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'Le Vengeur' French Indiaman/3rd Rate 1756

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Le Vengeur

French indiaman/3rd Rate

64 guns

1756

 

 

The Vengeur was a 64-gun ship of the line of the French Navy designed by Antoine Groignard. She saw action with Bailli de Suffren during the American War of Independence.

 

Vengeur_mg_7151-black.jpg

 

 

Model:

1024px-Vengeur_mg_7152.jpg

1024px-Vengeur_mg_7153.jpg

800px-Vengeur_mg_7154.jpg

1024px-Vengeur_mg_7157.jpg

1024px-Vengeur_mg_7158.jpg

800px-Vengeur_mg_7159.jpg

 

 

Plans:

R4jo75T.jpg

 

This plan is probably from: https://www.amazon.fr/Vaisseaux-fr%C3%A9gates-Choiseul-Sartine-Marine/dp/B000XA74IS

1755Jir.jpg?1

 

Stern decorations by Philippe Caffieri. Full plan available in the French archives No 277:http://www.servicehistorique.sga.defense.gouv.fr/sites/default/files/MV_PLANS-BATIMENTS-A-VOILES.compressed.pdf

 

Drawing from the book: Ship Decoration 1630-1780 by Andy Peters https://books.google.gr/books?id=RoyuCAAAQBAJ&pg=PT179&lpg=PT179&dq=le+vengeur+caffieri&source=bl&ots=7v9gaG2bo7&sig=-rIdCxNkqNN9gal_0QJD8p4F_X0&hl=el&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiK_tbgqOHOAhUBtBQKHfvXB7UQ6AEIGjAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

tvYpmX8.png

 

 

Characteristics:
 
Length: 48 m (157 ft) 
Beam: 12.34 m (40.5 ft)
Draught: 5.2 m (17 ft) 
Complement: 396 men 
Displacement: 1300 tonnes
 
Armament:
Lower battery: 24 x 24-pounder long guns
Upper battery: 28 x 12-pounder long guns
Quarterdeck: 6 x 6-pounder long guns
Forecaste: 2 x 6-pounder long guns

 

 

 

Sources*:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ship_Vengeur_(1765)#cite_note-FCDIVengeur-2

http://3decks.pbworks.com/w/page/913933/FCDI%20Vengeur

http://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=show_ship&id=2373

http://5500.forumactif.org/t540p400-discussion-generale-sur-l-artesien

http://www.leradoubduponant.com/t965p225-le-radoub-du-ponant-origine-des-voiles-royales

 

 

 

 

 

 

*The sources are conflicting in dimensions and armament. Need confirmation.

 

 

Histoire des vaisseaux le Vengeur et la Belle-Poule: http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6359176k.r=Histoire%20des%20vaisseaux%20le%20Vengeur%20et%20la%20Belle-Poule?rk=21459;2

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Nice find! We definitely need more armed Traders. I think 64 + Crew will make it a 4th rate. Also, I would remove 2nd deck for NA and make her only 24x12lb Trader. Very nice ship. 

 

Example:

 

y0EQokT.jpg

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I think 64 + Crew will make it a 4th rate. Also, I would remove 2nd deck for NA and make her only 24x12lb Trader.

Venguer was a 64-gun SoL.

Vengeur was originally built as an East Indiaman for the French East India Company. Her plans, however, followed military specification, as she was suppoesd to be able to integrate a naval squadron if necessary.

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*The sources are conflicting in dimensions and armament. Need confirmation.

