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Splinter damage feedback - EXTREMELY IMPORTANT

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I would be ok with a nerf to bow raking.  I am killing more crew from bow rakes over stern rakes sometimes.  Bows were usually good at bouncing shots because of the curvature of their structure.  I feel like Bow Rakes should be about half as effective as stern rakes.  

 

I managed to bow rake a few SoL and killed 50+ crew in a connie.  Seems a little bit too good to me.

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Because raking matters. And a good rake has consequences. No more Stern/Bow Tanking.

 

(It didn't before.) 

Ok, so you think smaller amount of damage could not do it?

 

You only think stern/bow tanking here?  And you do not think that how this affects to the rest?

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Ok, so you think smaller amount of damage could not do it?

 

You only think stern/bow tanking here?  And you do not think that how this affects to the rest?

 

Slightly less damage maybe. But only slightly. Like 5-15% Reduction in Crew Damage.

 

I'm not only thinking stern/bow tanking but that is the primary thing about raking damage. 

I do think how this affects the rest and so, when i say i think it is in a sweet spot right now i really mean that ^^

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Raking damage is still insane and much too high. Not only does it adversly affect the game, see below, but also much too high compared to history.

People often cite the events of the Bucenteure as example how damaging rakes are. Yet they ignore that she was raked 11 times and was being shot at for hours. Yet in the game a single ship can deal the same kind of damage in minutes.

And there are also other occurances where a rake, for example from the 40 gun frigate Poursuivante against the 3rd rate Hercule, only resulted in "a couple of wounded and no dead".

From a game mechanic point of view raking is now the only way to win battles. Everyone only tries to rake the enemy because it is so stupidly effective. Wood types, armor, penetration, everything does not matter anymore. What now wins is turning rate only which results the Constitution which was build as a frigate hunter now having a severe disadvantage against frigates as they can outturn her.

Imagine there was a wood type which improves turning. Everyone would now take it.

What the devs also forget is that it is much more easy to rake in Naval Action than in real life. That combined with the ahistorical high raking damage results in it being the only effective combat tactic.

Lastly, the insane raking damage makes Grape useless. Why load grape and sacrifice potential hull or mast damage (in the few cases when you want to waste your shot on a non rake) when a rake with ball kills crew in droves?

Edited by Ixal
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Slightly less damage maybe. But only slightly. Like 5-15% Reduction in Crew Damage.

 

I'm not only thinking stern/bow tanking but that is the primary thing about raking damage. 

I do think how this affects the rest and so, when i say i think it is in a sweet spot right now i really mean that ^^

Everything affects to everything, especially if this kind of radical change is done.

 

For example, there is some task to complete, and you want to define the best possible wood type for a ship to complete that task.  You could have gone with LO, but now you think that do I really need that strong hull?

 

Think about some new guy, who got his 1st Constitution, he does not know the game so well..  Then some puny Frigate comes there and rakes him in couple minutes, and wins the fight.  How good feeling this leaves for the new guy?  USS Constitution lost in couple minutes?  How realistic game that is?  I say, the game sucks at the moment, more than it ever has for me.  The crew damage is insane.  I really mean that ^^

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Ye Gads! If they're a newer player in a 4th Rate then they're just asking to lose. Repeatedly. If they've not learnt what they're up to by the time they hit the rank for a 4th Rate's crew size, then they really need to go and watch a few short youtube videos on sail/ship handling, how to wear & tack, and watch a few battles by skilled players. Holding a player's hand will not help them learn to be better, only through experience and failure do we learn to improve.

 

What the higher raking damage does is raise the skill bar. To rake you need to be aware of: your approach, your ship's relation to the wind and opponent, be able to read and counter your opponent's intentions, line up your run well (and hope to not have a wave spoil it), to hit at the right point that you're not shooting too low or too high (which does happen), to know how to maximise your rake as you sail past (fire the broadside or gun by gun). You also have to know your next move so that you don't end up in irons or putting yourself into your opponents line of fire, or slowing/positioning yourself badly so that you can be boarded. Also knowing which opponent to rake is important. Trying for the stern of a small ship such as a Brig, Snow or Rattlesnake is risky due to their high turn rates and the tiny target they present, but raking a Constitution is easier due to its size. Control your speed, think how to outsmart your opponent, know your own ship's weaknesses and strengths, and you'll be halfway there.

