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Yar Matey

The 2 minute timer cannot stand!:

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You began this thread with:

so...

 

The problem is, when I explain the situation, people on this forums dismiss it and then put up a wall by "claiming" that it is some flaw with me.  They refuse to see any other aspect or any other point of view.  Many, but not all, of the people posting here are like this, and it makes it difficult to explain the situation at hand.  But, I will try anyway, because I want the game to succeed.

 

1)  Having closed battles is BAD for a game like this because it prevents players from participating in battles.  Now, I know that battles need some sort of timer before they close so that the whole server doesn't congregate in 1 battle, but 2 minutes stops pretty much everyone in the immediate area from participating except the few players in that immediate area and in open world.  This creates an environment where the attacker almost always has the advantage, and this should not be the case.  The attackers will always chose battles that look as though they are in their favor, and will run from battles that are not in their favor.  With the 2 minute timer and the 2 minute no attack out of port, the attacker has zero risk whatsoever of losing.  Usually the attackers are well organized and looking for prey when this happens.  Since the 2 minute timer has been introduced, I have been in ZERO winning battles from being tagged in open world.  Why?  Because if my side had the advantage, we are the ones initiating the attack, and thus, I have been in ZERO losing battles if my group initiated the attack.   

 

Now that we have established that the attackers always have the advantage and will almost always certainly win, lets look at reason number 2 as to why 2 minute timers are BAD for this game.

 

2)  Since the attackers always have the advantage, they can pretty much go anywhere at any time with very little risk while the people getting attacked will almost always be on the losing end.  This means, they are attacking players right outside of nation capitals, free ports, pretty much anywhere.  This is BAD because solo players, who are almost always new players, who have no experience, cannot build good ships because of crafting level and cannot make any headway in the game economically because as they are sailing around doing their thing, exploring, trading, doing missions they are constantly being attacked and losing their ships.  Telling them they should not have brought out (insert ship here) is not an excuse to dismiss point number 2!  

 

3)  Since attackers can attack people anywhere anytime with impunity and no repercussions for their actions, there are zero places on the map that are safe.  Players that are in port at a nations capital cannot exit port and come help you as you are getting ganked.  This is bad because new players, no matter what ship they are in, have no real way to learn the mechanics of the game, do missions to get their foothold economically, and are always going to be outmatched by gank squads with their exceptional ships, with exceptional upgrades.  Most likely the new guy soloing out in the open world is using an exceptional ship if he is lucky and most likely using basic and common upgrades for his ship.  Telling the new guy "well, you should be rolling with a crew so you do not get ganked" is not an acceptable answer.  The new guy should expect a certain level of security and saftey in what I would call, "the newb zone" where he can do missions, and trade, and just enjoy the game the way he wants to.  

 

This is a recipe for disaster because new players will never be able to get anywhere, and will quit the game.  You guys dont seem to comprehend that.  Now, I am not saying that 5 minute timers were the best solution to the problem, but at least with 5 minute timers, if a 5 man group tried to gank a player in a SOL right outside of a nations capital, they would get stomped by all the players poping out of port and joining the battle.  The 5 minute timer was the only fail safe to protect new players.  Now that is gone, and it is destroying this game.

Edited by Ultravis
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Im trying to understand. If they extend the timer to 5 mins, they will have to extend the battle join timer when popping out of port past 5 mins to avoid the gank squad groups sitting in port hiding & waiting which there used to be (I've been playing since November). I can see you wanting more reinforcements, but unless they are on the OW already, they still cannot help you. If you want to PVE safety, don't do it in front of a capital. Find some other place where few go, my suggestion is a free port in the gulf but as I don't pve much, I may be wrong.

Or, pve safety on the PVE server. There is enough money in PVP or trading that you do not need to do missions for money. I have 2 mil from PVP, yes that's not as much as all the tobacco farmers and such, but it is more than enough.

Be careful. Talking logic to him makes you toxic and a bully.....or in my mind completely honest and helpful and true honest. But what would i know im a big meany.

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The problem is, when I explain the situation, people on this forums dismiss it and then put up a wall by "claiming" that it is some flaw with me. They refuse to see any other aspect or any other point of view. Many, but not all, of the people posting here are like this, and it makes it difficult to explain the situation at hand. But, I will try anyway, because I want the game to succeed.

1) Having closed battles is BAD for a game like this because it prevents players from participating in battles. Now, I know that battles need some sort of timer before they close so that the whole server doesn't congregate in 1 battle, but 2 minutes stops pretty much everyone in the immediate area from participating except the few players in that immediate area and in open world. This creates an environment where the attacker almost always has the advantage, and this should not be the case. The attackers will always chose battles that look as though they are in their favor, and will run from battles that are not in their favor. With the 2 minute timer and the 2 minute no attack out of port, the attacker has zero risk whatsoever of losing. Usually the attackers are well organized and looking for prey when this happens. Since the 2 minute timer has been introduced, I have been in ZERO winning battles from being tagged in open world. Why? Because if my side had the advantage, we are the ones initiating the attack, and thus, I have been in ZERO losing battles if my group initiated the attack.

Now that we have established that the attackers always have the advantage and will almost always certainly win, lets look at reason number 2 as to why 2 minute timers are BAD for this game.

2) Since the attackers always have the advantage, they can pretty much go anywhere at any time with very little risk while the people getting attacked will almost always be on the losing end. This means, they are attacking players right outside of nation capitals, free ports, pretty much anywhere. This is BAD because solo players, who are almost always new players, who have no experience, cannot build good ships because of crafting level and cannot make any headway in the game economically because as they are sailing around doing their thing, exploring, trading, doing missions they are constantly being attacked and losing their ships. Telling them they should not have brought out (insert ship here) is not an excuse to dismiss point number 2!

3) Since attackers can attack people anywhere anytime with impunity and no repercussions for their actions, there are zero places on the map that are safe. Players that are in port at a nations capital cannot exit port and come help you as you are getting ganked. This is bad because new players, no matter what ship they are in, have no real way to learn the mechanics of the game, do missions to get their foothold economically, and are always going to be outmatched by gank squads with their exceptional ships, with exceptional upgrades. Most likely the new guy soloing out in the open world is using an exceptional ship if he is lucky and most likely using basic and common upgrades for his ship. Telling the new guy "well, you should be rolling with a crew so you do not get ganked" is not an acceptable answer. The new guy should expect a certain level of security and saftey in what I would call, "the newb zone" where he can do missions, and trade, and just enjoy the game the way he wants to.

This is a recipe for disaster because new players will never be able to get anywhere, and will quit the game. You guys dont seem to comprehend that. Now, I am not saying that 5 minute timers were the best solution to the problem, but at least with 5 minute timers, if a 5 man group tried to gank a player in a SOL right outside of a nations capital, they would get stomped by all the players poping out of port and joining the battle. The 5 minute timer was the only fail safe to protect new players. Now that is gone, and it is destroying this game.

This is the product of the participation trophy , always right, alway the best little guy, never at fault, super special little hero generation.

Anyone else wonder why games today are are generic clicky copies of each other that let everyone win if they have moms credit card? I dont.

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but at least with 5 minute timers, if a 5 man group tried to gank a player in a SOL right outside of a nations capital, they would get stomped by all the players poping out of port and joining the battle.

Unless the attack was in the green zone or the reinforcements were on the open world already, they still will not be able to join, due to the timer for being able to join battles after exiting ports will also be extended past 5 minutes. As posted already, the join battle timer when popping out of port is set to match the battle open timer to avoid gank squads hiding in ports.

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Thank you... it is a language thing.  I feel if you use the wrong word you can draw a completely different picture than what you are intending. 

 

 

 

Now I have the PERFECT solution for everyone on the timer thing.