 

NB : there were :

 

Le Vengeur (1756-1785) : an Indiaman built and used by the French East India Company, then sold to the French Navy in 1768 : 1300 tx and 64 guns

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ship_Vengeur_(1765)#cite_note-FCDIVengeur-2

 

Le Vengeur du Peuple, also called Le Marseillois (1766-1794), a 74-gun Sol that took part more actively in the American Revolutionary War and was more famous

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vengeur_du_Peuple

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NB : there were :

 

Le Vengeur (1756-1785) : an Indiaman built and used by the French East India Company, then sold to the French Navy in 1768 : 1300 tx and 64 guns

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ship_Vengeur_(1765)#cite_note-FCDIVengeur-2

 

Le Vengeur du Peuple, also called Le Marseillois (1766-1794), a 74-gun Sol that took part more actively in the American Revolutionary War and was more famous

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vengeur_du_Peuple

 

 

I've paid attention not to mix the info of these two different ships. But all three sources(wikipedia,3decks,threedecks) have different dimensions.

 

I've also done some research to check if the books those sites use as sources are correct.

 

 

 

For example in 3decks the sources are:

 

1) "French site on the Compagne des Indes ships". But the link is not working.

 

2) Using google books i've searched Rif Winfield's British Warships in the Age of Sail and the results i've got where either very brief(The name is only mentioned as part of a squadron, no more no less) or different vessels with too few guns and dates with more than a decade later when the Vengeur was wrecked.

 

 

 

Threedecks sources are:

 

1)Nomenclature des Navires Français de 1715 à 1774 by Alain Demerliac. I can't check since i have the book.

 

2) French wikipedia. I couldn't find an entry for the particular vessel in question. The oldest entry with that name was the Vengeur de Peuple. 

 

So threedecks might has it's info wrong.

 

 

 

 

English wikipedia:

 

Uses the old 3decks website and some books that i do not own.

 

 

 

So yeah :/ Any help welcome!

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Best (but always too limited) source for the history of the ships of the French East India Company is : http://www.memoiredeshommes.sga.defense.gouv.fr/en/arkotheque/client/mdh/compagnie_des_indes/armement_navires_resu_rech.php

There are some information on the armament et the service of Le Vengeur

 

It's always better than nothing ;) Thanks!

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Their is a nice musueum about the French east india company in Lorient. It has very nice models (moderns one, HUGES models, with some models, completly decomposed, deck by deck)

-> What I learned there : Frenche East India company built dual purpose ships, with a full lenght lower gundeck able to recieve 24 pounders guns,  just before the Seven year war, Vengeur must be one of those, easly converted into 64 guns ships. They served in Seven year war india campaign, and with Suffren after. It is to be noted that they were considered "bad ships", too low to be good SOL (lower gundeck) and slow as merchants ships ...
 

But : on the indian theater, where english also used indiaman as warship, they were powerful enough to be in the line of battle, and served well their purpose :) 

Some of those ships were : Comte de Provence, Comte D'Artois, and I did not knew about the vengeur , but must be one of them. 

some pics of the museum models : Comte d'Artois

maq_coupe-artois.jpg

 

 

I have some good qualities photos lost in the darkness of my hardrive, I can search and post them if someone is interested

 

EDIT : I STRONGLY recommend this museum, as it is very interesting, very modern in design, placed into the saint louis citadel (Vauban Fort) which is well preserved.... and the ship models are just gorgeous, specifically built for the musueum by master craftmen, even better than some of the National Maritime Museum of Paris

Edited by Sire Trinkof
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I am. :)

I've started a thread about the French East India Company : http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/13962-xviii-cent-fluyts-of-the-french-east-india-company-with-plans/

If you wish to contribute...

will dig into the archive of my hardrive, call emergency service if you have no news in a week :)

Edited by Sire Trinkof
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Best (but always too limited) source for the history of the ships of the French East India Company is : http://www.memoiredeshommes.sga.defense.gouv.fr/en/arkotheque/client/mdh/compagnie_des_indes/armement_navires_resu_rech.php

There are some information on the armament and the service of Le Vengeur

 

can you decipher what this is alluding to as far as reference?  Something about ship modelling:

 

  • Boudriot, Jean: Un modèle du Vengeur 1756-85

    Neptunia Vol. 38, Paris, 1983. pp 152:1-8, ill.

