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Lars Kjaer

Battle Screen mechanic exploit

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So risking life and limb is equal to risking pixels?

I personally find this a very big difference.

 

Yes you would, since you love to disagree and argue just for the sake of it.  But 4 on 1 is unfair, that's the point.  Admin has specifically said in this thread, well, here it is, read it again:

 

 

no

you get some options to escape a revenge fleet, which would not be able to circle the battle area in real life.

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In real life the attacking ship would have to send a message boat back to the nearest port to get more ships dispatched to his area.  And HOPE they are fast enough to catch the two of them before he lost sight of his prey.  

 

This was nearly impossible to do and highly impractical.

Again not realistic nor true.. I mean ffs have any of u ever heard even a 6 pdr go off??! (Let alone a 32 pdr) It's not exactly subtle and to shoot a whole broadside right outside of a harbor and expect NO ONE to hear it?? That's just ridiculous.. The argument from skully that the timecompression prevents any approximation to rl simulation can be somewhat accepted, yet to state that sailing ships can move from point A to an unknown point B in a matter of mins rt is not anywhere near an approximation of the conditions met at sea, again these ships are powered by the wind and even 13 kn is not exactly fast.. This can easily be corrected by prolonging the time ppl can join battles and the 10 mins brs autokick ensures ppl can't log off to avoid pursuit.. I wouldn't mind a random spawn site within the quadrant the battle took place though, that way ppl can't just base camp..

The post from wraith is just a whiner trying to keep things as is so he can exploit a flawed game mechanic.. Atm everyone can exploit this flaw and as such I'm not whining I'm not even the one who lost a trader, but I do object to the complete disregard of how things worked in the age of sails.. If devs wanna keep ingame a cloaking device by all means, but then don't try to pass this game of as a sailing ship game 'cause then I want lasers, fusioncores and the ability to strangle someone with the force..

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Yes you would, since you love to disagree and argue just for the sake of it.  But 4 on 1 is unfair, that's the point.  Admin has specifically said in this thread, well, here it is, read it again:

I can quote the words of admin very well, so lets quote properly.

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/13106-patch-97-land-sighted/?p=239607

That means world collide

In our world most pvp players disagree with this statement. 2 min timers made pvp better especially for smaller groups.

Its hard to find middle ground here. Our position is and was always this: ganking has to be reduced by design.

So why do we see worlds collide?

Because we want to live in a world of conflict, a world of war, a world of the harsh 18th century.

And that brings out the worst in us, gluttony, greed, sloth, wrath, envy and pride. (Given the chance we would add lust as well. ;))

Which is in direct opposition to the values we should hold true, justice, equality, conformity, symmetry and fairness.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aequitas

And secretly we love this. We don't want to be judged by Mrs J or our loved ones. For they will call shame upon us.

(Lets not tell how we tied you (sic: Jeheil) up in battle during date night, she might disqualify me. ;))

Instead we chuckle and quickly set sail again.

Do we want to play a game of conflict and strive or a game of care-bear porn?

Instead conflict gets nerfed continuously. (Leading apparently to carebear porn. :))

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/15676-x-files-the-pirate-corruption/?p=297126

Get of your lazy asses! Stop whining about too little loot or historical accuracy! And fight! Do not surrender!

If you don't like them, sink their ships!

Get the (money) sinks gurgling in this awesome Naval Combat Simulator!

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Well, I'm guilty of the greed part.  I play the game to accumulate wealth in a diversion from RL.  Looks like we finally found something to agree upon! :lol:

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BRS - or battle result screen - camping/hiding - is currently a feature. It has been like this since first launch of the OW.

 

There are plans/ideas to rework BRS adding sufficient invisibility on exit and force captains out of BRS into the sea after a certain time or give them an option (during that time) to move to a nearest port.

O fak. this is game killer for me personally. 

 

I cant believe this is a feature.   It is a load of bolox.

 

 

A snap. i read  'there are no plans'      and panicked.   

 

Apologies to the devs.  There is a hope. :)

Edited by Benass

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I log off in battle screen all the time. I usually end up in these long, drawn out battles, and end up having to go to bed. Sounds like OP tried to gank someone, failed, and waited around for them to pop back into OW only to realize their target logged in the battle screen.

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One thing at least. If players logout in Battlescreen, let players in Open World know it, don't waste their time.

