Regional Goods required, need more ships! Post your choice here!

[Isink A Lot]

With the new patch notes it is clear that the Dev's intend to make 1st, and maybe even 2 & 3rd rates require regional goods. With this change I would like to see every nation have there own ships for those rates. So lets get a list together of the missing ships.

 

1st rates

1. Britain - Victory

2. France - L'Ocean

3. Spain - Santismia

4. Dutch - ?

5. Danes - Christian VII per Admin's statement below.

6. Sweden - Christian VII per Admin's statement below.

7. US - ?

 

2nd Rates

1. Britain - ?

2. France - Bucentaure

3. Spain - ?

4. Dutch - ?

5. Danes - ?

6. Sweden - ?

7. US - ?

 

3rd Rates

1. Britain - Bellona

2. France - ?

3. Spain - ?

4. Dutch - ?

5. Danes - ?

6. Sweden - ?

7. US - ?

 

Dev's statement why I am making this post.

 

Experimental hot fix deployed today
 
3) Regional changes implemented for vessels as an experiment that will spread to other high ranked vessels

• Victory - requires british national good to construct - removed until regions are introduced
• Santisima - requires spanish national goods to construct - removed until regions are introduced
• Ocean - requires french national goods to construct
• When introduced - Christian first rate will require Danish/Swedish national goods to construct
• When introduced - Dutch first rate will require Dutch national resources
• Second rates are under consideration

This is done as an experiment to see if regional changes will create more variety in large scale port battles, making national choices more interesting. 
 

UPDATE (H. Darby): The Regional Changes for vessels will be rolled back in a hotfix tomorrow only for existing first rates (L'Ocean will still require national resources).  Bear in mind that this change will be made in the future when trade routes are more correctly established/balanced and more ships are in the game.  In the future, Exceptional ships will be rare, first rates will be rare and hard to build. Many vessels will require you to conduct economic warfare to be able to build them. 
 
Exact post from Admin later in this thread: 
 

Edited September 2, 2016 by Isink A Lot

[Haratik]

I don't quite understand the purpose of your post in the shipyards, are you sure you're not in the wrong area?

[Isink A Lot]

I don't quite understand the purpose of your post in the shipyards, are you sure you're not in the wrong area?

I made this in the shipyard, why was it moved?

 

Purpose is to compile a list of 1st, 2nd, and 3rd rate ship to fill the roles for each nation. So each nation has at least one of these types.

 

My list 

1st rates

1. Britain - Victory

2. France - L'Ocean

3. Spain - Santismia

4. Dutch - ?

5. Danes - Christian VII

6. Sweden - Konung Karl http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/4584-konung-karl-swedish-1st-rate-108-guns-1694/?p=88926

7. US - USS North Carolina http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/7707-american-ship-collection-with-plans/?p=254006

 

2nd Rates

1. Britain - ?

2. France - Bucentaure

3. Spain - ?

4. Dutch - De Ruyter http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/7306-player-ship-selection-1st-half-2016/?p=137543

5. Danes - ?

6. Sweden - ?

7. US - ?

 

3rd Rates

1. Britain - Bellona

2. France - Sceptre http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/13896-battle-of-the-chesapeake-with-plans/?p=255631

3. Spain - Montanes http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/2756-spanish-armadas-collection-with-plans/?p=56065

4. Dutch - Vrijheid http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/3330-vrijheid-dutch-3-rate-1782-with-plans/?p=66606

5. Danes - Wenden http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/4563-wenden-danish-3-rate-1706-with-plans/?p=88426

6. Sweden - Adolph Fredrick http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/7863-unknown-swedish-64-74-guns-3rd-rates-with-plans/?p=148815

7. US - America http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/7707-american-ship-collection-with-plans/?p=164246

Edited September 2, 2016 by Isink A Lot

[Haratik]

I made this in the shipyard, why was it moved?

 

Purpose is to compile a list of 1st, 2nd, and 3rd rate ship to fill the roles foe each nation. So each nation has at least one of these types.

 

Example Spainsh 3rd rate http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/2756-spanish-armadas-collection-with-plans/?p=56065

 

No need to make a new thread, all you have to do is check the available list of plans for each nation in the pinned threads at the top of the shipyard thread list.

Barring that, typing "Ships of the line of <insert nation here>" in your web browser search bar will usually get you what you want.

