Agamemnon (wacky looking guns)

[Sir. Cunningham]

Just saw a picture of the Agamemnom ingame and I my eye emmediately caught  that the middle deck guns were sticking out waaaay too much compared to the guns on the main gun deck:

 

 

Doesn't look very good IMO, definitely hoping that gets looked into cause she's one of my fav historical ships :'(

 

 

PS: I don't think this is a case of longs & mediums being mixed, and this is based on issues with other ships.

[Rychu Karas]

Longs and meds!!!111

it's a part of the game mechanics

Edited October 13, 2016 by Rychu Karas

[Anolytic]

Looks like someone put longs on the middle deck and mediums on the bottom deck.

[Sir. Cunningham]

I highly doubt that we're looking at long & medium guns being mixed here, esp. since every ingame photo of the Agamemnon looks the same

 

Also the issue has been seen on other ships, and that often because the lower guns aren't modelled fully the same way as the rest of the guns.

 

 

Another picture:

[Sir. Cunningham]

But then again this seems to be a problem for a lot of ships ingame once long guns are put on them, the guns simply stick out way to much compared to any period depictions.

 

For example sticking long guns on the St. Pavel and it looks quite odd how far out the guns pertrude, it definitely looks nothing like this similar ship:

 

Now keep in mind that historically almost all rated shits carried "long guns", the medium guns we have ingame were very rarely used on navy ships, thus I really do think that perhaps the ingame gun models need to be looked at and refined abit. They need their own models instead of just one model seemingly being scaled up or down IMHO.

[Chimera]

Don't know if it's true, but I've heard that the 24pound long guns may have the wrong model (the one for the 24 pound mediums)

That's what makes it look wacky.

Medium gun models on the bottom deck.

[admin]

regarding guns sticking out on historical references or period depictions

 

lets not get ahead of ourselves

 

historical references

 

period depictions

 

 

[Fluffy Fishy]

I'd personally like to see all kinds of guns defined with some advantages and disadvantages, be it long guns, medium guns, short guns and cut down guns of all different sizes but then again balance might be a bit of a nightmare. I'd even like to see iron vs bronze guns

[Sir. Cunningham]

regarding guns sticking out on historical references or period depictions

 

lets not get ahead of ourselves

 

historical references

 

 

 

No'ones getting ahead of themselves, you simply don't see it on rated ships. I've never seen the guns stick out as much as they often do ingame on any period painting by Nicholas Pocock, J.M.W. Turner, George Chambers etc etc...

 

Also you use the Trinc as an example, but with long guns ingame even that seems to have them stick out further than on the real thing. But the real issue is with rated ships ingame, not the frigates.

 

Perhaps the issue is the size of the guns ingame in scale, I'm not sure? But it definitely doesn't look right.

 

 

Historically you never see it on rated ships:

 

 

 

Btw I'm sorry for bringing this up yet again but as a history major it just annoys the living daylight out of me and really kills the immersion >.<

[Sir. Cunningham]

Check out all of Nicholas Pocock's paintings, famous for his realistic depictions, they all show the guns not sticking out particularly far from the hull.

 

[Sir. Cunningham]

Then of course there's the HMS Victory today, albeit it should be noted that on the first pic her main lower guns aren't rolled out completely:

 

[maturin]

Whatever the reality is, can we all agree that less pokey guns look better, aesthetically speaking?

[Sir. Cunningham]

Whatever the reality is, can we all agree that less pokey guns look better, aesthetically speaking?

 

A lot better, but mostly because it's how I've always seen them on period depictions plus the few real ships still present.

 

The Trincomalee is perhaps the only frigate I know of where the guns stick out a fair bit, but it's still not this bad:

[Sir. Cunningham]

But nevermind the Trincomalee or frigates really, it's the rated ships where you just never see them sticking out very far:

 

 

[Sir. Cunningham]

That's the length of the whole gun though Hodo, this is about how far they pertrude from the hull which would depend both on the size of the carriage (1), thickness of the hull (2) as well as how far in practice they were rolled forward into battery (3) which in turn would depend on the tackles (4).

[Sir. Cunningham]

No reproductions Hodo, they are the real deal. Also Nicholas Pocock, a navy man of long lineage, would've painted it as realistically as he could, he wouldn't have omitted such a aesthetically important detail as how far the guns stuck out - it actually makes quite the visual difference.

 

Anyway length wise there actually wasn't much difference between the 12, 24 & 32 pdrs on the Victory, neither in terms of the barrel or carriage:

 

 

Over half the length of the gun is covered by the carriage.

 

 

HMS Victory (Old stern gallery) - Nicholas Pocock:

[Sir. Cunningham]

So let us figure from the end of the barrel to the carriage is 4.5ft.    Still talking 3ft of gun sticking out the side.

 

Not saying it isn't unrealistic for the Leda class to have damned near 6ft sticking out of the side of its hull.

 

2-3 ft maybe yes, but it depends on the carriage & thickness of the hull ofcourse.