 

Fair enough. But how ? Suggest an appropriate mechanic that doesn't include alien beacon devices nor fireworks IMO. Also, what if half the players logoff and the other half doesn't ?

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In real life, there would not even be a revenge gank fleet.  They would not even know about the battle if they were not there.  So if asked from me, they are allowed to wait as many hours as they want.

 

Think about it like this.  If you do not arrive to the battle in 2 minutes, you were just too far to participate.  Kinda the time is changed from fast OW time to battle time.  All that happens in 90 minutes in battle, lasts only 2 minutes in OW.

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...The argument from skully that the timecompression prevents any approximation to rl simulation can be somewhat accepted...

Somewhat?

Do you want the ability to join after, say, three minutes and get the magic ability to travel almost 4 hours back in time (instance time)?

Was there something in what Skully and Prater et al said that was unclear or you disagree with?

We fought longs and hard against the time and space defying mechanic that is long join timers. Now that we have the closest approximation or best compromise between realism and playability, I'm a bit puzzled that you're actually using the term "flawed".

If you don't want time and space to matter that's fair enough, but you can't say "10 minute timers" and "realism" in the same sentence... logic compells you.

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I look at it from a very high conceptual level.

post-11395-0-33928600-1473341982_thumb.jpg

We have a Region that is (supposedly) continuously being filled with Fleets. (Assuming we have a 10K MMO ;))

The Fleets, from both sides, come in at the speed of modern jets.

the situation remains that any sailing ship which enters battle is subject to (or enjoys) enemies/friends traveling to that location at the relative speed of modern jet fighters (or Millennium Falcon speeds in the case of folks teleporting from elsewhere).

If either Fleet does a Tag, the two opposing Fleets get "trapped" in a Battle Instance (/time bubble).

As the battle ends, any remaining ships have the option to rejoin the Region.

Meanwhile the aforementioned continuous supply of Fleets is happening.

What is unfair in this setup? How can it be exploited?

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I still like the idea which the admins suggested in another thread with the very large tagging circle where everybody (or on choice for the ones further out) joins the instance and thus no join timer at all.

 

 

 

One of the problems can be solved i think

thanks for the suggestions - you helped me to come up with this idea

 

Right now there is 1 circle.if the target is in the circle you can attack it. The rest join as support. 

 

What can be done is this

There could be 2 circles.

  1. attack circle allowing you to attack the enemy (should be smaller than the current one) - solving counter tag - as both ships have to be closer to each other. 
  2. very large pull circle (size of 1 mins of sailing). Pulling everyone into the battle where they were on the map (forcing fleets to sail with some organization)

 

After this battle closes immediately. 

 

Benefits

  • counter tag issue - solved.
  • Joining at wrong places - solved.
  • Land problems - solved.
  • Battle screen camping - solved. 
  • It will look natural (with no strange circles to join)
  • can join cannot join can be abandoned as useless. (all visible/vulnerable ships will be pulled) 

Drawbacks

  • no support possible.
  • If you are in port or outside of that large pull circle thats it - no battle for you. Workaround - sail within 1 mins of sailing to each other
  • the main issue is this - If there are more than 50 ships in the area - who do we pull? Possible to solve with some algorithm. But if there are 100 ships in the area there will be some funny situations.
  • Passers by will be pulled too. But if they are far they will exit on exit timers. 
  • Solo ships attacks will be much harder (due to antigriefing) because the circle is bigger (but maybe it can be tied to historical consideration that a solo ship won't usually attack an enemy if a large enemy force is within 1 min sailing away from you)

 

 

I would make the pulling circle even larger maybe 2 - 3 min of sailing with the option to join or not for the ships which are far away. At Jamaice this would be from KPR to almost Morant if the wind is in your favor.

 

This will pull almost everyone in sight into the battle at their current position. Mostly BS camping is seen as a problem when it happens in front of capitals where it is frustrating for lone players to be ganked without getting help from players who eaher don't care or can't reach it in time although they saw the tag happening. The second problem ist that everyone wants revenge and don't get it and I think that is the main one.

With the suggested idea by the admins the ganks can and will still happen but due to the havier traffic in the area it is more risky because more ships will be pulled in. In lower populated areas neither system will help against a gank.