 

Get rid of the timers and the open world sailing.  Everyone will sail everywhere in the battle scale, it will take days to actually sail from Jamaica to Charleston US.   If you see someone in this world you can either try and sail away or deal with them.   If you can deal with them before they have friends show up great, if not oh well.

 

Pretty close to how it actually works in REAL LIFE!!!  They don't get a cool battle screen to drop into from the real world to fight a ship.   They have to fight in the world they are actually in.   If the nearest friendly ship is 2 days sail away at best speed... well you better hope you can fight for 2 days and not sink.  

I would actually like they gone this route instead of time compression mode+battle instance we have now. 

When it was debated how they gonna do this time comp+instance was a solution to curb long sailing times. All well and good but we still have very long sailing times as the world is large.

So in trying to fix one problem they made two problems, still long sailing and battle instance RoE that everybody has different opinion of.

 

Why not just downsize OW to size that will match sailing time in OW now but now to sailing mode like in battle instance. All problems solved i guess.. 

No battle timers, no exit timers, no battle result screen waiting, no enemy vanishing up in air if you do not hit it with cannon ball in under 60/120 secs... 

Many here stated about breaking immersion, well for me everything about this battle instance breaks immersion nor is in any way, shape or form realistic or even maybe needed. 

 

We could still have instanced combat for missions as to enable player to have a chance to do it in peace and not spawning large amount of ships in the world that could interfere with 

other players passing by.

 

Only issue i can see in this proposition is that it will be harder for smaller nations to survive as they would not be able to compartmentalize and break big fleets into few 

smaller easily manageable ones getting ROFLstomped in the process by nation with  larger player base. But then again i can see a rough time coming to 

lesser nations as the next conquest patch will make it harder for them to take ports as they need to create conditions for capture. No more false flagging and keep enemy

guessing where the attack will land..  

Edited by Rabid_Infidel

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when they first put land in the battle instances, i tried sailing from the tip of the island at Port Royal to Carlisle in a battle instance. making 12 something knots in a Surprise it took almost an hour.

 

real is ok  but that is a little too long for a game

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Borch, you have a point regarding some of the less gallant exchanges of opinion BUT

 

the timers have been tested and test-exploited to exhaustion. The 2 minute timer is indeed, as yet the best timer compromise to players that do not sit at port. End of.

 

No one is dismissing new Rules of Engagement and we are all willing to test them. Anything except extended timers because, let me turn on caps, IT HAS BEEN TESTED, and it doesn't work as intended. The exploits are massive even if anyone asking for them cannot see them.

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Borch, you have a point regarding some fo the less gallant exchanges of opinion BUT

 

the timers have been tested and test-exploited to exhaustion. The 2 minute timer is indeed, as yet the best timer compromise to players that do not sit at port. End of.

 

No one is dismissing new Rules of Engagement and we are all willing to test them. Anything except extended timers because, let me turn on caps, IT HAS BEEN TESTED, and it doesn't work as intended. The exploits are massive even if anyone asking for them cannot see them.

 

Dont ruin it Hethwill... 

I was kind of looking forward to gathering 25 man Gank fleets and having 5 of them scout in Rattlers far away from the fleet. Then when rattlers spot something they tag whatever it is and the rest of the fleet appears in the battle after 4 minutes. 

Just like last time we tested the longer timers. Twas epic.

 

Okay okay, sarcasm off. 

I luv you Hethwill and your 100% right. It has been tested and 2 minute timers is the best thing that have happened to the ROE since we first started testing Open World. I'm very excited about the new 2 Circle thing but i honestly don't see the big difference between 2 minute timers and 2 Circle thing. 

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I want the big circles. Even it comes down to one good battle per evening.

 

Your snake brigs idea is nice. Can't count the times we've just fooled around with the schooners out of showcasing how miserable the Socialize perk was *shrugs*

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Dont ruin it Hethwill...

I was kind of looking forward to gathering 25 man Gank fleets and having 5 of them scout in Rattlers far away from the fleet. Then when rattlers spot something they tag whatever it is and the rest of the fleet appears in the battle after 4 minutes.

