, shipbuilding shuffled around, and wood ports being built.

3.  Let it play out a bit before taking drastic action!!!  The map was disrupted in a major way.  Let things sort themselves out before you start fixing what isn't broken.

4.  If you must tweak things, I respectfully suggest small changes.  Such as drop rate, or the number required for shipbuilding. 

 

I will say this, it should be very hard to build the biggest ships in the game and the highest quality ships in the game.  So maybe increase the requirements for the top quality and sized ships and drop the requirements for the lower quality and sized ships.  The world should be full of decent frigates, but a top quality ship of the line ought to be a very rare and exciting thing, instead of everyone running around in gold santis.

 

 

 

Edit:  Let me add that under the old system, I had far too many ships.  I couldn't lose em fast enough.  I literally ran out of space for the ships I was building. 30+ ships.  All gold.  It was silly to even consider building a less than gold, or less than line ship.  Too easy in my opinion.  Best and biggest ships should be super awesome and equally rare.  If people choose to hide in ports with em, so be it.  Let's all go fight in blues with regional bonuses.  Risk reward is what makes sports/games/life fun.

Easy for you to say... This means that you got what? 30*15 mill = 450 Mill?  Not to mention the resources and gold you have at this point? 

 

I lost 8 mill in the last patch, as I had stocked up on Compass Wood in a port that is now Spanish (I'm playing brit), which means I'll probably not see those again.  And even if I did, the price has dropped so much that I would sell at a loss.  Not that I care that much about those, it's worse with the 2xGold ships I had there(2xIndiaman)...  Hoping for peace with the spanish, although I have yet to see that on the PvE server.

 

I find the Fine Wood gathering way to slow, although I would rather take it slow than having the RNG in every stage of crafting.  Now it's both, which is killing the fun in this game.  Gathering resources for a couple of months just to have RNG give me a disappointing result is quite demoralising for us casual players.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have already posted my suggestions on the fine wood discussion a bit earlier in this thread so no need to post them again. However, at the end of all of this discussion there is one simple undeniable fact that cannot be avoided. People who engage heavily in PvP at the highest "levels" will always want the best "gear" one can achieve. Why? Because they realize that if they are fighting someone who is equally skilled and on equal terms even a 5% or 10% advantage is huge....it's as simple as that. The fact of losing against an equal opponent simply due to a gear advantage is something they are not ok with if it can be avoided. Losing to someone because they have a "build" that isn't ideally suited for a particular situation they can live with but losing because they had sub-par "gear" is not tolerable.

 

This is why I believe you either simply make ships all generic or you just allow players to fully customize their ships the way they see fit. Make every ship grey or gold with 3+5 and be done with it. In the old system I wouldn't even bother with anything less that a 3+5 ship...why should I? The rate at which they were lost was so low I had no reason to even bother with anything less. With the new system I will hop through all the the hoops I need to hop through till I get what i want then will go about my business as usual. The current system is actually more punishing to the "non-elite" if you will. It is harder and takes longer for them to even have access to the best ships....the "elite" will figure out a way to get them....always have and always will. 

 

I'm sorry but those of you who think the current system will encourage a more level playing field or to sail lower quality ships are simply expanding the gap between the upper echelon and everyone else. You are not going to change human nature of wanting the best....especially in a video game. Trading, crafting, and the whole "econ" as a playstyle should have more to do with making money or supplying resources to a nations war effort....such as building coastal defenses and maintenance, or increasing the number of ai patrols in friendly waters, or supplies that allow for offensive operations ie. port battles in enemy territory. I have never understood the mentality of those who think making a "gear check" gate will encourage people to settle for lesser ships, mods, or upgrades....it simply does not work that way. What it really does is increase the gap even further between the "elite" and everyone else.

 

I'm just sitting here laughing because I know the top 5% of PvP'ers in this game, or any other, will all have what they want soon enough and enjoy an even easier time slaughtering the other 95% of the player base. Go ahead and tell yourself whatever it is you want but I promise you that is the way it works in the real world.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The above post is pretty accurate.. gold ships will always be used.. sure the others are fine..but if I lose a battle in a green ship purple blue whatever..will always have in back of mind wonder how that would odd went in gold.