 

This idea won't prevent BS camping but for me it wouldn't be much of an issue anymore and I would be fine with the possibility to either allow a log out or a tp to the nearest friendly port or even joing the OW far away from the initial tag. Many agree that timewise and regarding the difference between OW and instance, the battle would have finished long ago when you arrive 10 min after it started in OW. So realistically there would be nothing to see, please move on Sir!

 

At least I think it is worth a try.

Edited by Cecil Selous
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1. I very much would like to see the big pull circle. Basically a snapshot of roughly a Region.

2. http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/15737-rules-of-engagement-feedback/?p=295914

3. http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/15737-rules-of-engagement-feedback/?p=303911:(

Number 3 has now come to pass as we can see in the latest Tribunal.

I hope admin can fix it up.

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Just to stay on topic.

The exploit is that it turns ppl invisible.. This can, and are used to make entire fleets appear out of thin air.. 1 ship lies as bait and 1 player merrily tags in order to get a PvP, but now a fleet of 24 gankers jump out of hiding in brs and now in effect we have a situation where ppl either has a cloaking device or a wizard. 'cause ships are magically appearing. A clear exploit.

The problem I have with the timers is 2 fold. 1 they are unrealistic. In the age of sails ANY ship could at ANY time pass a battle and had to decide wether to join in or sneak by. To maintain a 2 min counter is preventing any kind of counter-ganking and though I can understand the gankers cowardly and perpetual fear of a countergank it is just that.. A cowardly excuse for avoiding PvP. Irl there wasn't revenge fleets - 'cause ppl didn't think in those terms. But there WAS responses to battles taking place right outside a harbor, again 6 pdr are not exactly subtle and if u shoot off a cannon it can be heard over quite a long distance..

I don't believe that any1 ever came to a 'compromise' regarding battle timers and to suggest it is moronic since I doubt the majority of the server populations finds the 2 min lockout acceptable (do we have a poll to the opposite?). I accept the point that the battle instances are 'time bubbles' but do not accept the underlying presumption that the battle instances is anything resembling realtime, a cannon takes longer than 30 sec to load and if the battle instance was rt it would take A LOT longer to tack just to bring an example. And again ships didn't sail very fast and 90 mins didn't bring u very far from the vantage point - therefore any port within hearing distance of a battle could and did send out help.. I'm a historian and I've allways found pirates facinating but I have NEVER read a source describing a battle between pirates and a trader right outside Havana.. Why not I wonder??..... Because fucking cloaking devises doesn't exist in anything but the realm of SCI-FI and the damn pirates couldn't hide from the ports response..

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Given that OW moves 75x faster than a Battle Instance, a Battle that lasts 90 minutes real time is 72 seconds OW time.

Nevertheless we allow players to travel back in time for 120 seconds.

That same time of 120 seconds, given a speed of roughly 11 knots, represents 40 kilometers of travel. I think that covers hearing distance pretty well.

So by the time anything arrives after 120 seconds the battle is over. Similar to any turn based wargame, your turn is done.

The actual engagement hasn't been played out yet though, that is done in real time. Now we do not want to spend 8 hours in a battle for some reason, so the mechanics are simplified to speed resolution up.

At the end of the battle we simply move all remaining ships forward in time to the present OW at the location they started. Simply to prevent abusing sailing through battle instances.

The current mechanic has no true exploits. If you control the waters, you are safe. If not, you lose.

Hence the ganking guide, which we can easily update for anything that changes this balance and to ensure everybody is equally aware.

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/15575-the-definitive-battle-screen-ganking-guide/

What strikes me as funny is that nobody thinks beyond the ganking guide or revenge fleet.

Both a ganking trap and a revenge fleet are a waste of assets. You have committed them to an action and no longer hold initiative.

You are counting on that something might show up, instead of asserting that the enemy has committed his assets and is in fact there.

Why do you think we have low cost scouts running around?

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/14676-pvp1-june-the-british-honduras-campaign-pirate-perspective/

Or bring them during a mission and also call auxiliaries when needed?

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/15623-pvp1-august-3rd-the-french-émissaire/

To know what has been committed against us. To take the initiative and dictate terms of battle.

Instead everyone just keeps thinking and whining about his poor individual ship.

I think the next new officer perk should be "Organize" or "Strategy", because "Social" wasn't enough.

To give everyone insight into our planning: http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/14649-courtesysportsmanship-after-pbs/?p=271764

It has all the elements you speak of, a lost port battle, a race to a freeport and finally bad judgement on our part.

