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Snoopy

Wacky patch idea - no gun stabilization

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Brainwave: Remove modern MBT style gun elevation stabilization.

That is to say, you can alter gun elevation within the current range but it will take a bit of time and has to be locked in afterwards.
You will now have to synchronize firing on the up/down roll.

Thoughts?
 
 
30 year old video to illustrate what we currently have: :P

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Let's try it.

 

We used to have firing on the roll, everyone hated it because that was combined with 0 dispersion. If you aimed at a point 99.9m away and the target was 100m away, your entire broadside would miss by 10cm. All kinds of frustrating.

 

With proper vertical dispersion, firing short would mean missing half your broadside, not every shot. Firing accurately at range would be more forgiving than originally, but at the same time quite satisfying and more rewarding of skill than the current system, where hitting a target at long range is only a matter of ranging shots.

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heavy boats will not suffer much but on the small, 5th and a specially 6-7 the game will be unplayable.

IMO its a bad idea

The current system hit in point the balance between realism and playability.

Edited by Rychu Karas
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heavy boats will not suffer much but on the small, 5th and a specially 6-7 the game will be unplayable.

IMO its a bad idea

The current system hit in point the balance between realism and playability.

 

Besides new players complaining that cutter vs cutter fights are too hard, they will now also take 3 hours to sink eachother :)

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I can see how it might be awful, but it might turn out awesome.. everyone cried wolf when the new turn rates got in, and we still have them.

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i had a some what similar idea a few weeks ago (didn't post it though). We could try out an aiming where the view is lock to the deck(following the ships movment) insted of the mouse curser and with moving the mouse you can move the elevation (that will need to settle after moving). That would also better match the vertical aiming. That with a indicator for the decks plane could work for the aiming.

 

The main reason i didn't post it was that some people might get sea sick if the view follow the ships movment insted of the mouse.

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I would absolutely love it if you could lock your perspective to the deck, at least in open world... during a storm.

But I know that would give 90% of players motion sickness, so probably won't happen. But if it was implemented as a key bind I would love it.

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this issue is tricky for 2 reasons

 

1)
I tried it internally some time ago. It was horrible :) unplayable. Its historical but unplayable.
Basically the only possible distance of fire is 50-100 meters. At bigger distance you just spray and pray (like it was in history)
Lighter ships will be very problematic for rookies (they are ALREADY harder than brigs). It could be possible to start players on a brig instead of a cutter though.

 

2)
Its a Pandora box - it opens another issue of potentially increased scope of several types of water (wind and wave strength). And while we can give varied wind strength to affect speeds, we cannot change the sea water because of complex dynamic weather graphical systems and for anticheating reasons. Water wave type is on the server and we cannot change it real time (only during maintenance).
You will shoot better at low wave (weak winds). If stormy day comes no-one will be able to shoot for 24 hours. Weather is randomized - thus there will be spots of long storms which will cause problems for player shooting. Also a lot of players will eventually request the calmer seas to be switched on all the time, because people like shooting and hitting.

 

But we could try again

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[..]The main reason i didn't post it was that some people might get sea sick if the view follow the ships movment insted of the mouse.

Motion sickness is a good argument, this is why I think instead of the camera moving you would see the aiming bar move (exactly like it is now when you hit a wave and hit gun elevation/depression max).

It's also probably fewer code changes.

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Motion sickness is a good argument, this is why I think instead of the camera moving you would see the aiming bar move (exactly like it is now when you hit a wave and hit gun elevation/depression max).

It's also probably fewer code changes

 

Definitely we are not locking (tight fix) camera to anything moving or shaking. Same will be said about the aiming bar. 

We are not sure current aiming system is perfect but was good enough for 2 years.

 

Your proposal

  • Waves move the ship
  • Ship moves the aiming bar
  • Player moves the aiming bar with the mouse too (Simulating a wooden angle raising or lowering cannon on the carriage).

