Overrule High Council decisions. New Alliance patch

[fransgelden]

I have some concerns in our nation about the clans. Most of the big active clans who doing Port Battles will follow the High Council diplomatic decisions and the High Council decides who is the enemy of the Verenidge Provincien (United Provinces). With the new Alliance patch, I had a heated discussion with my diplomatic representative on the issue if we are to attack any nation listed as enemies of our nation in the Politics tab.

 

I decided to create my own clan to trade and hunt down enemy PvP of our nation if they threaten our trade, even in enemy waters, if that particular nation is branded as enemy of our nation by national vote.

 

I'm concerned about the fact my clan might be branded as a rogue clan, because we not following the rules of the High Council and instead the Politics by national vote. We will attack national ports if its in our interest, despite any diplomatic treaties from the High Council and said enemy nation.

 

Basically, I'm saying I'm not recognizing our nation High Council and will enjoy the game my way. The game was meant to be about port battles and fun, not a bunch of rules and politics.

 

And if they branded me as a rogue clan, what's gonna happen? Will the devs throw the ban hammer or something?

[Anolytic]

 

 

And if they branded me as a rogue clan, what's gonna happen? Will the devs throw the ban hammer or something?

They definitely do nothing of the sort.

 

Apart from this there are currently few or no consequences from being branded rogue. Which I'm okay with. There's been some talk about possibilities in the future to become outlawed, an idea that I like, but fear abuse if a clan can be outlawed within  a faction. As of yet you do not need to worry about this. Let the council clans of your nation do their thing and you do your thing and you will probably be alright.

[Skully]

We always have, and always will respect our allies.

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/15638-development-plans-for-conquest-mechanics-rvr/?p=293246

So I say again to all Nationals and Pirates alike, join The Free Empire! Fight to the death for your rightfull freedom!

Joining is free! http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/14574-curing-the-black-plague-bug/

And we have (almost free) Medkits.

Here is my view:

A Clan going rogue should be in stages. As the Clan builds up Clan alliances outside the Nation ones, it should gain access to "enemy" ports. The Nation could start with denying that Clan access to National ports. (It really depends on how much power the Clan holds in Town Councils, currently only Lord Protector, whether access is truly lost.) Finally the Nation boots the Clan into Independents (/currently Pirates), but any town with Clan power will either switch or turn that power into hostility. (Needs more thought.)

So all actions and consequences should not be treated lightly as there could be severe impact.

[fox2run]

I have some concerns in our nation about the clans. Most of the big active clans who doing Port Battles will follow the High Council diplomatic decisions and the High Council decides who is the enemy of the Verenidge Provincien (United Provinces). With the new Alliance patch, I had a heated discussion with my diplomatic representative on the issue if we are to attack any nation listed as enemies of our nation in the Politics tab.

 

I decided to create my own clan to trade and hunt down enemy PvP of our nation if they threaten our trade, even in enemy waters, if that particular nation is branded as enemy of our nation by national vote.

 

I'm concerned about the fact my clan might be branded as a rogue clan, because we not following the rules of the High Council and instead the Politics by national vote. We will attack national ports if its in our interest, despite any diplomatic treaties from the High Council and said enemy nation.

 

Basically, I'm saying I'm not recognizing our nation High Council and will enjoy the game my way. The game was meant to be about port battles and fun, not a bunch of rules and politics.

 

And if they branded me as a rogue clan, what's gonna happen? Will the devs throw the ban hammer or something?

 

Nothing bad happens. You just have to remember that the clan-leaders and afficionados in the leading clans marking you as rogue wont stop by that. They will troll, bash and make personal attacks on the nation-chat, in this forum and maybe also in battles.... Been there, done that...

 

But you are not alone... A lot of players dont really like those self-proclaimed leaders and hence there will be ground for recruiting more members for your clan. A pc-game is meant to be played as you buy the game. No private mumbo-jumbo should ever have any influence on that. And I agree on you 100% that gamemechanics or ban-politics could be formed in a way so that these powermongers could be contained.

 

The voting-system is one step - but others could and should be applied. 

Edited August 18, 2016 by fox2run

[Smithy]

my alliances will follow what the game and majority have voted and no longer will it be whatever a handful of people i dont know decided on some random teamspeak i was never a part of. If the UI says someone is an enemy the high leaders can sit and swivel otherwise how will this system be tested to be any use.

Edited August 18, 2016 by Smithy

[fransgelden]

Progress report:

It seems for every endeavour, a person has to pay the price. After leaving and created my own clan which expressed clearly we don't recognize the high council, we literally being left in the dust.

Comments in the nation chat became mocking and derogatory towards us. We were kicked from the nation teamspeak, who invites everyone, but not us. I'm still looking for a teamspeak server and considering various options.

Now we are regarded as "rogue", just because we don't honour treaties which is in clear contradiction to the national vote to go to war with said nations.

At the moment, my clan is growing with new players and old members who got fed up with the other clans and council, but its an emotional drain to play this game when I have to defend my reasons while being mocked and insulted by others players.

The council did a great job at brainwashing the majority of other players on the matter of you part of the council, or you out.

[fox2run]

Progress report:

It seems for every endeavour, a person has to pay the price. After leaving and created my own clan which expressed clearly we don't recognize the high council, we literally being left in the dust.

Comments in the nation chat became mocking and derogatory towards us. We were kicked from the nation teamspeak, who invites everyone, but not us. I'm still looking for a teamspeak server and considering various options.

Now we are regarded as "rogue", just because we don't honour treaties which is in clear contradiction to the national vote to go to war with said nations.

At the moment, my clan is growing with new players and old members who got fed up with the other clans and council, but its an emotional drain to play this game when I have to defend my reasons while being mocked and insulted by others players.

The council did a great job at brainwashing the majority of other players on the matter of you part of the council, or you out.

 

Yes, those councils lack a sence of democracy... (I think the D-N has seats open for "rogue" clans though). Arguing for other political alliances etc. is met by rage, bashing, etc. So not much has changed. It reminds me of El Salvador that was ruled by 14 families. Any opposition got smashed! 

 

The only thing you could do is to ignore them and make your own TS. (Or maybe we should arrange a new, common TS for all the outcasted. :-)

[Chimera]

So when you told "your council" that you don't respect the decisions made by that representational organ of your nation you can't understand why you have been kicked of the infrastructure that council (the players forming it) have provided?

Are you serious?

[Tac]

Progress report:

It seems for every endeavour, a person has to pay the price. After leaving and created my own clan which expressed clearly we don't recognize the high council, we literally being left in the dust.

Comments in the nation chat became mocking and derogatory towards us. We were kicked from the nation teamspeak, who invites everyone, but not us. I'm still looking for a teamspeak server and considering various options.

Now we are regarded as "rogue", just because we don't honour treaties which is in clear contradiction to the national vote to go to war with said nations.

At the moment, my clan is growing with new players and old members who got fed up with the other clans and council, but its an emotional drain to play this game when I have to defend my reasons while being mocked and insulted by others players.

The council did a great job at brainwashing the majority of other players on the matter of you part of the council, or you out.

Sir , the DAS Dutch TS is open to everyone and has been since the start of OW we only expect participants to respect each other whilst you are there, all players are welcome so if you are struggling for a TS feel free to join.

[fox2run]

So when you told "your council" that you don't respect the decisions made by that representational organ of your nation you can't understand why you have been kicked of the infrastructure that council (the players forming it) have provided?

Are you serious?

 

No council is an official in-game council. All is self-proclaimed. Only thing official is the politics. Nothing else. So no council can - in any way - claim to represent a nation nor players. It is very simple. What you councilers have to understand is just that. And if players do not follow your line, you have to accept that without bashing, flaming etc. Yesterday I talked about war versus a country which the leading council wanted an alliance with - and what happened: I was called "idiot" 4-5 times on the national chat. Id never called any players such a thing - but this says it all: some players dont understand other opinions or opposition. (BTW I reported this bad behavior - hope some meassures will be taken into account.)

[Knobby]

Hello Frans,
I would like to tell you a little about how the Dutch council works.
Currently all clans that are active in PvP are welcome to have a representative on the council, and will have 1 vote in all decisions the council votes on. Why only active PvP clans? Well, because those are the ones who will do the vast majority of the fighting. Please note that there is nobody taking notes on how often members of clans participate in organized PvP, and there is currently no minimum member criteria for joining the council.
The only other requisite is that all clans represented in the council abide by the council decisions, which are decided by majority vote, regardless of the individual clans vote.
I'm sure you will agree that this is only fair, any system where individual clans are not bound by the majority just because they voted against it is pointless. A president is president of the whole country, not just of the ppl who voted for him.

People like fox2run paint councils (disclaimer: I have no idea how other nations councils are organized) as some kind of tyranny by the 1%, while in fact before the ingame voting mechanic they were the closest thing to democratic representation possible in the game as it was.

Now with the new voting mechanic, the council will have to reevaluate its role. But I will state that a council will still be necessary. You can't have organized PvP without an organizing body, and a disorganized nation will always be beaten by an organized one.

Regarding your clan being declared rogue: this only means that our allies are informed that your members cannot be expected to honor any agreements between our nations, and that our allies need not do so either.
Before the alliance patch this meant that they should expect to be attacked by you, and conversely could also attack you. (With the alliance mechanic this is now no longer possible). Nothing is stopping you from contacting those nations and making your own agreements however.

Regarding the nation TS: in principle all Dutch clans are welcome on the national TS, free of charge, I might add. However, when a clan is actively disregarding (this is what rogue means) the council policy, and I will remind you again they represent the majority of the nation's PvP work force, they are no longer welcome.
The reason for this is a concern for espionage, as we have experienced this in the past. For example the FDM clan is declared rogue, and not welcome on the national TS. This is a clan of known enemy alts, with the sole purpose of stirring up trouble between us and our allies, and acting as spies for their pirate friends ganking in our waters.
Now this might not the case with your clan, as you have been a known Dutch player for a long time and have contributed in the past, but you can understand the difficulty in ascertaining these things and the only reasonably effective measure is a blanket policy.

Regarding your fear of a ban: I can only say you have nothing to fear, they have no kind of pull with the devs whatsoever. And I'm amazed at the powers you seem to ascribe to the council, like it's some form of Illuminati.

As I was not part of any discussion with, or regarding, you, I can only guess as to what happend. But I suspect you wanted to attack one of the Antilles-treaty members this weekend and were told not to. The reason for this is that the treaty stated that it would be in effect until the Monday after the Diplo patch, and the Dutch nation is concerned about keeping it's word.

As of today's maintenance, the Antilles-treaty is no longer in effect, and you are free to attack the nations the game allows you to.

And as I have now written a whole wall of text on my phone I will end with an offer: If you, after reading my thesis about the Dutch council, want to make a fresh start I am willing to speak to the council on your behalf. Provided ofcourse that you and your clan after taking your seat and vote on the council will abide by the majority decisions regardless of your individual vote on matters.

Regards, Bout bij Nacht

Edited August 22, 2016 by Knobby

[fox2run]

I understand that you like to organize PvP in your home-made and self-proclaimed council. And thats fine BUT remember this: the nation is for ALL players. Not only those that involve themselves with PvP or clans. 

 

A solo-players voice on nation politics should matter just as much as a nerd-24/7 PvP-guy. 

 

Its so annoying that you equal the out-of-the-box, private organized, councils with the nations. 

 

Only in-game mechanics should do this. If you like a form of a national council, it has to be in the game-mechanics. 

 

The nations are so much bigger than your councils and the big mistake you do, is to think that you kind of steers the nations inh your councils. You do not. And in the efforts to do so, you are really pissing off a lot of players by your demands, bashing, isolations etc... This sort of behavior (in almost all nations) just make it more clear that your power should be dimished by in-game mechanics. 

 

The new political feature is one way to do this.

[Knobby]

I understand that you like to organize PvP in your home-made and self-proclaimed council. And thats fine BUT remember this: the nation is for ALL players. Not only those that involve themselves with PvP or clans. 

 

A solo-players voice on nation politics should matter just as much as a nerd-24/7 PvP-guy. 

 

Its so annoying that you equal the out-of-the-box, private organized, councils with the nations. 

 

Only in-game mechanics should do this. If you like a form of a national council, it has to be in the game-mechanics. 

 

The nations are so much bigger than your councils and the big mistake you do, is to think that you kind of steers the nations inh your councils. You do not. And in the efforts to do so, you are really pissing off a lot of players by your demands, bashing, isolations etc... This sort of behavior (in almost all nations) just make it more clear that your power should be dimished by in-game mechanics. 

 

The new political feature is one way to do this.

Ok, so you ignore the part where i explain that the council is no more than the organizing body of a very large number of members represented by their clan-representative who has an equal vote in the decisions the council makes. A council that is in essence INclusive because all clans are welcomed so long as they respect the decision making process of the council. Guess you also ignored where i invited him in...

Further more, the only real power a council has over nation members is declaring a rogue. This means nothing more than informing other councils we have made agreements with, that said rogue is not part of the agreement. Nothing more nothing less.

 

From your posts on the forum you seem to be an anti-authoritative guy that would have a problem with any kind of representative body that does not align exactly with your own views. Like that guy that thinks laws do not apply to him because the parliament that voted for it did not include a for-vote by your chosen representative. I'm sorry that's not how any of that works.

 

Of course a council is not the same as a parliament, particularly because it has no way to enforce any decisions (it is therefore by definition a voluntary obedience from anybody who does abide by decisions. Sounds very draconian to me.... /s)

 

And finally, i have no idea how your disagreement with the Swedish (?) council started or who started slinging mud first, but regarding harassment: You seem to be very antagonistic in your interactions with other people, and you are at least partly to blame for the reactions this provokes in your fellow nation members. And in general, where two fight there are two guilty parties.

Edited August 22, 2016 by Knobby

[fox2run]

Again you miss my point. I dont mind representation if it is made as an in-game mechanic that favour no group of gamers over another. These councils are just a powermongering group of players that somehow think they represent nations and put marks on other players. