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Port battles experience - ship variety and player participation feedback.

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Basing a major change like removing screening from port battles based on the extreme case of Bermuda is nonsense. I'd rather Bermuda sink into the Atlantic than lose the open world majesty that is a fleet of ships of the line sailing to battle.

 

Have you considered port battles being joined on a larger area, so its easier to avoid screening? Extend the port battle radius out for several kilometers, and join when inside the circle.

 

Multiple instances of port battles to allow more ships than 25 v 25? Battle-rating and ship class distributing the vessels?

 

Log-in drift ( http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/17089-solution-to-all-log-out-log-in-ow-abuses/ )to force some open-world maneuvering even if logging out on top of the destination port battle?

 

Port battles based on the open world design of the harbor, in which players bombard the forts and land marines to capture the two big square batteries, while defenders screen their forts to prevent the troop transport ships from reaching shore? In short, make something other than gold 1st rates useful? When Indiamen and Gros Vents with gold marines are as useful in a port battle as a Victory, and four or five times as expendable, we'll see other ships finding utility as well.

 

In short... change ANYTHING but making port battles a boring World of Sail arena fight. Open world maneuvering is not some arbitrary map we move between battles on. Open world fights, with their channels and capes and other features, are where the really enjoyable battles are going to be.

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I think the current mechanic is working well. Hostility has allowed for more PvP and Alliances are working. I think one of the main problems previously was it was too easy to take ports/land. Now it is hard to win a region and that is the way it should be. You mention Bermuda as a problem, but it is an exception to the rule, due to its location. Why completely change the game because of one port not being taken once?? Remove it from map at release, or dont make Berumuda the only place to get that type of wood spec. (give Fir the speed/no armor loss bonus).

 

Removing screening would be terrible, as previously mentioned you limit PB RvR to 25v25 players. I have had the most fun and best fights in screening battles, dont kill it. This idea of smaller nations being at a disadvantage does not have much weight currently as the smaller nations [with many active and experienced players] are in an Alliance. At the end of the day, defenders should have the advantages, and should be able to have 25 vs whatever the aggressors manage to get in. 

 

I do like the idea of mixing the PB fleet up, with 1sts, 2nds, 3rds (5/10/10?) for Lineship and 4th,5ths for current 4th rate battles. (10/15?)

 

I do not think you have given the suggestions around logout in front of port abuse the consideration they actually deserve.

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i have said it in other posts ill say it again here just because i like playing king of the hill.

 

take the battle and leave it open for 24 hours. take the towers and forts inside the battle and give them victory points based on the number of crew manning the towers. this means the attackers have to board the towers to capture them, then they have to fill the tower with crew (people in ships add crew from their ship) to start generating victory points. then you have to defend your towers for the rest of the day. after 24 hours whoever has the most victory points built up wins.

 

in the open world there would be a radius around the port so people joining the battle would spawn some distance away from the towers/forts. this would make screening the battle more difficult as there would be more area to cover. people joining the battle from the port would be able to join close to the towers. to avoid exploits, teleporting would need to be disabled during the battle.

 

this would give everybody in all time zones a chance to take part in the battle. i can see a wide variety of ships participating. alot of strategy would be involved.

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We can have ship variety in port battles and no need of lobby or something like that for coordination.

We have comms channels to coordinate our players so the fleet we want can enter the pb.

We have asked for variety for months. Please dont throw your iniatitive to the bin because there are some ideas from your proposal we dont like.

Edited by Intrepido

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All up for trying things, the ship mix is a good idea to play with, prefer a BR cap on different ports and once we see the Port Battles (with land etc) and how we need to deal with capture circles, fortifications etc that will allow for more informed input tbh.

 

I am like over 9000% against a 'lobby' magic teleport.

 

"The initial design that players have to sail to port battle was nice but the user experience is provides sometimes forces players to try to find creative ways to go around that experience. "

 

Fix the exploits. Don't ruin the system.

 

But lobby and enter will destroy the KEY part to keeping your player base going. You will lose your organised clans. It is THE CLAN that keeps a community together. Yes there needs to be fun for the lone players....but a port battle is a co-ordinated effort of 25 people working together plus the 25-50 people in the screening and scouting fleets. It is the NEED for large numbers of players to work together that CREATES the community. Look at every MMO from EVE, WOW, Guild Wars to see that, look at the #1 reason people come back...to have fun with their friends.

 

If you have to test it, then do it on shallow water ports or some such...make sure DEFENDERS also need hostility points to get in and if you have ZERO points you simply cannot enter. Make it so PvP gives more hostility points than Combat missions and tagging AI fleets gives 0 hostility points (as this is a cheap way of avoiding PvP in a PvP game).

