The 1st Rate dilemma

[Rebel Witch]

So in the last patch the cost for building a 1st rate just went up by 1000 indian tea or iberian meats. This is yet another attempt by devs to increase the cost of 1st rates to get people to use "other ships" when the most power matters.

 

This tweaking of cost for 1st rates will never solve the problem they intend to fix because 1. Players who want to win are going to game hard to bring the best ship they can 2. Power creep as the game progresses, more and more players become filthy rich, clans work together and you will still only see 1st rates.

 

The only way to fix this issue of wanting a better mix of ships in port battles is to make port battles a lobby organized event.

 

Lobby Organized event is similar to how it was in POTBS. Where players queue up to join the battle event. Doing it this way also solves two problems. Mixes the size of ships and balances battles better.

 

Since the change in regional conflict mechanic is already going to encourage players to sail around areas and PVP. Why not have the main event (port battle) be a Queue event, this way more people can participate as well.

 

By having port battles become Queue events, the devs can put limits to what ships and how many can join for each tier battle. So for a regional capital there could be a limit of 5 1st rates, 10 2nd rates and the rest 3rd rate or below. This solves the problem of having too many 1st rates. By having the Queue system you can jump in a ship at whatever port you are at, queue up to join the battle and pick a secondary or tertiary ship you can use if the max number of 1st rates is already reached. It could be first come first serve basis.

 

You can do the same thing in deep water battles too. Where lets say the max number of 4th rates per side is 10. Then the rest of the ships must be 5th rate and lower.

 

I know this is a huge change recommended and hard core pvp'rs who like the realistic having to sail to a port to defend or attack wont like this. I understand. But at the end of the day its a game and i think the devs are struggling to find ways to limit players bringing so many 1st rates to battles. So instead of the constant upping the cost, maybe its time to find alternative solutions to the game play . this is just for port battles mind you.

 

have fun out there.

[huliotkd]

if you want to reduce numbers of 1st rate, you must reintroduce 1 duration ships patch.

 

actually if i have 1 OP i can fill it with 5 constitution (maybe gray), but they are actually 20 (5 x 4 dur)... and i can buy from port maybe other 5-6 basic connie (20-24 new ones)...

so if i have 8 op i will have 160 connie, with 60-80 new ones in ports...so each connie i craft, gives me 5 connie...with same amount of resources.  too easy building personal fleet of infinite ships...

 

reintroduce 1 dur ships, so 8 op=40 ships only , more resourse consumption, fewer resources for 1st rates...also you can buy only 5-6 new gray ships in ports, so you have to learn how to fight really good in pvp or you will finish your ships before you are able to replace them; losing 1 ships means not only high cost of materials, but also LH you must spend to replace each connie you lose while are trying to collect them to build 1 1st rate...so delayed 1st rate building....

[Ned Loe]

just go cap trader snows, they drop about 50 a pop.

[Yar Matey]

I disagree, not only should first rates be way more expensive material wise, they should also be very expensive to crew and to repair if damaged.

 

3rd rates should be significantly cheaper to build, crew, and repair.  

 

1st rates should cost more to repair and re-stock with crew than you will ever receive in a battle, 2nd rates should barley break even, and 3rd rates should be much cheaper to crew and repair such that you will almost gain money by sailing 3rd rates.

 

I also think that first rates should have a admiral slot for an officer that gives buffs to nearby ships that are not first rates, and 2nd rates get 1/2 the buff that a 3rd rate would get.  This way we see more battles with 1 or 2 first rates and lots of 3rd rates.

Edited September 2, 2016 by Ultravis

[DeRuyter]

I think the BR limit ideas in the other PB threads are similar to yours. Frankly if they could code in varying port depths and ship draft that would take care of it. Can't sail a 1st rate right up to a fort on shore then - so you need motor brigs and smaller ships, etc. 

 

Treating a PB like a mission has drawbacks - like no OW strategy, limiting RvR. It would also limit the use of TS to organize the PB. The new mechanics will emphasize collective operations on the OW so there is that as well. 

[Tonnerre de Brest]

So in the last patch the cost for building a 1st rate just went up by 1000 indian tea or iberian meats. This is yet another attempt by devs to increase the cost of 1st rates to get people to use "other ships" when the most power matters.