No mechanics were hurt during the making of that story. :P

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There is no RT in the game - not in OW nor in battle instance.. Therefore any discussion on timetravel really comes down to a discussion on game mechanics and I don't consider the current state of timers to be anything but flawed. The current timers favors the ganking squad and more or less eliminates any real response from the parties being ganked. This is in my opinion counter to the notion of PvPing as it really only creates gankings where one player quickly surrenders to a vastly superior force. Anyone that doesn't see a problem with effectively removing all options available to respond to gankings is not really into the PvPing but would rather be allowed to gank someone with impunity and that has nothing to do with playing against others testing ones skills. It really removes one of my favorite considerations when we had open timers (and reintroduced with the social perk) - Whenever I was hunting up near Cabo Canaveral I allways had to consider my victims opportunity for responding to an attack - and sometimes the tables would be turned forcing me to consider my options, retreat? press the attack? defensive line? or sometimes taking one for the team allowing my mates to escape.. Now I can do it without any regard to opposing actions and the tables in battle allways remains in my favor - I don't gank unless I know for certain that the outcome ends in my favor..

 

And to be blunt Skully - you're right, assets deployed are assets no more. But.. Regardless of assets deployed it still makes ships invisible.. Something I have more than just a hard time to accept - It defies all common sense that a wooden ship can disappear into thin air. There really is no such thing as cloaking devices in the age of sails and if ppl really want them, by all means go play star trek or whatever.. But this game sells itself on the notion of being a game set in the age of sails and that excludes any and all sorts of cloaking devises... One solution could be to simply let the crossed swords that signify a battle and the BR stay put instead of them disappearing - easy and doable..

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I'm a historian and I've allways found pirates facinating but I have NEVER read a source describing a battle between pirates and a trader right outside Havana.. Why not I wonder??..... Because fucking cloaking devises doesn't exist in anything but the realm of SCI-FI and the damn pirates couldn't hide from the ports response..

 

I find this amusing because John Paul Jones' famous quote was uttered while attacking a British convoy plus escort so close to the British coast that people on shore could see and hear the gunfire. Yet despite the battle lasting for hours and the American ships staying put overnight attempting  to save the Bonhomme Richard, the British ships still didn't manage to catch the "gankers". Maybe they would have accomplished it with a warp drive allowing them to sail 75x faster to the scene of the battle.

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@Bearwall Out of curiosity, how do you explain to yourself that ships are sailing in towards a battle at 1500 km/h?

Edited by Skully
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Try to stay on topic - How does u explain ships vanishing into thin air? - Where is the logic behind that?

 

It was explained above by Skully.

 

Travel speed in the open world is far higher than travel time in a battle instance.  A 5 minute timer allows ships that are hundreds of miles away to come to, and participate in the battle.  If you dropped those same ships in the battle in the same spot they were in when the battle started, minus distance traveled at battle speeds instead of OW speeds, they wouldn't even be able to see the participants, let alone reach the battle originators before it was all said and done - hence the 2min timer.

 

2 minutes is basically visible range of the battle.  2 minutes allows both attacker and defender to have an immediate and clear idea of who can actually participate in the battle.

 

Timers used to be 10 minutes.  You could get attacked, yell for help over the magical TS, and have half your clan show up to help.  That's not the flavor of the period being represented at all, where a Captain had the resources that were in his immediate vicinity to use against the enemy.  As mentioned above with John Paul Jones, half of the ships in Portsmouth didn't show up to his battle because they could travel at high speeds outside of the bubble he was in - the ships he attacked only had the resources immediately available to them to mount a defense.

 

That said, we're WAY off topic.  Please do a search for battle timers.  This post is about sitting in a battle screen to avoid the enemies outside of your battle (which should never have been there in the first place).

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Seen as I started the post let me remind ppl that what I consider an exploit is two fold:

1: (and most importantly) using brs as a magical cloaking device enabling ambushes that would never be possible irl.. Again as stated a few times before, cloaking devices does not exist today and most definitely didn't exist in the late 18th century. This results in a mechanic that allows larger nations to effectively besiege smaller nations into extinction 'cause u can never know if the ship u see is the only one there or actually one out of 25.