 

If I understand your thread clearly, you're expecting each nation to have nation specific ships.  The devs made it clear that's never going to happen.  Spanish players will still get the Victory, British players will still get the Santissima, and American players can get the Ocean et cetera.

Edited September 1, 2016 by Haratik

[Isink A Lot]

No need to make a new thread, all you have to do is check the available list of plans for each nation in the pinned threads at the top of the shipyard thread list.

Barring that, typing "Ships of the line of <insert nation here>" in your web browser search bar will usually get you what you want.

 

If I understand your thread clearly, you're expecting each nation to have nation specific ships.  The devs made it clear that's never going to happen.  Spanish players will still get the Victory, British players will still get the Santissima, and American players can get the Ocean et cetera.

 

And I am saying that is BS now. Since the change to a regionally required economic good to make a first rate. All nations should have their own ship for rated ships. If you are a country without your own ship that you can use your own mats to build then you will be at a huge disadvantage to a country that can, and there is no way in changing that! There is no reason not to. Is there some magical not to exceed number of ships we can have? I am sure we can find a suitable ship for each nation.

 

Example lets say the Brits ally Spain and France, and now the rest of the nations who are at war with this alliance has no way to get the one mat need to make all 3 1st rates. Now let the flame wars on the Dev's being in full! It is a recipe for a disaster. And this idea only works if everyone has a ship they can build. IMHO.

 

And this post is about gathering all the ships posted into one spot that can be used to make a voting poll by the Dev's to which ships the player base wants to fill those rolls.

[Mighty_Alex]

 I am sure we can find a suitable ship for each nation..

No, we can't. Some nations didn't even produce 1st rates, because their waters were too shallow. Unique 1st rates is a terrible idea, that will put  some nations like Denmark or Dutch Republic at a great disadvantage.

[Random]

I don't understand the negativity towards this post. I too would like all 1-3 rates require national goods to craft. It won't preclude other nations from being able to build it (just get the resources for them and build your own), but it will give nations more flavor and seeing a Santi sailed by a British player will feel unique and special (to both the enemy and the player him/herself). We just need more ships - hence this post.

[Haratik]

I don't understand the negativity towards this post. I too would like all 1-3 rates require national goods to craft. It won't preclude other nations from being able to build it (just get the resources for them and build your own), but it will give nations more flavor and seeing a Santi sailed by a British player will feel unique and special (to both the enemy and the player him/herself). We just need more ships - hence this post.

 

There's plenty of plans in the shipyard, more ships are coming but there's only so much staff that can work on new ships.  This isn't Wargaming y'know.

[Random]

There's plenty of plans in the shipyard, more ships are coming but there's only so much staff that can work on new ships.  This isn't Wargaming y'know.

Does "plenty" also refer to "plenty diverse"? Wasn't really complaining about speed of development, rather I just pointed out unnecessary negativity to a post that invited community to brainstorm ideas. Don't know what Wargaming is, so I guess no, I don't know...

[Isink A Lot]

Man some of you don't read the patch note?

 

Experimental hot fix deployed today
 
3) Regional changes implemented for vessels as an experiment that will spread to other high ranked vessels

• Victory - requires british national good to construct - removed until regions are introduced
• Santisima - requires spanish national goods to construct - removed until regions are introduced
• Ocean - requires french national goods to construct
• When introduced - Christian first rate will require Danish/Swedish national goods to construct
• When introduced - Dutch first rate will require Dutch national resources
• Second rates are under consideration

This is done as an experiment to see if regional changes will create more variety in large scale port battles, making national choices more interesting. 
 
UPDATE (H. Darby): The Regional Changes for vessels will be rolled back in a hotfix tomorrow only for existing first rates (L'Ocean will still require national resources).  Bear in mind that this change will be made in the future when trade routes are more correctly established/balanced and more ships are in the game.  In the future, Exceptional ships will be rare, first rates will be rare and hard to build. Many vessels will require you to conduct economic warfare to be able to build them. 
 
Exact post from Admin later in this thread: 
 

 

Says right here each nation (except the US) gets their own first rate at some point! And 2nd rates are under consideration.  Can you read Haratik?

 

I don't understand the negativity either. Guess some here think they are the only ones worth posting something.