I suggest you try putting that on paper first first or just visualize the problem in you mind :)

  • For example who moves the bar first? Or which direction the bar moves if ships is going up and player is moving the bar down? 
  • Once you answer that you will see that a good player can probably move the mouse down when the ship is going up. Like Pro players in cs can control the recoil by countering it perfectly with a mouse. If this would be possible then you will ask the question on why have that counter move at all?
  • Then you will see that the system can do it for the player and you will get to what we have now,
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We tried putting in realistic armor and penetration into the game once... remember the brown-storm it brought to the forums.... now multiply it 10 fold and that is what you would get if you removed gun stabilization :) 

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The bar should only be an indicator where the guns aim at the moment. The elevation relative to the deck shall be visible somewhere else. (Like seeing the guns wedged).

The main problem will be that the ships move too fast compared to reload time. I fear players will just close the distance and shoot at point blank range. So no real battles over some distance will take place and everybody will use carronades.

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this issue is tricky for 2 reasons

 

1)

I tried it internally some time ago. It was horrible :) unplayable. Its historical but unplayable.

Basically the only possible distance of fire is 50-100 meters. At bigger distance you just spray and pray (like it was in history)

Lighter ships will be very problematic for rookies (they are ALREADY harder than brigs). It could be possible to start players on a brig instead of a cutter though.

 

But we could try again

 

Historically captains managed to fight even in storms and heavy seas. Somehow  :P

 

Timing of firing a full broadside is probably the key. Let's say normal/light wave condition, target 200m away, the dispersion from firing on the roll should be about 20m (waterline to cap of lower mast). From that you could reverse engineer the time to fire a full broadside using the ships roll rate (degrees per second). Or you could just play around with timing of broadsides until the dispersion at that range feels right.

 

It would be good to have some more vertical dispersion (I know, has been increased several times already), you almost never see semi-accidental dismasting from shots going high which was common in battle, and similarly you almost never see topmasts shot away because when people are out to dismast they only ever shoot at the lower mast. With more vertical dispersion, shooting at hull you'd be hitting lower masts some of the time, shooting at lower masts you could hit the topmasts.

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Your proposal

  • Waves move the ship
  • Ship moves the aiming bar
  • Player moves the aiming bar with the mouse too (Simulating a wooden angle raising or lowering cannon on the carriage)

Reminds me of a video from VBS2 of a sniper trying to hit a target from a hovering helicopter, with the crosshairs bouncing around the screen frantically. Except, of course, you would have a whole regiment of snipers in that chopper, and the bullet you chose to fire would be useless unless everyone else hit as well.

 

It would be pretty awful for Naval Action but pretty great to see in a dedicated-server splinter of the game someday.

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Definitely we are not locking (tight fix) camera to anything moving or shaking. Same will be said about the aiming bar. 

We are not sure current aiming system is perfect but was good enough for 2 years.

 

Your proposal

  • Waves move the ship
  • Ship moves the aiming bar
  • Player moves the aiming bar with the mouse too (Simulating a wooden angle raising or lowering cannon on the carriage).

I suggest you try putting that on paper first first or just visualize the problem in you mind :)

  • For example who moves the bar first? Or which direction the bar moves if ships is going up and player is moving the bar down? 
  • Once you answer that you will see that a good player can probably move the mouse down when the ship is going up. Like Pro players in cs can control the recoil by countering it perfectly with a mouse. If this would be possible then you will ask the question on why have that counter move at all?
  • Then you will see that the system can do it for the player and you will get to what we have now,

 

Move the aim using keyboard in discrete steps - as the hull is rolling, the entire range is available even if the elevation is rather coarse. Many quoins/beds had peg/holes at distances equivalent to (iirc) quarter degrees, but even when this was friction or elevation screw based the changes are not continuous or instant.

Elevation change is then quantised/step from player input (with a relatively slow rate of repeated inputs - same for lateral shifts but even slower to move heavy guns using handspikes (especially when large shifts to/from oblique fire when the breeching would need to be moved on the sides).) and a continuous and variable input from interactions of water and wind. Inhibit firing for a short period after manually adjusting line or elevation, the crew must be clear of the ordnance before it can be discharged.

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LOL...  I already hate when that wave hits in the 10 ms it takes from reading your range shot to pushing the mouse button.  

 

I think I'd lose my shit if the OP was implemented.

 

(Although it would be kinda cool to try it a few times I'm sure...  Pick a wedge and wait for the roll boys!!)