Just like last time we tested the longer timers. Twas epic.

Okay okay, sarcasm off.

I luv you Hethwill and your 100% right. It has been tested and 2 minute timers is the best thing that have happened to the ROE since we first started testing Open World. I'm very excited about the new 2 Circle thing but i honestly don't see the big difference between 2 minute timers and 2 Circle thing.

Current system rewards joining late. Better to be out of the circle and join at 1:99 than to be in the circle at battle creation. Current SoP is for fast ship with low combat potential to tag enemy close as possible, all others intentionally stay out of initial battle (or are simply slow and lagging behind), then join at inner edge of circle so that they warp in to the position of the fast tagging ship right on top of the enemy.

It is really quite stupid, but it is a testament to how bad previous ROE has been that the current system is by far the best yet.

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I always enjoy being called "toxic" by someone who post multiple copies of the same thread just to stir the pot, calls people "fools" that disagree with him and constantly trumpets the "death of the game"...  People have pointed out numerous times the fallacies in your argument.  However, you choose to be offended instead of addressing the facts. Again, you should never feel "safe" in this game no matter where you are.  That is a feature.  Not a bug.

 

But by all means, please continue.  

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The engagement rules are being changed from what i heard last. They are also making a starter zone for new players witch will limit high grade ganking of newbies to the game, until they grasp the concept of sailing. Other than that although i do believe Capitals should be safer than other ports, getting ganked outside one is not entirely an issue of the battle entry timer but a combination of: ships that costs less than toilet paper, which leads to no fear of loosing them, the existence of free-ports that cant be captured, yet for some reason allow enemy nations to harbor full assault fleets while claiming neutrality, NPC fleets being a decoration instead of actual patrols. Theres a lot of other things they could do to make pvp focus on the front-lines of waring nations.   

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It's a game. 100% realism would be terribly boring. 

 

Try to imagine how to make a good, fun game out if This. I agree with ultravis on this one. 2. Min is boring compared to the other timers.

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It's a game. 100% realism would be terribly boring. 

 

Try to imagine how to make a good, fun game out if This. I agree with ultravis on this one. 2. Min is boring compared to the other timers.

 

You didn't really read all the arguments against longer timers, did you? Well, if not, please scroll up and practise your comprehensive reading skills :)

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2)  Since the attackers always have the advantage, they can pretty much go anywhere at any time..

You're partially right on this point, if I understand you correctly. Short timers does mean that attackers can single out targets they can beat. As opposed to start a battle against a lone ship that gets reinforced from far, far away after 5 or 10 or 30 minutes.

Both predator and prey have the same ability to look at the horizon and move to attack or escape, so one party doesn't have an advantage over the other by default. If the case in question is a big ship being hunted by several smaller the advantage lies solely with the attacker.

What happened with long timers is that the (potential and entirely unmeasurable) advantage lies with the defender and late joining reinforcements. Always. Short timers are more fair than long ones.

Long timers led to extremely timid gameplay. Noone wanted to be the idiot who took initiative. People tagged and ran and sat in port vicinity trying to guess how many enemies were hiding in this or the next port. With 10 min+ timers people had time to TP back to capital, tp to outpost and help a friend in an instance. We could sail from Gustavia to Plymouth and still be able to join.

It was terrible PVP the few times a real fight actually happened.

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Not saying you are not trying to play pvp im saying its not for you obviously. I play pvp one 1 server since day 1 of ow where there was very little " protection " for me and so have thousands of others. We survived we made money we do fine.

You have problems on both servers. The problem is you are not good at this kind of pvp and you either need to start learning from someone or go to pve because it seems you are always at odds with all pvp unless its a battle of your making.

How you can find enemies everywhere to fight and harrass you and i have to sail around the world just to find one poor guy is unexplainable. Just start asking people to help you learn to pvp.

Also why are you forced to do pve ? You mean for gold ? Just sit near a port and attack ai ships. Zero danger.