 

The 12 pdrs on the Victory, 60-65% of the length of the gun is taken up by the carriage:

[Sir. Cunningham]

Guns came in a plethora of sizes.

Length is breech ring to muzzle, cascable and breech add some additional length behind the breech ring.

1743 Brass:

32lb 10ft

24lb 9.5ft

18lb 9.5ft

12lb 9ft

6lb 8ft

3lb 7ft

1.5lb 6ft

1743 iron:

32lb 9.5ft

24lb 9.5ft

18lb 9ft

12lb 9ft

9lb 8.5ft

6lb 7ft

3lb 6.5ft

1.5lb 4.5ft

Iron 1766: (ship - battering and field have different patterns)

32lb 9.5ft

24lb 9.5ft

18lb 9ft

12lb 9ft

9lb 8.5ft

6lb 6.5ft

3lb 4.5ft

1.5lb 3ft

1780 Iron:

42lb 9.5ft

32lb 9.5ft

24lb 9.5ft, 9ft

18lb 9ft

12lb 9ft, 8.5ft, 7.5ft

9lb 8.5ft, 7.5ft, 7ft

6lb 9ft, 8ft, 6ft

4lb 6ft, 5.5ft

3lb 4.5ft

Armstrong pattern:

42lb 9.5ft

32lb 9.5ft

24lb 9.5ft, 9ft

18lb 9ft

12lb 9ft, 8.5ft, 7.5ft

9lb 9ft, 8.5ft, 8ft, 7.5ft, 7ft

6lb 9ft, 8.5ft, 8ft, 7.5ft, 7ft, 6.5ft, 6ft

4lb 6ft, 5.5ft

3lb 4.5ft

0.5lb 3ft

Blomfield (Siege, Garrison & Sea)

42lb 9.5ft

32lb 9.5ft

24lb 9.5ft, 9ft

18lb 9ft, 8ft

12lb 9ft, 8.5ft, 7.5ft

9lb 9ft, 8.5ft, 7.5ft, 7ft

6lb 8.5ft, 8ft, 7.5ft, 7ft, 6.5ft, 6ft

4lb 5ft

3lb 4.5ft

(Land)

12lb 6ft (two types)

9lb 5.5ft

 

 

The important thing to note here is how small the difference in sizes actually were. From iron guns forward the std size for 12 pdr and up to 42 pdr was 8.5 to 9.5 ft. In other words very little difference.

[Sir. Cunningham]

The 24 pdrs on the USS Constitution:

[Sir. Cunningham]

Oh I how I hope you take this to heart and do something about it GL, or I'll be heartbroken :'(

[Sir. Cunningham]

I don't know for sure ofcourse, but this is as far as I ever see them out:

 

Also notice how small the guns seem compared to the ship. Could the long guns ingame perhaps be abit too large in scale?

[Sir. Cunningham]

The last picture looks pretty close to my Connie with longs.  

 

The Trinc on the other hand. 

 

Can't remember how it looks on the Connie, but it's mostly an issue on the rated ships where the gun models actually swap when you change between gun types. Something isn't adding up though.

 

Putting longs on the St. Pavel or Ingermanland also looks strange, and I've always thought that the guns on the Bellona stuck out too much.

 

The below highly detailed 3D model of the 3rd rate HMS Collossus made to spec is more what I'd expect to see:

[Sir. Cunningham]

Engineer drawing for the USS Constitution:

Again the guns don't stick out much at all, just about 2½ feet, same as we see on the pictures.

Infact the only period depictions of guns sticking way out are of 17th century galleons which carried the absurdly long bronze cannons of up to 15 ft in length. Indeed here the guns pertrude a lot, but this obviously changed when it was realized that the guns were ~6 feet longer than they needed to be in order to reach max velocity. In the 18th century the guns were rarely over 9 ft as also seen on the list provided by Lieste.

As for those long bronze cannons of the 17th century, here's Vasa's artillery in scale 1/10th :

Now obviously when your guns are that long they will pertrude quite abit, as these examples of 17th century galleons illustrate:

[Sir. Cunningham]

Yes apparently Vasa's deck guns were shorter than usual, her chasers were long demi culverins which were normally the main guns on the Galleons and they were quite long as depicted on the illustrations above, often times much longer than the later iron guns of the 18th century. Also as you point out the hulls of galleons usually werent that thick, not even on a huge warship such as Vasa. Wish I had a similar drawing for the Vasa though.

 

Anyway as the technical drawing of the USS Constitution proves even the biggest long guns of the 18th century didn't stick out from the hull much, just as we see on all the period depictions.

 

I suspect that the long guns ingame are at least 1 to 1½ foot too long in size (the girth of the barrel also looks abit thick), and the hull thickness on some ships probably isn't thick enough either.

[Sir. Cunningham]

The St.Pavel & Bucentaure (both with longs) in comparison to each other:

 

I think there can be little doubt as to which one looks more realistic