 

Yep plenty of plans posted all over the place in the shipyard, that's the point of the thread, they are posted all over the place instead of one post that the dev's can draw from for first, second, and third rates by nation.

 

Can I get a mod to move this back to shipyard where it was posted and delete all these unnecessary post so we can get started on this list?

Edited September 2, 2016 by Isink A Lot

[akd]

And I am saying that is BS now. Since the change to a regionally required economic good to make a first rate. All nations should have their own ship for rated ships. If you are a country without your own ship that you can use your own mats to build then you will be at a huge disadvantage to a country that can, and there is no way in changing that! There is no reason not to. Is there some magical not to exceed number of ships we can have? I am sure we can find a suitable ship for each nation.

 

Example lets say the Brits ally Spain and France, and now the rest of the nations who are at war with this alliance has no way to get the one mat need to make all 3 1st rates. Now let the flame wars on the Dev's being in full! It is a recipe for a disaster. And this idea only works if everyone has a ship they can build. IMHO.

 

And this post is about gathering all the ships posted into one spot that can be used to make a voting poll by the Dev's to which ships the player base wants to fill those rolls.

The regional goods advantage is borderline meaningless, so no, I don't think there is a need to artificially balance every nation with artificially balanced ships of the same rate.

The simple extension of your logic is that not only must every nation have a unique ship of a given rate, but that these ships must all be perfectly balanced with no one design having an advantage over others.

[Isink A Lot]

The regional goods advantage is borderline meaningless, so no, I don't think there is a need to artificially balance every nation with artificially balanced ships of the same rate.

The simple extension of your logic is that not only must every nation have a unique ship of a given rate, but that these ships must all be perfectly balanced with no one design having an advantage over others.

Admin stated in the patch notes every nation will have it's own first rate (except US), go read it. And no I do not think they all have to be balanced any more or less than the 3 we have now.

[Daliscar]

Any Incentives planned for pirates if we are not going to be able to craft all the rates? perhaps being able to refit captured ships for more speed/guns like pirates used to do in the past

?

[Serk]

No, we can't. Some nations didn't even produce 1st rates, because their waters were too shallow. Unique 1st rates is a terrible idea, that will put  some nations like Denmark or Dutch Republic at a great disadvantage.

 

I don't know. IMO, the problem has more to do with the ability to easily sail fleets of 25 1rst rate.

 

In the shipyard forum, there are plans for a swedish 110 gun SOL (never built) and Dutch and Danes could field 90 guns 2nd rates that could be more than a match in a world where 3rd rates (and not 1rst) are the backbone of your fleets and where 1rst rate would be really more expensive to sail, making then a much rare ship, and losing it would be a huge blow and economic loss.

I'm more worried about the US. Maybe they could sail some up gunned version of USS America, or one of those early 74 guns 3rd rate with all 32 pounders  guns for a more equal fight. 

 

In the worst case, a nation with no 1rst rate could also ally one that have them, to even the odds.

Edited September 2, 2016 by Serk

[akd]

Admin stated in the patch notes every nation will have it's own first rate (except US), go read it. And no I do not think they all have to be balanced any more or less than the 3 we have now.

 

This is impossible to achieve with balance that will satisfy your demand for equality.  Sweden and Denmark did not have any 1st rates contemporary to Victory / Santissima / Ocean.  I don't know why admin listed Christian VII as a 1st rate as it was most definitely a 2nd rate of 90 guns.  You have to reach back into 17th C. for 1st rates of 100+ guns for these nations, but these would necessarily have some inferior aspects compared to more modern ships (but I think they would be fun if treated realistically).  US is problematic in the other direction, with the first successful design for a 1st Rate arising in a subsequent generation.

 

A perfect, mirror-like balance of rated ships across all nations is neither achievable, nor is it necessary given the mild production advantage offered by national goods.  Anyways, the plan is already to produce various rated ships for various nations, so I don't know what the purpose of this thread really is other than to frame it in terms of "if we don't get these ships, and get them soon, the game is unfair."

 

p.s. WTF is General Pike listed as a 1st Rate? lol

[Isink A Lot]

This is impossible to achieve with balance that will satisfy your demand for equality.  Sweden and Denmark did not have any 1st rates contemporary to Victory / Santissima / Ocean.  I don't know why admin listed Christian VII as a 1st rate as it was most definitely a 2nd rate of 90 guns.  You have to reach back into 17th C. for 1st rates of 100+ guns for these nations, but these would necessarily have some inferior aspects compared to more modern ships (but I think they would be fun if treated realistically).  US is problematic in the other direction, with the first successful design for a 1st Rate arising in a subsequent generation.