 

Then when you do this...remember how much everyone HATES playing with PUGS in WoWS, WoTS and congratulate yourself on emulating those toxic, painful, unfun environments that we avoid to come here in the first place !

 

I try to be very open minded and level with my feedback. This (the lobby part) idea however is TERRIBLE.

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All I ask is that is that developers please take careful consideration of some of the responses involving possible ways to exploit the systems suggested.

 

If you want to create a system that can't be broken, you have to think like a guy who plans to break it. From there, you can work out solutions to problems before they exist.

 

Some here have already pointed out that such a system would be geared towards an advantage for people who raised 'ninja hostility' without ever actually seeking a PVP fight. I would suggest developers focus on that so they don't waste time creating a mechanic that is broken on day one, while the rest of us are stuck here saying "I told you so."

 

I still think the better solution lies in disallowing players to log off in sight of enemy ports, as previously suggested. Yet that doesn't solve the problem of attackers having claw their way through retagging efforts until time expires.

 

Then the fair question is: how do you reward attackers for breaking through the screening fleets (or escaping battle even, since their goal is to get to the port above all else). Perhaps if the fleet is poorly tagged in the 'red zone', then the attackers may escape and get to the port battle. Or they might even opt to fight their way through, rather than try to escape for the port battle. Perhaps the defenders suffer a morale penalty since their screening fleets failed them and the attackers are now on their doorstep. Or whatever.

 

Bit tired at the moment to come up with a really good suggestion. Maybe someone think of a way to exploit my suggestion so that I can improve upon it.

 

My other suggestion is just to have one giant battle instance around the port in contention and do away with the separate port battle instance altogether. Then make victory conditions weighted to allow for the allegedly 'smaller forces' to have at least a spitting chance. Biggest problem with that which I can foresee is that the server would have a stroke.

Edited by ajffighter86

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Since the patch I have personally seen 3 occasions where 100+ players have been involved in a port battle event... wether that be the PB itself or the events outside the port.

It's been great to feel part of an epic event.

It's great to be part of a social occasion.

It's been great access to pvp.

Why the hell do we want to throw this away for a lobby????? Improve the current mechanic don't dump it after 3 weeks.

Edited by skilgan
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Perform a wipe, make 2nd and 1st rate ships require fine woods even for basic crafting - and here you will get your ships diversity.

Don't balance PBs artificially - balance it naturally. 

 

Bigger nation should have advantage of numbers. Smaller nations negate this advantage through alliances. Take Bridgetown PB yesterday. GB is the biggest nation (maybe after Pirate "nation") but combined efforts of Danish, Swedish, French and even a ffew Pirate players completely wiped Dutch+British screening fleet. In reality such force would be able easilly capture fort. But stupid 25 vs 25 restriction prevented them.

 

You need to remove 25 vs 25 restriction. Ideally all presented ships should be able to enter the battle. If 25 vs 25 is rather game-engine restriction. Well, then it's really sad.

 

Someone else might have more points than you (which we don't consider the problem as full PBs are kind of rare). But it already could be an issue with staggered entry implemented with new hostility.


 

Haven't you seen yesterday's PB near Bridgetown? Full PB + around 40-50 combined Sweden, French, Danish forces outside PB. yeah, full PBs are kind of rare...

Edited by Vaan De Vries
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I like the idea in general as it will solve a multitude of problems but I think the lobby system idea needs to be restricted only to regions/counties adjacent to the one that has had a PB triggered e.g. PB at Bridgetown, Windward Isles, PB lobby only available in the windward isles region for Brits, lobby available for the adjacent enemy region that raised the hostility and triggered the PB.

 

Long voyages will still be necessary as you still need to establish an outpost in a particular theatre of operation to take part in a PB and obviously to raise the hostility to trigger the PB in the first place!

 

If ship compositions are limited perhaps they should be 'Admiralty owned' ships instead of providing your own ship for the PB. This will remove a lot of the meta 'issues' that have become apparent in PB's as the dev's will have control over the meta and not the players who will always look to exploit or circumvent rules (human nature). You can still use your own/clan crafted ships in OW but not in the PB itself - any metaness will then move to OW which is probably needs to be anyway. 

 

My t'uppance

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If Bermuda is the problem, remove that Region or remove bermuda cedar and put it somewhere else. It is realy not fun to sail there but the region is realy important because of bermuda cedar

Make the portbattle accessible 30 Minutes again. At the Battle of Bridgetown it was closed after 5 Minutes or so.

 

Make it, that the "cant join Battle" Timer will affect the "Join Portbattle" thing. This will eliminate the log in AND the "i jump out of the port and join the portbattle in a second".

