Beginner's protection

[Todbringer]

Ok, this is something that I already hinted at in Spain at war thread.

 

Now, as we all know, there is a difference in population between nations. With the current conquest mechanics it created a lot of issues where larger pop nations could essentially zerg lower pop nations and capture large number of ports at once simply by being able to field more assault fleets than smaller nation defending fleets.

 

With new conquest mechanics that will, hopefully, end.

 

But during this weekend Spain lost large number of ports on PvP1 server and got its territory cut into smaller areas, which presented me as a relatively new player with some challenges.

 

New(er) players (I am rank 4) do not have the assets nor ships to be able to have many outposts staffed with ships. in order for a new player to play he must have an incentive to begin with, some time spent / satisfaction from game ratio which will make him want to play more. He must also be able to get some gold and ships in order to play and fight and help his nation.

 

For a new player the only way to get enough gold is by trading goods between ports. He can't earn enough gold by doing missions (in any normal, sane amount of time) and since he sails small ships he can't earn much gold from damage done in battles. Also, in his smaller ship he can't patrol or protect himself from higher ranking players with bigger ships.

 

If the nation territory is so diminished or divided that a player can't get a basic relatively safe trade route which he can use to get some small profit (nothing big, but enough to slowly get started, get better ships, more outposts and move to other areas) and basic materials to craft basic ships and skill up crafting, that nation might enter a death spiral in which it needs more players to fight for ports but no new players will come to it because they can't get started or are reduced to sailing basic starter ships because they can't earn enough gold to buy better one nor they can get materials to craft a new one.

 

Now, some would say that that player can get materials from free ports or by using smuggler flag. New players don't have much gold nor experience in this game. Losing a ship with a cargo worth 100k is a huge setback for a new player. 

 

Also, such a player might lose interest for playing the game if every time they sail they have to stay glued to the screen watching for sails on the horizon. And we all know how "interesting" is to sail for 30 minutes between two ports that are relatively close. It seems like hours.

 

That's why I would suggest something like in Eve.

 

In starting region where the capital is each port has zone of protection where large fast NPC fleet will join battles if the player gets attacked. There will still be small areas between those zones where the player can get attacked, but it would really help to protect beginners.

 

It is very important that any possible profits for trading between ports in that area is small enough that it won't be used for farming gold by high rank players (rather low time spent/profit obtained ratio), but will give enough gold for a starter player to get hang of trading, crafting and to be able to set up his first outpost somewhere.

 

Sorry for the long post.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 30, 2016 by Todbringer

[Chimera]

There was a mechanic like this in the beginner. If you were close to a friendly port and you were attacked you could "call in reinforcements" and an AI fleet would join your battle to even out the BR.

Unfortunately it was exploited so hard by a certain captain I won't mention here, that the developers had to take the mechanic away.

As a tip for newbies to make money. At least in British nation players sell the labor hours for around 100g per hour. This is an easy way to make 100.000 gold per day.

[Eishen]

Perhaps extending the "capital water" protection to all the capital region (as long as it can not be invaded) would help creating this "sure zone" for newbies. If it does not work by itself the return of reinforcements in that same region could be necesary (though not desirable IMHO).

[Guest]

Maybe make reinforcements available only upto a certain rank, maybe rank 2 or 3.

[Hethwill]

Will be exploited if it is freely used.

 

If anything that mechanic should only be available only when the "beginner" is on its own and the battle is closed.

 

But overall I am against "more bots"... there's fleets, there's social, there's roaming npcs... and you gentlemen still suggest more interference.

[Skully]

Perhaps extending the "capital water" protection to all the capital region (as long as it can not be invaded) would help creating this "sure zone" for newbies. If it does not work by itself the return of reinforcements in that same region could be necesary (though not desirable IMHO).

Two things:

• It teaches the wrong means of sailing safe. (Rely on reinforcements.)
• The seasoned players never truly patrolled the Capital area and this will get augmented by the Region Conquests.

What I would like to see is the occasional Outlaw entering the Capital zone to scare the puppies a bit.

I think we need to see Regions in action to see what kind of business can still take place in Capital zones.