Any little extra benefit to pvpers is huge.. one level of ship only..make it easy. If you want to make it fun higher level craters can increase a stat a little.

Fine woods are great..increase the drop or get rid of compass. 1800 oak should be 100 fine sounds perfect.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No more fine woods, using only the furnishings and make the silver, gold and red wood rare. Not the furnishings based in the decoration of the 3D model.

You need furnishings to even build a basic frigate. They are already hard to get for certain counties (USA for one). Please don't make it harder.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think we need to get a fixed # fine wood per normal wood gathered.  That would get rid of a lot of the problem.  I would also like to be able to get get compass wood and fine wood in one gather.  As it is now I do better gathering 4 logs at a time because each time I gather its a 50-50 chance of getting some compass wood or some fine wood.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Make Ships Rare Again

 

Decide on which ships and ship types should be rare, no one can see which ship is exceptional, but we can see what type of ship it is. I'm tired of seeing everyone sailing rare ships everywhere, fleets shouldn't consist of pure 1st rates for example.

 

A ship of the line fleet should contain a bunch of 3rd rates, some 2nd rates and a few 1st rates. 1st and 2nd rates should be rare and expensive.

 

Rare ships:

 

All 1st rates

All 2nd rates

Some 3rd rates (Bellona?)

Other ships that are should be rare, or are simply better than the rest of their counterparts (think Frigate and Trincomalee)

 

  • Blueprints are one time use for aforementioned ships
  • Blueprints are acquired through combat, crafting or events ( not only events, but when blueprints are rare events can be an additional way of injecting them into the world )

How would this work?

 

  • The blueprints for these ships are random drop from combat(very low chance)
  • Blueprints can be researched through crafting, an RNG system where you research SOL blueprint, with a high chance of 3rd rate, mid-low chance of 2nd rate and low/very low for 1st rate

Why?

 

  • More variety in battles, people will use what they have
  • Developers can make new ships that aren't better than all the current ships, and they will actually be used. ( Right now if they are not better they will not be used because everyone can get any ship easily )
  • A sense of risk involved while using rare ships

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well how about looking at the quality of the ports where you may have a shipyard?  Some ports might have scrubs  for builders and others fine craftsmen.  There also  might be a limited amount of space in any one port to have ship made which means waiting your turn to get one built.  If you're in a rush, you might just have to settle for Billybob's Refurbished Pre-owned Ship Emporium in some shadowy end of your territory to get one built and the ship's questionable quality might cause random problems happening in battle....just throwing it out there!  :)

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At present, labor hours determine ship quality. Put more labor hours in, and a better ship comes out. Everyone gets labor hours, including alts which sit in harbor all day cranking out carriages and fine live oak logs.


 


According to Naval Action Craft (now out-of-date due to the Fine Wood addition, but still a guide)...


 


6,031 labor hours make a grey Victory. 7,271 make an exceptional Victory.


 


Thus exceptional ships were only very marginally more expensive than grey ships, from the crafter's perspective. Crafters accordingly farmed out all the level 0 shipbuilding jobs to create materials and frame parts, and just made the notes and ships. If they didn't farm out the notes too.


 


Fine wood didn't solve this question of cost. Fine wood is just another form of notes; a labor hour surcharge for increased quality. While that's fundamentally sound, the difference between 1, 2, 3 and 4 notes is the same as 16, 24, 32 and 40 fine wood. Only since fine wood is a random drop from farming normal wood, we see serious market distortions from people farming wood, dumping it to whatever source they can and only pursuing fine and compass wood.


 


The solution is three fold.


 


First, allow fine wood to be produced by a higher-level crafting recipe that consumes a large amount of normal wood. This lets people decide how to spend their labor hours; normal wood with a chance of fine wood, or fine wood destroying my normal wood. This economic choice will normalize behavior away from farming a huge normal wood surplus.