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Definitely we are not locking (tight fix) camera to anything moving or shaking. Same will be said about the aiming bar. 

We are not sure current aiming system is perfect but was good enough for 2 years.

 

Your proposal

  • Waves move the ship
  • Ship moves the aiming bar
  • Player moves the aiming bar with the mouse too (Simulating a wooden angle raising or lowering cannon on the carriage).

I suggest you try putting that on paper first first or just visualize the problem in you mind :)

  • For example who moves the bar first? Or which direction the bar moves if ships is going up and player is moving the bar down? 
  • Once you answer that you will see that a good player can probably move the mouse down when the ship is going up. Like Pro players in cs can control the recoil by countering it perfectly with a mouse. If this would be possible then you will ask the question on why have that counter move at all?
  • Then you will see that the system can do it for the player and you will get to what we have now,

 

Yes pretty much, except that i don't want recoil counter or manual elevation control during firing, like you mentioned.

 

No changes to camera.

 

Could work like this:

 

1) Press key to unlock elevation - red bar moves smoothly like now.

Red bar shows only elevation and is no longer connected to ship movement. It's probably useful to show a scale that shows maximum depression/elevation at this point too, but if you move the mouse quickly even in the current system you can figure out the range of movement fairly quickly without visual clues.

 

2) Press key again to lock it - red bar is now 'stationary', but will move if ship heels/rolls.

Can only shoot when elevation is locked. Lock/unlock may need cooldown to simulate the time it takes to change elevation on real guns and to prevent twitchy gaming of lock/unload cycles (could be added to the reload timer of the guns to minimize confusion why guns cant fire, like switching to doubles)

 

3) unload broadside or single shot - see if you can hit your target

 

4) time the up/downroll so you can replicate the elevation which did produce hits

 

5) frustration :)

 

6) goto 1

 

 

And yes, I can imagine why this could end up terrible gameplay :)

 

If it works, you guys would've replicated the principal difficulty of naval gunnery, however, and perhaps, killed a few other birds with that as well when effective combat ranges come down a lot.

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this issue is tricky for 2 reasons

 

Weather is randomized - thus there will be spots of long storms which will cause problems for player shooting. Also a lot of players will eventually request the calmer seas to be switched on all the time, because people like shooting and hitting.

 

Could you also check the randomness of weather as well? I dont have any evidences with me. But as far as i know, area around pampatar always has stromy weather from 18-20 server time. Everyday, same time.

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On that random snapshot the wave height seems to be consistently around 6-8 feet in the open Atlantic.

 

And swells are fairly consistent. Waves only come in sets of three if you are watching for the few that are slightly taller than the rest.

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I like this idea and thought about similar mechanics. The way we can adjust the aiming right now is too fast. Like Snoopy described. It is like our cannons are mounted on turrets right now. It took time to change elevation and horizontal alignment. That's why you have to "lock" your cannons before you can fire them. 

 

In my mind I also thought about aiming bars for every deck, which could be aimed seperately with different ammo load too, like chain or grape for the weatherdeck aimed at the rigging or at the enemy weatherdeck.

 

Aiming and actually hitting would be far more difficult and could be frustrating, that's right. No more mast and waterline sniping. Maybe this would also enable the devs to implement the higher crew damage per penetrating shot, which was discussed some time ago. A well aimed broadside at the right moment would really make the difference. Isn't that the skill which many want to be the deciding factor?

Mast and rigging damage can also be adjusted then since it is harder to hit them.

Maybe we would see more combat ineffective ships which surrender instead of sinking all the time (hello 1 dura).

The players would also be encouraged to use battle sails more often.

 

The idea is definitely interesting but of course should be well discussed if the players want something like that. I am all for it.

Edited by Cecil Selous

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I think you'd have to separate out mast damage from rigging damage. Yes the mast itself would be harder to hit, but not necessarily the rigging. As someone posted earlier you should see more damage to the higher part of the rig as people shoot high accidentally or deliberately for that matter. You should see royal and top masts coming down from damage to the standing rigging. But yes no more long range sniping.

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Still I do not think that many players will keep a distance above 100m with this option. Battles will be fought at real close distances. There will be no real need to use long guns for this reason.

Ships are simply to fast compared to the reload time.

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