 

Like that the defender and attacker is affected by screening fleets. The First Battle has to be won outside of the Port to get inside.

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REALLY LIKE the idea of a lobby. It removes the zerg and burnout inducing coordinations that you need to get to the PB, let alone fight it. 

 

It might seem like fun now, but it is a bit too hardcore in the long run. people will burn out fast, mostly due to the lack of results, as it is a fact that mounting a defense if you want to is much more effective than the attack.

 

With the screening bit replaced by the aggro gaining it should be fun for all.

And for the crybabies that yell a bout pvp: attacking players raises/lowers aggro much faster. Let that sink in.

Edited by Kloothommel
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Please let's not make this wonderful open world game regress into a 1725 version of world of warships. If we start going down this road with the lobby as the next step we will get rid of crafting and trading because it's to tideous on the way to the 25v25 mirror match and so on and so forth..... That will be a sad day when we/you realize that we are starting to eliminate the game you developed around the sea trials combat simulator

Edited by Chimera
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It's only for the port battles themselves. The aggro gain is still open world, enough pvp there. Or do you hide in missions?

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It's a compete disconnect between the two elements. Your next Rgument will be that you can't raise agh to with 25 players vs a "Zerg" and then we will cancel that too or make it a lobby system.....

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It might seem like fun now, but it is a bit too hardcore in the long run. people will burn out fast, mostly due to the lack of results, as it is a fact that mounting a defense if you want to is much more effective than the attack.

While I am completely against a lobby idea I believe this bit to be true. I just think the mechanics of the existing system need improving. Not scrapping.

Suggestions include:

Prevent teleports to regions which are at 100% hostility.

The open world towers no longer function at 100% hostility

I could even accept a system that attackers, which meet a hostility threshold, could teleport to the edge of a contested region so they don't have to sail the whole way again.

Must be plenty of other ideas.

I believe there are ways to make the current system work for both sides. What I strongly believe is that it should be tried before we are stuck with a lobby.

Edited by skilgan

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Like the ideas,

but what if Common Nation "Trolls" ( every Nation had some) use the mechanics to troll and sabotage their community in collect h. points to get into Pb on first Place?

Only a few of them could destroy the Game for many?

Only want to adress this to avoid the usuall flamewars if such problem happen.

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I like the overall intent of:

 

- More ship variety in battles

- more engagement in the wider community

- more relevance to the pre-battle

 

however I think you are in real danger of making this system too complicated, too 'gamey' and too elitist.

 

As you have laid it out I think you will get:

 

- only the very most elite players and those who can put the time in will get the best slots. normal players will simply never get a look in to the major battles. this is already a problem, making it a points system will make it worse.

- the whole open world system of getting to port battles and screening etc. is my absolute favorite part of the game. yes, it has been circumvented but there must be other ways of fixing this. this will mean that even less players are involved in port capture operations. there will be no place for frigate captains.

- 1st rates would become almost irrelevant. almost no one would ever need one, they would never sail in open water etc.

 

 

I think this is the wrong approach. perhaps you can institute a new type of 'open water' national fleet battle that has this arrangement. so for example fighting for control of some resources, or hostility events or trade fleets. which players then join from port.

 

It could go like this. you announce that at Xpm on date Y, a Spanish trade fleet (AI) will be intercepted by the British at area X. people can then go there and get area control points for a couple of days for precedence. then the battle happens with the points system as you described it. the winner gets to keep the trade fleet cargo as a prize.

 

This is semi-historical and also provides a way of having mixed open world fleet action, without ruining the port battles. you could also tie these open water fleet battles into hostility points in preparation for a port battle.

 

I love the idea of having fair mixed fleet battles, just, don't make this the ONLY fleet battle. there is something very awesome about 50 first rates fighting it out that you cant lose without totally alienating a lot of players.

 

Provide more options, don't replace one with another.

 

Yep...absolutely supporting his thoughts and sharing his sorrows !! The same goes for me:

 

The open world part is the best part of the game and absolutely critical because it brings everything to life !!

 

Change this, and you are not far away from the Ship Trials, old players had fought for a year :(

 

 

Best example how much you would kill the experience for Players when you would change the system to a Lobby-based one, was yesterdays battle for Bridgetown:

- I wanted to take part so badly, that i sailed around half of the map for over 2 hours, because i had no outpost over there, with my best combat ship...

- Because i underestimated the distance, i came too late for the screener fleet...