 


Second, the cost-to-quality increase needs to be geometric, not linear. Rather than 1, 2, 3, and 4 notes? 1, 2, 4, 8 notes. Rather than 16, 24, 32 and 40 fine wood, 16, 32, 64 and 124 fine wood. Now exceptional ships cost a very severe premium compared to fine ships, and one or two more upgrade slots over a Mastercraft may no longer be worthwhile to a buyer.


 


 


 


 


 


Third. If we want truely rare exceptional ships, we need to require something other than labor hours to produce them. Remember how most MMO's have big raids and dungeons where you can gather rare crafting materials needed to produce the best player-crafted weapons? There was a reason for this. By requiring players to engage the primary content of the game, combat, to produce the gear they needed for combat, they created a positive feedback loop to engage in the primary content, rather than remain in the secondary content of crafting.


 


Now I'm not suggesting raids and dungeons against AIs (although shipwrecks might remain as a PvE source for the following), but we need to add a crafting material, a finishing touch, that is required for all exceptional ships.


 


In sword-and-shield MMOs, you slay a dragon, acquire one of its claws, have it carved into an awe-inspiring sword and know you've faced great peril, overcome a tremendous challenge, and now have the finest weapon to do battle with. Everyone who sees you know's you've killed dragons.


 


Here there are no dragons, but sea captains still faced battle and brought home trophies. We need such a trophy. Something you only gain through difficult odds. Something you, as a sea captain, would strive to gain anyway. Something glorious, a badge of honor. A sign you faced great odds and overcame it.


 


Is there anything more glorious than capturing an enemy ship's colours, or the enemy captain's sword?


 


Would anything else signify that this man presenting this trophy of battle deserves the finest ship we can make?


 


 


 


For the purposes of the proposal, I'm going to call it a "Trophy". However, I have the idea that the trophy will be specifically a ship's colors, or the captain's sword, or some other thematic item. There will be seven grades of trophies, tied to the grade of the ship killed.


 


1st Rate Captain's Sword, or 1st Rate Colours, or 3rd Rate Captain's Sword, or 3rd Rate Colours, or "Flag Captain's Sword", "Midshipman's Sword"... however. Seven grades, for the seven ship ranks they'll be needed for.


 


When fighting in PvP (perhaps PvE for the PvE server -only-) you may rarely be awarded a trophy for a kill, or very rarely for an assist. To prevent farming, it needs to be PvP only, to prevent ganking, it needs to have BR requirements for "fairness".


 


If you are facing even BR odds (within, say, 5-10% range), you are eligible to receive a battle trophy for every player you receive kill credit for, and to a lesser degree for assist credit. The odds of a trophy are very slim, but increase as your BR odds become more and more against you. Thus, being ganked but managing to kill one of your attackers gives you a better chance of winning a trophy than if the enemy had fought on even odds. Being attacked by a larger fleet is now an opportunity to die well. Trophies are still rewarded to players who die in the battle at half odds.


 


Players in PVP are now encouraged to fight within 5-10% BR 'fairness', as it gives them a chance for trophies. They may not care to win trophies but only want kills; that's fine. But the target of uneven odds now has incentive to fight like hell and overcome for the better chance of a trophy he has.


 


Also, since trophies are rated based on the rank of the killed player, 1st rate trophies will be rather hard to get, and accordingly exceptional first rates will be very rare. However, there is a lot more action among lower ship ratings. Thus lower-rank ships will be easier to earn an exceptional trophy for. And since the chance to receive a trophy is a hidden percentage, it can be tuned silently if exceptional ships become too common, even on a rating-by-rating basis.


 


Captains who only play PvE will still have shipwrecks, themselves bearing trophies of their own ranks. A 6th rate shipwreck produces a 6th rate trophy.


 


Captains who play a lot of PvP may sell their unused trophies on the market. Farming trophies for money requires engaging in fair or uneven fights with enemy players, so go ahead and fight fair all day long.


 


But above all, trophies cannot be acquired through PvE content unless it involves shipwrecks and events. If a player can grind missions for trophies, never facing PvP, they can farm trophies and exceptional ships will become worthless once again.


 


Captured vessels will not have a higher chance of producing a trophy than a sunk vessel.


 


 


Between these three points:


 


1. Mastercraft and below ships can be created entirely through labor hours, with the labor hour price (notes and fine wood) increasing very steeply for higher grades.