Doomed, get off the pedastal. Stop sicking up to the devs. Accept this game has problems. Stop telling people they arent PvP players.

I have bare minimum ships for RvR. I've been working on rebuilding my PvP stocks, however, as Ultravis has said, I am forced to do PvE to support PvP.

I dont like doing 200xp orders to get gold, but i need gold to craft, and the fleet orders are the best way to make that money fastest. Trading will take up all my playtime, if I try to do that, and with so little valid PvP opportunities, even if I wanted to try to live off of the tiny amounts of cash you get from PvP, I wouldnt be able to.

The Gankers have this same problem, but instead of trying to work around it or address the issue in the forums, they

Play farmville around freeports and capitals. They farm their ships so they dont have to build them, because the 2 minute timer makes it easy. Then they come on here and support it because without it theyd be back to having to figure out how to fight again

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Ask yourself how to make fun gameplay with a lot of battles. That meaning when a player has like 1-2 hours of gaming time at night...

 

Now it is not like that. And it is killing this game. 

 

I have been ganked by 25 players as a lonely cpt. 2 min timer sucks.

 

We need to have battle zones or similar. The PB system us too heavy for this small player base. Sry to say. Only TS fanatics have an option to join in big battles. And this is not in everyone's taste. 

Edited by fox2run
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No one that wasn't in sight of a battle should be able to join one anyway....  The 2 min timer at least partially simulates the fact that there was not instance coms world wide.. and when you got in trouble you were usually on your own..... 

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No one that wasn't in sight of a battle should be able to join one anyway....  The 2 min timer at least partially simulates the fact that there was not instance coms world wide.. and when you got in trouble you were usually on your own..... 

 

The reality is boring. That's why you have computergames. 2 min is hostile to: longer, bigger battles. Reinforcements "help me", safe home waters, no-TS players that likes some easy access to battles.

 

Maybe it's good for TS folks or simulator freaks.

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2 min is hostile to: longer, bigger battles. Reinforcements "help me", safe home waters, no-TS players that likes some easy access to battles.

I agree! This is why I want short timers.

 

Maybe it's good for TS folks or simulator freaks.

In my head it's good for solo OW hunters.
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Ask yourself how to make fun gameplay with a lot of battles. That meaning when a player has like 1-2 hours of gaming time at night...

 

Now it is not like that. And it is killing this game. 

 

I have been ganked by 25 players as a lonely cpt. 2 min timer sucks.

 

We need to have battle zones or similar. The PB system us too heavy for this small player base. Sry to say. Only TS fanatics have an option to join in big battles. And this is not in everyone's taste. 

 

I completely disagree. I've dropped from playing 5-6 hours a day in winter/spring to 1-2 hours every couple days over the summer to now. I honestly got bored of the port battle scene, as it was either empty ports or a onesided stomp one way or the other (once population dropped, advantage started going to who had the most people join over the 40 minute join timer). I had a handful of fun battles reaching the ports, but honestly 1v1/2v2 frigate actions have been far more fulfilling combat for me. They are easy to find, easy to start, and I don't have to deal with every ship in the British navy dropping in to punish the evil lone raider.

 

Seeing as we already have large combat in the form of port battles, port battle screening, and large battle rooms assuming you can get a crowd together, I see no reason to alter OW ROE to fit what YOU believe the game should be entirely about. To do so flies in the face of what you and the rest of these 5 minute timer campaigners, what a <air quotes, sarcasm etc.> "majority" want and anything else is killing the game. </air quotes, sarcasm etc.>

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Those that want 5 min timers, you do realize entering battle timers after exiting port will also be adjusted so that unless you are already on the OW you still will not be able to enter the battle?

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Those that want 5 min timers, you do realize entering battle timers after exiting port will also be adjusted so that unless you are already on the OW you still will not be able to enter the battle?

 

Why?? 

 

Why all these rules to PREVENT battles? Don't get it. Sry.

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