 

This tweaking of cost for 1st rates will never solve the problem they intend to fix because 1. Players who want to win are going to game hard to bring the best ship they can 2. Power creep as the game progresses, more and more players become filthy rich, clans work together and you will still only see 1st rates.

 

The only way to fix this issue of wanting a better mix of ships in port battles is to make port battles a lobby organized event.

 

Lobby Organized event is similar to how it was in POTBS. Where players queue up to join the battle event. Doing it this way also solves two problems. Mixes the size of ships and balances battles better.

 

Since the change in regional conflict mechanic is already going to encourage players to sail around areas and PVP. Why not have the main event (port battle) be a Queue event, this way more people can participate as well.

 

By having port battles become Queue events, the devs can put limits to what ships and how many can join for each tier battle. So for a regional capital there could be a limit of 5 1st rates, 10 2nd rates and the rest 3rd rate or below. This solves the problem of having too many 1st rates. By having the Queue system you can jump in a ship at whatever port you are at, queue up to join the battle and pick a secondary or tertiary ship you can use if the max number of 1st rates is already reached. It could be first come first serve basis.

 

You can do the same thing in deep water battles too. Where lets say the max number of 4th rates per side is 10. Then the rest of the ships must be 5th rate and lower.

 

I know this is a huge change recommended and hard core pvp'rs who like the realistic having to sail to a port to defend or attack wont like this. I understand. But at the end of the day its a game and i think the devs are struggling to find ways to limit players bringing so many 1st rates to battles. So instead of the constant upping the cost, maybe its time to find alternative solutions to the game play . this is just for port battles mind you.

 

have fun out there.

 If you sailed all the way to a port in a 3rd rate and find yourself stuck because the third rate quota is filled... you might have some very unhappy gamer there. 

This could work but I don't know what mechanic you'd have to setup to avoid pissed off stranded players who can't participate in port battles.

The port system as it stands helps curb these excesses power to some degree.

 

Would you also then limit how many Mercury ships can attend a shallow port battle? These are the top of the food chain for shallow ports.

 

I think that if a group of captains feel up to the task of attacking a deep water port that allows a certain type of vessel then they'll do their best to get the best and most powerful tool for the job. If they don't have that capacity maybe they should attack (or defend) a more modest target.

 

If anything is broken in the current system, it is how easy it is to attack a port that is not defended by players.

There should at least be some kind of AI fleet guarding the port in the proportion of its size and importance. The lack of resistance makes it ridiculously easy to take ports. I have captured deep water ports alone in a Mortar Brig. I feel that it should not be possible in order to keep some balance in this "world".  Capturing a port was a rare and major event in history that would involve large forces on both sides of the fence and it would be nice to have this reflected in the game as well. but I'm getting off topic here....

 

The idea or a lobby is ok but I think you'll have a hard time figuring out a mechanic for it.  

[BungeeLemming]

instead of limiting BR or shipchoices for PBs I say we need land and strategical port battle maps.

 

If we had to plan our attacks and defenses we might see the need of smaller, more nimble ships.

At the moment we have two lines or teams which pound away at each other.

No land behind to be worried, no big fortresses to be afraid of. Wind is playing a role but not enough.

 

The PB maps just dont give enough tactical room to use different vessels.

Go big or go home. Thats the tactic.

[Loco Bandito]

just go cap trader snows, they drop about 50 a pop.

So your promoting PvE on a PvP server.

 

Maybe change the loot tables so if you want a Santi you hunt Spanish players or tea you hunt British players or something. 

[Chimera]

I personally find it very hard to assess these things right now.

The problem is that we are testing "pieces of the game" without knowing how the game will work out when more of the planned mechanics are implemented.

Right now we can say: limit the amount of 1st rates and we are having ideas how to do that with restrictions implemented via game mechanic. What we don't know is how new PB mechanic will play out with land, different ports and a different winning condition.

I would suggest that we wait until these are implemented and we get the wider picture and vision devs have for conquest.

After that we see if it works and start thinking about these topics. I feel like it's a waste of time atm unfortunately. Tweeting parts here and there has no value since we can only see how it works in an environment that won't exist in a couple of months.