 

A perfect, mirror-like balance of rated ships across all nations is neither achievable, nor is it necessary given the mild production advantage offered by national goods.  Anyways, the plan is already to produce various rated ships for various nations, so I don't know what the purpose of this thread really is other than to frame it in terms of "if we don't get these ships, and get them soon, the game is unfair."

 

p.s. WTF is General Pike listed as a 1st Rate? lol

1. Admin has already stated first rates to every nation, not me, the Dev! All I am doing is trying to put together a list of ships that we could vote on as those ships.

2. In a continuous online game there will be no such thing as "rare", over a period of time you will have 25 vs 25 first rates, the side that can replace those by having the one mat available to them at a whim will cause the other nation to lose. If you know you have no shot to "win" human nature will make it that those player will stop playing.

3. No where have I said that nation A can only sail nation A ship, if you can build nations B ship good for you.

4. Where in any post do "I demand equality"? This so call equality is your demand from your thinking not mine.

5. We already have ships with fudged loads to "balance" as you like to call it in game, what's your problem with adding more rare ships to the game?

6. Maybe they are going to up gun the Christian VII to "first rate stats", don't know don't care. Admin has stated it is a first rate, fact.

7. USS North Carolina is a stretch but no more than others.

8. I would prefer all 1st and 2nd where removed! But people love their 1st rates.

9. I just extended the list to 2nd's, that they are considering, to 3rd rates too, seamed reasonable.

 

As for the General Pike lol grabbed wrong link, fixed it now thanks.

 

All this is or was, was a chance to get a list of ships we would like to see in game for the rates per nation to hopefully vote on as the next ships to model. But to much negative BS from peeps with their own agenda for that I see. 15 post of BS i'm done.

[Haratik]

And like I said there's no need for a fairly useless thread. Just my opinion.

As for 1st rates for every nation that's just ridiculous. If that's the case the devs are going to have to either broaden the timeline for ship plans provided or start drifting heavily into fiction for the pre-existing ship plans. Christian VII was not a first rate, and the American first rates would need to be modified to balance with first rates of other nations. There's too much see-sawing here to justify first rates for every nation.

[Teutonic]

I would welcome at the very least a 1st rate for each nation.

 

With the Admins stating 1st rates will need nation specific goods in the future (which I support!) and they are contemplating having 2nd rates be the same. I would think it good that at the very least we can hope to see a 1st rate for each nation. This is a game that will be constantly updated and it's in Early Access. While the current imbalance can be frustrating, I am aware the Devs are making every effort to get content finished and out the door to us.

[Haratik]

I would welcome at the very least a 1st rate for each nation.

With the Admins stating 1st rates will need nation specific goods in the future (which I support!) and they are contemplating having 2nd rates be the same. I would think it good that at the very least we can hope to see a 1st rate for each nation. This is a game that will be constantly updated and it's in Early Access. While the current imbalance can be frustrating, I am aware the Devs are making every effort to get content finished and out the door to us.

The problem is finding both an American and a Dutch first rate that would be viable within the time frame. Especially a Dutch first.

Both nations historically relied on smaller ships than their main foes at sea and had little need for anything larger than third rates.

Edited September 3, 2016 by Haratik

[Serk]

As I said already, there are plans for a Dutch 90 guns 2nd rate, and not having a first rate would not be a problem if most battles where fought with 3rd and 2nd rate with very few 1rst rate.

Maybe we could test a BR cap limit for PB's instead of a set number of ships. That way, using a first rate would mean being outnumbered by your opponent if they use 2nd and 3rd rates. Add to that astronomical cost for 1rst rate and we might find a sweet spot for balance.

As for the US, those "all 32 pounders" 3rd rate are surely a match to a regular 2nd rate?

Edited September 3, 2016 by Serk

[Haratik]

As for the US, those "all 32 pounders" 3rd rate are surely a match to a regular 2nd rate?

Not exactly. If they had operated as designed, the United States would have had their own version of the Swedish Wasa debacle.