2: the battle timers work on an apparent presumption that OW are compressed 75x (no argument there) and that battle instance is somehow rt.. That presumption is false considering the fact that just maneuvering the ship would be far more time consuming and that battles should then take from 8 to 18 hours (more often than not parties had to disengage at the outset of nightfall). Therefore any discussion based on the presumption of time is going to be moot. In this case it comes down to realism as approximations and to game mechanics. The first part, realism, I don't contest that u can find evidence of battles taken place in front of a port where no warships has been moored and therefore the port cannot I.e. help one of the battle participants, I do however maintain that it was the exceptions from the norms and in the case that prompted the original post I and several others had warships lying in port but due to lockout timers were unable to help. The second part, mechanics, is flawed as it favors only the attacking part who can first attack without any real concern for counterattack and then hide in bs for an indefinate amount of time.

When u guys defend the current mechanic then pls take both counts of criticism into consideration. I disregard the objections based purely on time mechanics as it is clear (or should be to evey1) that there is no such thing as 'real time' in this game.

Edited by Bearwall

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http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/6227-battle-join-timers/

 

I'll just leave this here. (Thanks Prater!)

 

 

Edit: 
As long as "revenge fleets" can "camp" outside your battle and give you absolutely no chance of escape, the "logging off in result screen should stay. 

 

Worth keeping in mind when you ask for removal of the option to sit in battle result screen/log off, is also that by removing that option you also hinder alot of casual players in PvP'ing. 

Some people have only 2 hours to play per session. They spend maybe 20-30 minutes sailing to territory with enemies. Then another 10 to find a PvP battle. Then that battle can take up to 90 minutes. 
Meanwhile revenge fleet is sitting outside waiting for him to exit battle. But he has to take care of real life stuff so he logs off. 

 

If he did not have that option then he would loose a ship every time he went to PvP... (Doesn't sound like much fun for a "casual" player who likes PvP does it?).

 

And btw, it's not just "gankers" that hide in Battle Result Screen. It's also actual PvP'ers that go out and look for good fights but aren't interested in 4v20's etc. :)

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2: the battle timers work on an apparent presumption that OW are compressed 75x (no argument there) and that battle instance is somehow rt.. That presumption is false considering the fact that just maneuvering the ship would be far more time consuming and that battles should then take from 8 to 18 hours (more often than not parties had to disengage at the outset of nightfall). Therefore any discussion based on the presumption of time is going to be moot. In this case it comes down to realism as approximations and to game mechanics. The first part, realism, I don't contest that u can find evidence of battles taken place in front of a port where no warships has been moored and therefore the port cannot I.e. help one of the battle participants, I do however maintain that it was the exceptions from the norms and in the case that prompted the original post I and several others had warships lying in port but due to lockout timers were unable to help. The second part, mechanics, is flawed as it favors only the attacking part who can first attack without any real concern for counterattack and then hide in bs for an indefinate amount of time.

When u guys defend the current mechanic then pls take both counts of criticism into consideration. I disregard the objections based purely on time mechanics as it is clear (or should be to evey1) that there is no such thing as 'real time' in this game.

Your thesis is based on having a realistic battle of, say, 12 hours represented in 90 minutes.

Thus the battle should remain open for 10 minutes real time.

That is true for everything but speed. In battle speed in roughly 20 km/h (11 knots). So distances are realistic.

Having the ability to appear within those 10 minutes at the battle site, means having the ability to sail in at 1500 km/h and warp back in time.

So the choice is: cloaking device or warp engine + time travel.

Since the base of your choice is "realism", I have just debunked your thesis.

My choice is based on game-play (first) and naval(/military) strategy (second).

Open World represents a very unique queuing system. You sail into a Region and you might encounter enemies, either coming in directly or from Battle Screen.

You have the option to wait for enemies, or sail to another Region. I agree that it could use better means at the end of a battle.

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/15662-battle-screen-markers-timeouts-patch-proposal/

From a naval strategy perspective, if you wait in Region, you are the subject of a Fleet-in-being.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fleet_in_being

You continuously deploy assets for an enemy that may or may not appear. The enemy does not seek control(/command) of the sea, or else he would have engaged.

Basically the enemy ensures your assets are tied up, while they conduct other operations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Command_of_the_sea#Asymmetric_countermeasures

To which I can only say, scout, scout and scout. :)

(We needs lots of small scout fleets on the waters. :P:ph34r: )

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