Edited by Rikard Frederiksen
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...What the higher raking damage does is raise the skill bar. ...

There are guys in 1st rates and they don't know how to play.  I am not trying to defend them from that, but there are.  Getting a Connie is not that big thing really.

 

The rake damage decreased the skill bar, and a lot.  Devs told that now they have got reports from people winning 1vs3.  So they are happy?  This is possible because of the skill bar?  It was already possible to win pretty hard fights.  Now they just made it easy.  Also, I do not know why they like that it is easy to win 1vs3, it is like 1vs3?  Like why they even want that to be easy?

 

...

 

It is not skill that you understand to rake and cause massive damage.  It is simply OP, and broken.

 

...

 

Real life:

Super Frigate USS Constitution

 

"Realistic" Naval Action:

Subpar Frigate USS Constitution

Edited by Cmdr RideZ

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If a player is winning in a 3 vs. 1 when their opponents have the greater chance to bring more guns to bear on the stern/bow, then yes, that is a display of skilled play. The rake damage doesn't only apply to the balls coming from the guns of the fellow who is on his own. People need to unlearn their habits of tanking with sterns/prows, realise that showing it is a massive risk*, and take steps to prevent it from happening, thinking through their actions and intentions, and comprehend when it is best to just take a broadside on the flank rather than automatically turning and thus showing the weakest part of the ship. You can force muzzle-to-muzzle fights but you have to know how to get your ship into that position against the ship your opponent is using**.

 

I have absolutely no issues at all with the current levels of damage. Originally post-patch it was horrific (my highest was 192 crew killed with a single broadside on a Bellona, using a (grey) Essex & 32pd carronades), and incredibly over the top, but now I find it more than acceptable. Maybe it could be reduced further, slightly, but I also think it is at a sweet spot where a rake is scary and horrible to suffer, but at the same time it isn't too debilitating. It can be the move which wins you the battle or, if mistimed/misjudged, lead you to have empty cannons and in danger from your opponents guns. Risk vs. Reward.

 

*Weakest part of the ship, often with weakest armament (think only the Surprise bucks this trend).

**I survived an engagement with another Rattlesnake with an AI Niagara in tow on the 4th November. I found out, after several awful rakes (I would estimate 1/8th of my shots at the stern actually hit, fewer doing damage), that my ability to take/deal damage was greater and I forced my opponent to engage me muzzle-to-muzzle. Whilst our engagement ended in a draw with a gentleman's agreement and due honours and compliments to either side, much of the actual fighting was muzzle-to-muzzle, where I had the edge.

Edited by Rikard Frederiksen
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Well it didn't work for me. I tried to target his mast but then the surprise was on me very quickly raking. With the first shock I couldn't react for 30 seconds and received a second rake with another crew shock. In a way what handicapped me the most at the beginning was the crew shocks and then the loss of crew, making impossible to do anything.

 

I lost 320 crew just by raking and was left with 180.

 

What makes the difference in this kind of fight is turn speed mainly. It didn't matter what kind of wood my ship was made of or what trim I used. Or how I was positioning myself in regard to the wind while engaged.

 

I know that from now I wont get out anymore in a Constitution alone. I'll stick to 5th rate with high turn speed.

 

Before the rake (buff) I remember being able to survive an encounter against a Santa Cecilia (which as a very good turning rate) without sinking. I can't imagine that scenario possible in the game now.

 

Then you spawned too close to the enemy ships. It all starts on the OW. 

Connie vs Surprise you have 2 options. 

1. Spawn Downwind (As far downwind as possible) and chain the Surprise as he gets close. (Or go for Mast's)

2. Spawn Upwind (As far upwind as possible), in this situation you need to be a good shot. Knock off the Bowsprit of the Surprise and then knock it off again when he has used his Sail Repair. 