2. Lower grade ships in PvP can be used to gain the ingredient needed for the Exceptional ship.


3. Exceptional ships require a crafting ingredient that cannot be gained through labor hours but require activity in the game's primary content at fair odds.


4. Players that find themselves in unfavorable odds are encouraged to face them bravely by the possibility of gaining exceptional ship ingredients at a better chance than fair odds would have given them. 


5. Exceptional ships can only be created through combat with ships of the same class as the desired ship, some of which will themselves be exceptional, and lose durabilities.


  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The flaw I think is the fact in the current system it's Exceptional ship or bust due to slot layout. This isn't the case for upgrades though and few are bothering to ask why.I use blue upgrades especially those with a major negative impact like Boarding Parties or Marines,a lot of players will select a happy mediu when there is an equally negative impact.

 

Say I offer you an Exceptional Victory. You'd take it right? What if it were limited to only 1 upgrade slot? What if I then offered you a Basic Victory with 3/5 upgrade slots? You'd take the Basic 3/5 instead of a single slot Exceptional? As it stands the only thing defining a ship as Exceptional are the slots available and this is a one way street that I've doubts can ever be balanced.

Now if we change Quality to mean ship stats (same as with upgrades) and amplify the costs in material in relation to quality stats (armor,speed,stiffness,regional effect) to the point one really has to ask if it's actually worth the added expense,in this case balance can be had.  In EVE Tech 2 is a product improved Tech 1 but at higher than a 1000% cost increase,the stat increase of Tech 2 certainly isn't 1000% yet the slot layout from Tech 1 to Tech 2 is little or no different. People pay for a slight edge when they feel it will work otherwise they use Tech 1.

An example: In EVE if I'm facing a "port battle" I'll bring a Tech 1 ship as whatever advantage a Tech 2 might bring is simply lost in the grand scheme of the fight. However if I'm anticipating a 1 v 1 I'll bring out my finest ship and hopefully that edge will see me through to victory,at the very least the ship will be on par and I'll have to use skill to win.

 

Allow the stats to be the deciding factor not the slot count. Why can't we test this? I know I'm asking a lot from the Devs to even consider it let alone actually test it but what could it hurt to give this a try? If it flunks out,unpopular then trash it and revert. If you adopt the stat based system with 3/5 slot as standard you could keep the fine log idea and get by just fine. To add to this, the new Regional trims would act in much the same way any upgrade does with varied percentages or amounts based upon said quality.

 

One more thought while here. The mention of rare. The desire to see Exceptional become rare by way of simple length of time won't work. People have the expectation that rare is something not so much earned but lucky,cannot be reproduced. Time isn't rare. The Santa Cecelia is rare,Exceptional Powder Moneys are rare,anything we can produce will not be as people will begin to compensate as has been seen with this update. 

If you want to introduce rare ships you already have,what would a player pay for an Exceptional Bermuda Cedar Endymion with Speed and Regional Speed Bonus? Hmmm? Someone with a need for speed would pay a handsome price indeed to own that ship! (I don't actually own one like this so don't PM/mail asking for it,I wouldn't sell it anyway) If the Quality were strictly to the stats of speed and the wood type..they'd still pay highly for it and moreso being rare.

 

This  could resolve the Exceptional or bust mentality and if it does,build on that but don't try to tell PvP players that 0/1 slots are just as acceptable as 3/5. It will never work. If 3/5 remains the definition of quality then expect no progress,that's human nature and I'll follow the herd.

Edited by (NPG) DragonfireActual
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, the fine wood concept works but doesnt at the same time. IMO they would've gotten a better result for a lot less headache by just increasing the consumption of the old resources. We all agree the goal is to reduce the number of line ships. When a santi takes ~1-1.5m in resources everybody is going to have one (or five) and treat it like the throwaway trash it is, What about if/when it takes 30m of readily available resources to build? People will treasure them. It will be less of an object to grind and more of a just reward for accomplishment both financially and of recourse accumulation. This could also help the port battle line ship issues as more people don't want to risk their tremendous investment.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...