TLDR:

Implement the big cornerstones first. Let's test and adjust after.

[Ned Loe]

So your promoting PvE on a PvP server.

 

Maybe change the loot tables so if you want a Santi you hunt Spanish players or tea you hunt British players or something. 

You can't have the best ship without work. Not in this world. 

[Jan van Santen]

after today's patch 1st rates don't need national goods anymore. 

[Guest]

after today's patch 1st rates don't need national goods anymore. 

Only for the time being.

[Taranis]

I don't mind increasing the ship of the lines costs.  I would go about it differently myself - by requiring maintenance costs in addition to hiking the one time cost/time/resource rarity of production. 

 

That said, the simpler way of limiting the 1st rate creep is to have an aggregate BR limit for Port Battles, rather than having a ship type cap as we do now.  At present either folks just show up in ingemars or in santis depending on the type of port.  I would much rather see a total BR fleet limit - so its up to the players to figure out if they want to show up in a few high BR ships to face off more lower BR ships.

[Morales]

May you can put 3 area to cap in the battle near lands. Each area is in differents deep/ shallow water.

 

To cap this port you have come with mercury, inger and maybe firt rates to cap the last area and detroy fortresses / castles / towers

[Ned Loe]

Simply put, you have 3 weeks to build as many 1st rates as possible before they become difficult to build. 

 

Good day. 

[Taranis]

Simply put, you have 3 weeks to build as many 1st rates as possible before they become difficult to build. 

 

Good day. 

 

And stockpile as many national and production resources as possible (per the Admin's post implying that Live Oak will be in Virginia and that other resources may be more historically spread)

[Loco Bandito]

Then hunt the players hunting those things. There is your PvP.

Which means, pirates may have to actually act like pirates... *GASP*

Heck why not.

[The MetaBaron]

1st rates are too cheap (though people already seem to be terrified to sail them), but that said.... I can solo a 1st 2nd or 3rd rate in a 5th rate any day. There is no "bigger is better".

Edited September 3, 2016 by The MetaBaron

[Ned Loe]

Funny, I am just stockpiling money as that is FAR more useful. 

Money might get reset before release.  

[Skully]

I'm not too keen on queued PBs.

The sail to and from a PB should be a challenge as well.

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/15270-pvp1-june-16th-a-victory-at-belize/

Therein you see more ship types.

Edited September 3, 2016 by Skully

[Fuzzyhead12]

So in the last patch the cost for building a 1st rate just went up by 1000 indian tea or iberian meats. This is yet another attempt by devs to increase the cost of 1st rates to get people to use "other ships" when the most power matters.

 

This tweaking of cost for 1st rates will never solve the problem they intend to fix because 1. Players who want to win are going to game hard to bring the best ship they can 2. Power creep as the game progresses, more and more players become filthy rich, clans work together and you will still only see 1st rates.

 

The only way to fix this issue of wanting a better mix of ships in port battles is to make port battles a lobby organized event.

 

Lobby Organized event is similar to how it was in POTBS. Where players queue up to join the battle event. Doing it this way also solves two problems. Mixes the size of ships and balances battles better.

 

Since the change in regional conflict mechanic is already going to encourage players to sail around areas and PVP. Why not have the main event (port battle) be a Queue event, this way more people can participate as well.

 

By having port battles become Queue events, the devs can put limits to what ships and how many can join for each tier battle. So for a regional capital there could be a limit of 5 1st rates, 10 2nd rates and the rest 3rd rate or below. This solves the problem of having too many 1st rates. By having the Queue system you can jump in a ship at whatever port you are at, queue up to join the battle and pick a secondary or tertiary ship you can use if the max number of 1st rates is already reached. It could be first come first serve basis.

 

You can do the same thing in deep water battles too. Where lets say the max number of 4th rates per side is 10. Then the rest of the ships must be 5th rate and lower.

 

I know this is a huge change recommended and hard core pvp'rs who like the realistic having to sail to a port to defend or attack wont like this. I understand. But at the end of the day its a game and i think the devs are struggling to find ways to limit players bringing so many 1st rates to battles. So instead of the constant upping the cost, maybe its time to find alternative solutions to the game play . this is just for port battles mind you.

 

have fun out there.