- When he is without Bow Sprit you got huge advantage because without a Bow Sprit tacking takes a very long time, even in a Surprise.

 

But yes, sailing bigger, less maneuverable ships has become more difficult. But that doesn't mean your big ship doesn't have any advantages over the smaller ships.

Play it right and you can win the match against 2 or even 3 smaller frigates.  

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All smaller frigates should fear USS Constitution, not the opposite.

Connie should be very strong vs smaller frigates.  It was already in nerfed state in the game.  It was the best frigate from the age of sail?

 

Huge amount of balancing to be done or just think something else for rake than massacre.

 

We have to get people back shooting the sides, so that the fights have immersive feeling.  Rake damage on level that if you get a rake change you want to take it, but you do not just try to rake.  With smaller frigates, even before this patch, everyone was already raking.  Now it is just faster and easier.

 

It should feel good to get a nice clean shot to the side.

 

Immersive feeling is important.  Right now the immersion has decreased, as guys are just spinning around trying to rake.

 

 

Then you spawned too close to the enemy ships. It all starts on the OW. 

Connie vs Surprise you have 2 options. 

 

Connie is more expensive, has higher BR, almost 2xBR.  Why it cannot be better?

Connie was a frigate killer, surprise should be easy for it, and not the opposite.

Edited by Cmdr RideZ
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I can't believe I am reading so many negative comments about the rake changes. Raking should be devastating I am sorry, the stern is the weak spot on the ship, and must be protected. A Connie can easily take out a surprise or any other 5th rate 1v1. Learn to adapt to the new game mechanics or lose your ships. Do all you can to prevent the rakes. All it takes is 1 solid broadside of chain into a surprises sails in a Connie and the surprise should no longer be able to stern camp a connie. The surprises sails and masts are so weak that it does not take much to bring the sails down or masts.

Please leave stern raking as is.

There is a very good reason why 3rd rates and higher were called ships of the line. The purpose of the line was to protect the sterns of friendly ships.

Edited by Yar Matey

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Connie is more expensive, has higher BR, almost 2xBR.  Why it cannot be better?

Connie was a frigate killer, surprise should be easy for it, and not the opposite.

 

Connie is a frigate killer if you play it right.

 

In a battle of 2 Captains with equal skill, one in Connie, one in Surprise. The Connie will win every time. 

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It's overpowered. This pic is from the losing side of the Battle of Trafalgar. The Bucentaure was raked as we know but was then engaged by several 74's so losses were high. Even then it was only 40%. English losses were much less by a long way. I don't think you can take data from a frigate battle and extrapolate it. In either direction. A couple of hits from a 42 lb cannon on a cutter and it's game over....whatever a model might say. The SOL's were travelling fortresses. and I don't think you can apply frigate physics to it.  

The Victory, which came under sustained attack suffered just under 20% losses. This doesn't seem to line up with the battle data you are basing your calculations on. 

 

Battle_of_Trafalgar_French_and_Spanish_C

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I can't believe I am reading so many negative comments about the rake changes. Raking should be devastating I am sorry, the stern is the weak spot on the ship, and must be protected.

Connie is a frigate killer if you play it right.

 

In a battle of 2 Captains with equal skill, one in Connie, one in Surprise. The Connie will win every time. 

I am sorry guys, but the game has never before looked this unrealistic.

Like how the hell you can like the spinning ships?  Who cares about the rake damage if it looks like "Robot Wars"?

 

Connie should not be bad vs Surprise, even if the Connie is owned by a guy who does not know the meta.  So the game is not as good as it could be, the results from battles should be different, to create immersion.  Bigger and better ships in n00b hands are lost fast, which is not fun for new guys. etc.  Think about the game, how to make is succeed.

 

If SeaMists statement is valid, if would mean you are asking even unrealistic damage.  There was some other guys pointing out the same.  So as you are after "realistic" damage, then why?

 

There are other battles where the enemy split the line, and raked bow/stern.  Approaching vessels did not take massive crew damage through bow.  Or did they?  The Victory suffering 20% casualties?  In Naval Action that tactic, I don't know, would that work really?