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<p>

can you decipher what this is alluding to as far as reference? Something about ship modelling:

  • Boudriot, Jean: Un modèle du Vengeur 1756-85.

    Neptunia Vol. 38, Paris, 1983. pp 152:1-8, ill.

Probably this book: http://ancre.fr/en/ouvrages-de-base-en/59-vaisseaux-les-de-50-et-64-canons.html

At the very bottom of the contents.

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can you decipher what this is alluding to as far as reference?  Something about ship modelling:

 

  • Boudriot, Jean: Un modèle du Vengeur 1756-85

    Neptunia Vol. 38, Paris, 1983. pp 152:1-8, ill.

 

 

It's a back issue from the magazine Neptunia you can order there : http://www.aamm.fr/boutique/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=67&products_id=327

most probably displaying a ship model and/or plans of Le Vengeur, an article written before the book Sella mentions (1994). 

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It's a back issue from the magazine Neptunia you can order there : http://www.aamm.fr/boutique/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=67&products_id=327

most probably displaying a ship model and/or plans of Le Vengeur, an article written before the book Sella mentions (1994). 

 

I'm guessing that's where you'll probably find your most accurate measurements on her, no?

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A most detailed account on the ship, referring also to the dimensions not only of the hull but also of the masts and yards, etc., can be found in the above mentioned book by Patrick Villiers (La Marine de Louis XVI, I. de Choiseul à Sartine), pp. 362-370. It includes a drawing of the ship ornaments (stern and quarter galleries only) made by Caffieri in 1766 (destined for the ship as refitted for the navy; they differ from the ornaments of the model), and two representations of a plan of the refitted ship as kept in the Danish National Archives (in black and white). The plan is not signed but was made by either Groignard - who had revised the plan for the refit of the ship - or Ollivier - who was responsible for the execution of the refit). Also included are photos of the model of Le Vengeur. This model is from the Musée de la Marine, Paris, and represents the ship as it had been designed by Groignard for the Compagnie des Indes in 1756. The dimensions of the ship as planned in 1755 were: longueur 150 pieds, largeur 40 pieds, creux 19 pieds 6 pouces. However, the dimensions of the ship actually built in 1756 were:

Longueur étrave-étambot, de rablure en rablure: 158 pieds (51,32m)

Largeur au maître bau, en dehors des membres: 41 pieds 6 p. (13,48m)

Creux au maître bau: 20 pieds 6 p. (6,66m)

The plan of the refitted ship as kept in the Danish National Archives shows that the length was to be extended to 162 pieds. However, a report of Brest engineers dated 1775 says: "Le Vengeur a 166 pieds de longueur et 41 pieds 6 pouces de bau", which means it was even more extended than originally planned.

The article by Boudriot about the Musée de la Marine model is in Neptunia N° 152 (not N° 38), 4e trimestre décembre 1983, pp.1-8.

BTW, some people are unable even today to distinguish the 64-gun ship Le Vengeur from the 74-gun ship Le Vengeur du Peuple, ex-Le Marseillois. In the recently published Osprey title on "The Glorious First of June 1794" by a certain Mark Lardas, the Musée de la Marine model is sold to the reader as a representation of Le Vengeur du Peuple (p.27) ... :rolleyes:

Demerliac has the following information on the Cie des Indes Vengeur (La Marine de Louis XV. Nomenclature des navires français de 1715 à 1774, p. 163, N°. 1785):

Port: 1399 tonneaux

Déplacement en charge: 2300 tx

Longueur: 158' (Quille: 146') x Largeur: 40' 6" x Creux: 17' 6", Tirant d'eau: 19'/21'

 

And on the navy Vengeur (ibid., p. 47, N°. 294):

Port: 1250 tonneaux

Déplacement en charge: 2350 tx

Longueur: 162' (Quille: 150'?) x Largeur: 41' 6" x Creux: 21', Tirant d'eau: 19' 3 "/20' 9"

 

Edited by Wagram
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