[Todbringer]

Two things:

• It teaches the wrong means of sailing safe. (Rely on reinforcements.)
• The seasoned players never truly patrolled the Capital area and this will get augmented by the Region Conquests.

What I would like to see is the occasional Outlaw entering the Capital zone to scare the puppies a bit.

I think we need to see Regions in action to see what kind of business can still take place in Capital zones.

 

 

That's why i proposed that each port in that region has safe zone around it, but that there still are areas between those zones where they can get attacked (zones don't overlap). It would teach new players the dangers of sailing and will get their adrenaline up, but at the same time they will have large enough chance to survive and not lose everything at the start of the game.

[Pagan Pete]

I told Game labs last year, that the War state must be a function of the admiralty and NOT the player base. 

If the System issued orders as to which ports players must attack, then the wholesale destruction of nations (and loss of those players) would not occur.

[Skully]

I told Game labs last year, that the War state must be a function of the admiralty and NOT the player base. 

If the System issued orders as to which ports players must attack, then the wholesale destruction of nations (and loss of those players) would not occur.

Don't like Point & Click adventures. I like Sandboxes much more.

[Hethwill]

There is a safe zone for new players. PvE server is excellent for learning mechanics, approach the combat with good rythm and overall grasp a sense of how big or small the open world is.

 

PvP safe zones were already established correctly before:

 

- fleets up to rank 3

- capital green zone

 

 

Was more than enough for a smooth transition.

 

Responsability of new players getting along with the whole pvp environment falls into the shoulders of the players already in the pvp.

[Powderhorn]

I vaguely recall the goal of the Pacific Coast being opened up for PvE/Safe Zone. This might resolve that issue down the road.

[LeBoiteux]

I vaguely recall the goal of the Pacific Coast being opened up for PvE/Safe Zone.

 

... to replace the PvE server when PvE/PvP servers are merged, if I remember correctly.

[Cmdr RideZ]

Wrote to another thread before, and Pete is mentioning here the same fact.  Which he seems to have mentioned already in 2015.

 

The issue is in the conquest mechanism.  Players are unable to make alliances, wars, in manner that it benefits the game.  There is nothing bad in this, I think it is kinda natural for humans to do so.  Still, this is the reason why the current voting mechanism does not work, and wont ever work.

 

There has to be a king who says how the situation is.  "Played a game of golf with the King of VP, and I lost.  That was humiliating, and because of that, there shall be a war between GB and VP!"

 

When was the last war between GB and VP? Kings make the things interesting.

[Todbringer]

GET IN A CLAN !! thats all that i can say...... no need for beginners to sail around allone on the waters.

first day i joined a clan they gave me a new gold ship and money to get started, also do alot of mision with the members of the clan they can teach you alot and wil introduse you to the more political side of the game.

 

I am in a clan, but you can't expect/force people to join clans as soon as they roll a char. Part of choosing a clan is to first know what you as a player enjoy to do the most, get to know people and then choose a clan.

 

Besides, if you need clanmates to provide escort for your trader's cutter with 50k worth of cargo then something is obviously wrong.

 

There is a safe zone for new players. PvE server is excellent for learning mechanics, approach the combat with good rythm and overall grasp a sense of how big or small the open world is.

 

You don't seriously propose that I have to roll a char first on PvE server, rank him up to learn to play and then create a new char on PvP server and do all that again? Just how many people are going to do that? they will most likely just stay on PvE server and that means losing players for PvP server.

 

Also, in that case I'll still be in the same position regarding goods, money, ships and outposts as stated above, with the only exception that I will know a bit more about the game.

 

The idea is to allow new players to get started more easily and be in a position to actually help their nation, not to strugle to open first outpost if their trader with goods gets taken.

Edited August 30, 2016 by Todbringer

[Hethwill]

IMO, as a newcomer, and after selection a nation, the sequence should be:

 

1. Explore the User Interface. Bring any doubts into Help/Nation/Global.

 

2. Try a battle against an AI trader. Test the combat controls, adjust as needed.

 

3. Establish the first Outpost in a Free Town - this means taking the first long voyage and open a way to play with the delivery system.

 

4.....

 

( fill in what you feel like on 4 and all topics after that )

 

I am sorry but I am not seeing a newcomer making runs of 50k unless he has some lazy and lousy clanmates which are not themselves ready for a full pvp environment. And yes, I mean it with ALL meaning of pvp.