 

So IF the realistic data is even against you, well..  Your only statement why we should have this rake damage -> "l2p n00bs"?

 

...

 

Also, this crew damage makes it easier for experienced guys to win new guys.  So if you guys are experienced players, I can kinda understand why you have your point of view.

Edited by Cmdr RideZ

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Connie should not be bad vs Surprise, even if the Connie is owned by a guy who does not know the meta.  So the game is not as good as it could be, the results from battles should be different, to create immersion.  Bigger and better ships in n00b hands are lost fast, which is not fun for new guys. etc.  Think about the game, how to make is succeed.

I'm still not a fan of molly-coddling players. You can give a player the best ship in the 'meta', loaded with the best choices of mods and armament, but they'll still lose consistently if they don't know what they're doing. As I've said before, skill and knowledge play pivotal roles. I started off knowing practically nothing beyond clicking for the guns would make them fire and that I could turn the rudder to larboard/starboard. Sea Trials was painful for me, as was early Open World. I must have been so frustrating to be alongside in larger battles, trigger-happy and tunnel-focused as I was. Yet I applied myself, and I'm a damned lazy fellow, but I learnt how to be an at least capable captain who can be an absolute pain to fight against. I didn't do that through being molly-coddled. I can understand your concern for new players, as this is a niche game that won't have the quick-action appeal of arena-type games, but I'd hate to see gameplay devalued just to try and retain a few people who might not stay the course.

 

What I think you're wanting to do is put a bandage on the arm when the wound is on the leg; as in, you want to devalue raking damage because turn rates are an issue. The rakes should be tweaked but not devalued. However, how turning works should be go under review - acceleration was altered so I would be amazed if we don't see turning redone. If turning becomes more realistic (accelerated turns), as in less of the spinning ships you mention, then you will no doubt see the number of stern rakes decrease. With one caveat: where a skilled and knowing captain faces off against a lower skilled opponent who doesn't know what they're doing.

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I'm still not a fan of molly-coddling players. You can give a player the best ship in the 'meta', loaded with the best choices of mods and armament, but they'll still lose consistently if they don't know what they're doing. As I've said before, skill and knowledge play pivotal roles.

 

What I think you're wanting to do is put a bandage on the arm when the wound is on the leg; as in, you want to devalue raking damage because turn rates are an issue.

I don't want that it is easy for experienced players either.  Connie vs Surprise, it should be always challenging for Surprise to win a Connie.  Good players with skill, should still be able to win a Connie.  But not leave this kind of weak spot to be exploited with facerolling skillz.  Before the last patch, people won Connies with Surps, but it was not as easy as atm.

 

We can leave it like this, but we have to balance it vs the rest now.  Turn rates could be one thing.  Then we have changed rake and turn rates, and will the rest work well?  Like I said, we can either make the rake damage to fit with the rest, OR rebalance the rest to fit with the rake damage.

 

Combat was good already.  To think, balance, test, etc. everything again.  Or just make the rake damage to fit the current game.  Which path you want devs to take?  Which path the devs want to take?

 

I personally think, that the combat was really good already.  Just tuning the rake damage, balance the cannons, and fix the known issues we have atm.  This is faster way, more certain to provide good combat before the launch.  To start testing everything again, well, this will take time.

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When Serieuse (Magicienne, Fregate de 12) fired on Orion (Canada class 74) she caused 2 wounded. The reply broadside (double shotted at close range) reduced her to a drifting wreck, sinking at around the time the French van capitulated.

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While the rays of the shot through the ship works might be warrant a check I do firmly believe it is important:

 

- to review the 9.8 wooden walls - yes most community cried for some reason but SOLs felt like it and what Lieste points above was possible.

 

- wind, rigging, rudder - all ships fight at different "dimension" always with their best wind in play regardless. Of course a frigate will be more weatherly all the time.

 

- gun stabilization. Coming out of a sharp turn, bouncing up and down and heeling toward the lee side and can with no big issue train the guns vertically in the blink of an eye - shot by shot - and deliver maximum effect.

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All smaller frigates should fear USS Constitution, not the opposite.