 

BUT:

1. The last third of the journey was so exciting because i was in constant danger of getting tagged, because i encountered enemy ships left and right

2. Even when being not able to take part in combat, only the sight of the overwhelming France Screening Fleet was so impressive and didnt let me regret the way

3. This coupled with all the PvP going on later on, when smaller and smaller fleets were chasing each other

4. I even got lately into a very satisfying 1 on 1

5. Without the PB and the need to go there, i would NEVER had visited this part of the map

6. Because i found 2 Sealed Bottles during my sailing, i decided even to travel the whole distance back again

---> didnt regret anything

 

If you would change to a Lobby system, all of this would vanish!! Pls dont do that...you have here mostly hardcore simulation players who love this niche game and will support you at anytime, as long as you dont change the heart of the game

 

Dear Devs... there have to be better ways for improving PB than raping your own game and your excellent design decisions so far !!!

Edited by Sir Max Magic
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REALLY LIKE the idea of a lobby. It removes the zerg and burnout inducing coordinations that you need to get to the PB, let alone fight it. 

 

It might seem like fun now, but it is a bit too hardcore in the long run. people will burn out fast, mostly due to the lack of results, as it is a fact that mounting a defense if you want to is much more effective than the attack.

 

With the screening bit replaced by the aggro gaining it should be fun for all.

And for the crybabies that yell a bout pvp: attacking players raises/lowers aggro much faster. Let that sink in.

 

Defenders will always have an advantage, particularly when forts are re-done.

 

Not everyone necessarily wants to get to the PB, either. Port battle events are like blood in the water for the PVP sharks. Port battles are a huge neon sign flashing the words: "FIGHT HERE."

 

Even pirates, who claim they have no interest in port battles, will show up at free towns to see what they can pick off when enemies are moving to areas where port battles will be.

 

The hostility system, while interesting and certainly an improvement over the conquest flags, is going to need a lot of improvement before it ever reaches the level of open world PVP activity that port battles bring.

Edited by ajffighter86

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Here is my opinion

The port should be open to attack the moment hostility reaches 100.  Each port should have a BR limit depending on the size of the region. (Basic  example 800 BR x the number of settlements in the region per side) A cap of 25 ship limit could of course remain.

The port battle should stay open for the entire duration of hostilities, both sides should be able to reinforce a port battle. A similar system to the hostility system needs to be in place inside the battle. Sinking ships and holding ground should cause or reduce hostility depending on attacker or defender.

Occupational hostility should increase with the BR  of the ships inside, this means if you tried to ninja  a port in a small ship alone  it would take all night.

Fortifications inside the port battle should be ale to be softened up outside in the open world if its at all possible by attacking them and creating another battle outside, it would be great if multiple battles were going on that could all effect the invasion and it would allow bigger ships outside that cant get in the port battle itself to at least bombard the shore defences.

 

Most importantly, it should not be possible to teleport to a port that has reached 100% hostility, even more importantly anyone killed in the area can not respawn in a region with 100% hostility.

So if you die in the port battle or outside it, you are not going to respawn in the same region.

Edited by Fletch67

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Perform a wipe, make 2nd and 1st rate ships require fine woods even for basic crafting - and here you will get your ships diversity.

Don't balance PBs artificially - balance it naturally. 

 

Bigger nation should have advantage of numbers. Smaller nations negate this advantage through alliances. Take Bridgetown PB yesterday. GB is the biggest nation (maybe after Pirate "nation") but combined efforts of Danish, Swedish, French and even a ffew Pirate players completely wiped Dutch+British screening fleet. In reality such force would be able easilly capture fort. But stupid 25 vs 25 restriction prevented them.

 

You need to remove 25 vs 25 restriction. Ideally all presented ships should be able to enter the battle. If 25 vs 25 is rather game-engine restriction. Well, then it's really sad.

 

Haven't you seen yesterday's PB near Bridgetown? Full PB + around 40-50 combined Sweden, French, Danish forces outside PB. yeah, full PBs are kind of rare...

We are likely in the minority, but I am also of the opinion that they only way to truly test everything accurately is to do a complete asset wipe. Everything from port battles to trading currently is distorted by assets which remained after the reset.

 

The amount of rage that would cause would be enormous, but I think it must be done.

Edited by ajffighter86

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I know there will be an outcry but I partially agree. I just don't think it's the right time for the wipe yet

1. Test RVR mechanics and PB mechanic with new land of possible. For this step you need ships to be available to test it in a situation that doesn't only represent the first 2-3 month where nobody has a lot of ships.

2. Asset wipe to test economy and crafting

3. Asset and map wipe before release

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This is a terrible idea. You want an open world game, then you cant have a lobby for Port battles!

 

This will be the FINAL nail in the coffin of Naval Action if it is implemented.

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