 

My motto ? A trader has no rank.

 

He's neither a newcomer nor a veteran. He's a trader.

[Cmdr RideZ]

btw. he would not need to do the trade runs, if the crew were cheaper.  The crew is a huge money sink when leveling, especially for a new player.  I would say even that the mechanism is a bit broken.

 

But yes, the n00b protected area is not a good idea.  Nor n00b protection.  Alt accounts can then be used to transport the goods etc.

 

The other issues that lead to this, should be fixed.

[Chimera]

I vaguely recall the goal of the Pacific Coast being opened up for PvE/Safe Zone. This might resolve that issue down the road.

It was on the development roadmap. But content was moved back while the release date wasn't touched. I'm afraid it might have fallen victim to the tight schedule. As far as I recall it is not on the development road map anymore. Might be mistaken

[Powderhorn]

I'm honestly not certain. I don't know how much legwork has or has not been done on it already, or how much in total is required. Honestly, my only thing is that it'd just be kinda weird to start on the Pacific coast in an Age of Sail game.

[Todbringer]

btw. he would not need to do the trade runs, if the crew were cheaper.  The crew is a huge money sink when leveling, especially for a new player.  I would say even that the mechanism is a bit broken.

 

But yes, the n00b protected area is not a good idea.  Nor n00b protection.  Alt accounts can then be used to transport the goods etc.

 

The other issues that lead to this, should be fixed.

 

Why would he use alts to transport goods? We are talking about safe zones around ports in capital region. he can do it without alts. And if someone survived long trip to capitol region, what difference does it make then if he has 2-3 safe zones he passes through?

 

Only way to learn something is to try doing it, but for that you must have some kind of a cushion because in the beginning you will make mistakes. You will buy cannons/carronades which are not good for your ship, you will buy wrong ships, you will lose ships, you will buy goods and when you arrive at port to sell them you will find out about players saturating market with certain goods and you will lose money on it. Also, when someone who doesn't even know basic game mechanics yet comes into game for the first time, it is questionable if he'll even know right questions to ask in help chat.

 

And trading is the only way to make enough gold in the beginning to skill up crafting, open an outpost and get some ships. Actually, unless you are high rank crafter, trading is the only way to earn enough money unless you have a high damage ship. And the only way to earn enough gold after rank 2/3/4 or whichever would be to leave safe zones who wouldn't have profitable enough goods to sell.

 

And players should have an option to do and start how they feel comfortable, and not pvp or long sailing get shoved down their throats within the first hour of playing. If he wants to move to free ports, he can. If not, he can start slowly.

[Enraged Ewok]

Why would he use alts to transport goods? We are talking about safe zones around ports in capital region. he can do it without alts. And if someone survived long trip to capitol region, what difference does it make then if he has 2-3 safe zones he passes through?

 

Only way to learn something is to try doing it, but for that you must have some kind of a cushion because in the beginning you will make mistakes. You will buy cannons/carronades which are not good for your ship, you will buy wrong ships, you will lose ships, you will buy goods and when you arrive at port to sell them you will find out about players saturating market with certain goods and you will lose money on it. Also, when someone who doesn't even know basic game mechanics yet comes into game for the first time, it is questionable if he'll even know right questions to ask in help chat.

 

And trading is the only way to make enough gold in the beginning to skill up crafting, open an outpost and get some ships. Actually, unless you are high rank crafter, trading is the only way to earn enough money unless you have a high damage ship. And the only way to earn enough gold after rank 2/3/4 or whichever would be to leave safe zones who wouldn't have profitable enough goods to sell.

 

And players should have an option to do and start how they feel comfortable, and not pvp or long sailing get shoved down their throats within the first hour of playing. If he wants to move to free ports, he can. If not, he can start slowly.

 

If you want an example of why the "safe zone" for all ports in the capital region is bad, as I pirate I would literally never need to leave to region to do all my econ. Someone's chance of intercepting me goes from good if I'm traveling from MT to Islet, Blondel, Lorimers, etc. to very slim. I'd argue that the cushion is a bad thing, because the more you coddle a newbie the harder they get jolted the first time they get killed or captured by another player. 