Connie should be very strong vs smaller frigates.  It was already in nerfed state in the game.  It was the best frigate from the age of sail?

 

Huge amount of balancing to be done or just think something else for rake than massacre.

 

We have to get people back shooting the sides, so that the fights have immersive feeling.  Rake damage on level that if you get a rake change you want to take it, but you do not just try to rake.  With smaller frigates, even before this patch, everyone was already raking.  Now it is just faster and easier.

 

It should feel good to get a nice clean shot to the side.

 

Immersive feeling is important.  Right now the immersion has decreased, as guys are just spinning around trying to rake.

 

 

Connie is more expensive, has higher BR, almost 2xBR.  Why it cannot be better?

Connie was a frigate killer, surprise should be easy for it, and not the opposite.

 

Have you seen the ridiculous collection of PvP victories that Liquicity posts in global chat every now and then? All, or almost all of them, made solo in a Surprise.

Fair few 4th rates in there. But I forget myself, that's impossible, eh?  :rolleyes:

 

Stop talking in absolutes...

Skill matters and someone with no idea how to play gets punished for it just as it should be.

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The amount of opponents that give me the wind is perplexing.

 

The amount of opponent that willingly turn their stern at the worst moment possible is beyond belief.

 

The amount of opponents that forget to use ALL types of ammo through the battle is quite numerous.

 

And I am, skill wise, the average joe. We can go in circles all day.

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When Serieuse (Magicienne, Fregate de 12) fired on Orion (Canada class 74) she caused 2 wounded. The reply broadside (double shotted at close range) reduced her to a drifting wreck, sinking at around the time the French van capitulated.

Why the captain of Serieuse did not rake the shit out from the Orion?  n00b, l2p!

 

Have you seen the ridiculous collection...

I think you should read my post again.

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It's because people still turning there stern into the enemy's guns and receive a perfect rake.

Just keep turning show your sides, don't give them a clear shot on your stern. Sail close to the wind, fight for the weather gage. You will notice much less crew loss

Don't sail around in SOL's by your self, 2 SOL's together are almost impossible to take, fighting against frigates, if they are working together.

I think players are still tanking to much with stern and bow and don't know how easy it is to avoid stern rakes. It will take time until players learn from mistakes. The current system is spot on in my opinion, getting raked hurts how it should be but it has to be a perfect rake.

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IMO, when the patch was released, splinter damage was exaggerated, but now its too nerfed. In the age of sail, splinters were really deadly. The thing is that currently, the game do not differentiate between killed and wounded crew, their functions and assignments.

 

Edited by stormridersp

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Amount of crew killed by rake is WAY to big imo - not talking here about historical facts but GAME we playing. No variety in tactics at the moment during combat, just kill fast crew like before was same with demasting - 200+ dead in one rake - JOKE. I belive this will be FIXED asap. I can understand that orginal intention was to short fight time but...come on one rake and thats it?. We in PoDW usually fight against superior forces (usually 1:2 ratio) and now OUR SKILL not matter at all since we loosing crew as crazy. Killing fun from game and game breaking imo.

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From my experience, there seems to be a discrepancy between how devastating rakes are for different ships.  If I rake a constitution, St. Pavel, or a 3rd rate, I can easily kill massive amounts of crew.  I was in a constitution, and I raked a St. Pavel, and killed 200+ men.  When I rake a Bucentaure, I kill on the order of 40-60 men. 

 

I also notice a huge discrepancy between the constitution and the 2 new ships in the lower classes, the Indefatigable and the Endymion.  Its not just stern raking though, If I go broadside to broadside right next to one of these ships using grape I am killing hardly any crew at all whereas, if I am in a Constitution and I receive a broadside of grape, the crew losses are devastating (no boarding prep), I easily lose or kill 50+ crew in or against a constitution.

 

It seems as though some ships have become obsolete due to how much easier it is to kill crew on them.  I recommend that the developers look into this as the new meta seems to support certain ships because they are more resistant to losing crew than others of the same rate.  Kind of like the rattlesnake before the most recent set of patches, you simply couldn't kill the crew on a rattlesnake. 

Edited by Yar Matey
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