 

Changes for the next few patches

 

Ive seen some nice statements from mods for upcomming things that will have Major inpact on Combat or Trade

 

-Accleration based Turning, it will inpact all ship, however will inpact ships with higher mass more then light ships, and will change the turnrate of vessels alot. The higher the mass of an object the more time it need to acclerate, accleration is needed to change the movement state of any object.

 

-major Boarding changes, after digging threw some pages of forum i found a statement of a new Boarding systeme, instead of a rock paper scissor game, we will see a more coplex syteme, maybe in a new instance, with actuel Units, that might be able to barricade and sots, however its not stated if its RTS, or first/3rd Person stuff

 

- Return of the social perk, yes it will come back at one point however i dont know what changes it will have

 

-Wipes, yes there is a possible wipe for your gold and ship, akaingame asset, however your XP will be untouched

 

-possible incomming map wipe

 

-Incomming change of Habour resources, resources will e there where they have been in RL at that time

 

everything will affect shipbuilding, and will make it harder to obtain 1st rates BUT the most important patch that will counter the powercreep, is the Accleration based turning, this will affect SOLs far stronger then any other ship.

also Powercreep is just a temporar thing for any NA player, since you dont want to waste you nice firstrate on open sea, so you buy a trinc and still get your ass handed by a suprise XD

 

another problem of your suggestion is simply the Strategic value of having a port in reach and transfering a flag to anotherport and the possebility of intercepting the flagcarrier will be simply lost if you make the portbattel lobbywise, while iam a lazy person who would gladly join a battel like that.

 

1st rates are too cheap (though people already seem to be terrified to sail them), but that said.... I can solo a 1st 2nd or 3rd rate in a 5th rate any day. There is no "bigger is better".

well im a Pyrate and only use my SOLs for port defend, otherwise they are pretty much useless, especialy with the Crewlost and prize of to refill crew. i favor a bit lighter ships

[themule08]

reading your above statements from admins.. I hope a lot of them are true..

 

The SOLs turning and accel needs a huge nerf.. 

 

If the top speed is legit from historical aspects of 12knots..it would take a ship a lot of time to get to that speed due to the mass..

 

In battles I am amazed at how well they turn to keep up with 5th rates and some frigs.

[Fuzzyhead12]

reading your above statements from admins.. I hope a lot of them are true..

 

The SOLs turning and accel needs a huge nerf.. 

 

If the top speed is legit from historical aspects of 12knots..it would take a ship a lot of time to get to that speed due to the mass..

 

In battles I am amazed at how well they turn to keep up with 5th rates and some frigs.

 

Maximum speed it determined by Friction and the Force that moves the object,since SOLs have huge sails and a fairly steamlined hull it is possible to achive 12knts

 

yea especially the bellona amazes me with its 180° speedturn

[Destraex]

I don't think all first rates will be nation specific eventually. Just the really special ones like the current ones we have. Which are extremely famous.

 

My biggest concern is that an attempt at balance of these unique ships with unique characteristics may be made when nations that have a 1st rate they consider is inferior complain. I don't ever want the santi to have exactly the same characteristics as the victory for instance.

reading your above statements from admins.. I hope a lot of them are true..

 

The SOLs turning and accel needs a huge nerf.. 

 

If the top speed is legit from historical aspects of 12knots..it would take a ship a lot of time to get to that speed due to the mass..

 

In battles I am amazed at how well they turn to keep up with 5th rates and some frigs.

There are records of sols catching frigates in real life in the correct wind conditions.

[Fastidius]

Personally i think it is irrelevant to the issues.  If the costs of the ships increase it is mostly irrelevant because the gold stays in circulation.  IE you get gold from PVE in bulk ...costs time. however once the 1st rate is purchased at any price the gold sits in game to be passed around meaning that gold is devalued.

 

The only significant money sink in this game at the moment is gold on players who are no longer playing and crew costs.....which are also devalued with medikits.   the reality is cost of ships is irrelevant to all except those who think their time is wasted.....which will be those finding more rare materials because for the most part its boring.

 

If a vic costs 2 mill or 20 mill its pretty irrelevant to the issues IMO.

 

the economy is not on the devs radar at the moment and these changes to BP are just a waste of everyones time at the moment.