 

Regarding making money, there is no need for a newbie to trade early on. Trading requires money to start with, which they don't have. The best way to make money, as stated above, is offering up their labor hours. This gives them both gold and crafting XP, and is the best return on gold a newbie can get. No safe zone needed for offering labor hours.

[Todbringer]

the important part of my suggestion was that any possible profit in starting area be very low and only materials for crafting basic ships can be found there (maybe up to brig and trader's brig?) after which they have to move on if they want to cover costs and profit.

 

if newbie offers LH then he can't skill up his own crafting and selling LH is to my opinion a bit complicated for a newbie. I didn't even know about labour hours until I started crafting, and that was at rank 2 when I managed to understand how it all works and how to get mats. And I had no idea they existed, so i couldn't even ask about them. And I ams till discovering new things I had no idea existed.

 

And trading is better, they sail, visit ports, get accustomed to goods, prices, shop, contracts, earn good gold (after losing my trader with goods I was down to some 30k, started trading and after 2 days had 900+k, and then spent it on crafting and buildings in Corrientes and Pinar del Rio, just to had them captured the next day   ). LOL, bad luck.

 

Anyway, safe zones with possibility to get attacked between zones, maybe some nice missions to introduce different aspects of games like deliver goods, craft something, attack a ship, board a ship, make an outpost in another region.

 

Most online games have safe beginner areas, don't really see why this game shouldn't.

[Cmdr RideZ]

Todbringer...

 

Maybe there could be Capital, and regional towns around it, that cannot be captured, and the water ways to those town would be all green zone.  None of those towns could be captured.  This way the n00bs could be there safe and do their trade etc.

 

Or could it be...

 

So you can trade, without ever taking your trader out from the green zone.  You can build all the ships, without being attacked, just safely transport your goods.  This kinda ruins the whole idea of PvP server and OW PvP and piracy, and  -> There is a PvE server already for this.

 

I also think you misunderstood the alt part.  The more experienced players who have 50 million already in their pocket, they can just sail their low level alts, protect their goods with n00b protection barrier.  I do not like the idea.

 

So...  How to provide money for new players, for people who are doing PvE missions.  Well, just return 75% from the lost crew if lost in PvE missions.  How to stop an exploit where people board ships in PvE missions, and sell those with amazing profits.  Then you do not even lose the men?  Well, these are 2 separated things.  The later pretty much is there because boarding is broken, badly.  If nothing more, drop the admirality sell reward.

 

Indeed, boarding has to be redone, but shall we test a Duel week first?  We are now only delayed by 3 months, shall we make that 6?

[Todbringer]

Not really because you wouldn't have materials needed to craft anything other than a basic ship in that area. You would have to bring materials from other regions for any ship bigger than, let's say brig and better quality than basic (just like you have to do now). if someone brings materials needed to craft bigger better ship to starter zone, then the fact he'll have protection that last 10 minutes of sailing is not such a gamebreaker. And safe zones would work on all players there, not just beginners (so no need for alts), but would create a safer area for beginners.

 

And between ports there would be breaks in safe zones. I imagined a safe zone like a small circle around each port and those circles do not overlap, so there are always small windows between them where you can get attacked. Not sure, but I don't think there is THAT much piracy going on in areas around capitols.

 

I don't think such a mechanic in capital regions would have a huge effect on gameplay.

 

On other hand, if you enable players to build higher level ships in that region but need materials from other regions to craft better quality ships, then that could also enable players to put up a resistance in case their nation loses all their other ports.

[Hethwill]

10 minutes invulnerability sail is enough to never ever ever ever ever ever be in pvp. Many towns are less than 5 minutes from each other.

 

Why not provide armed escort to them and "teach" by example ?...

[Cmdr RideZ]

Not really because you wouldn't have materials needed to craft anything other than a basic ship in that area.

 

So you cannot build any buildings in the green area?  For example pirates should not be able to build anything in MT, LI and Islet?  GB Should not be able to build any building to KPR, OM, Carlisle.  Else there would be surplus of materials for the green area, right?  I am also sure that the more experienced players will leave the materials at the green area for the beginners.

 

Anyway..  I think I agree to disagree here.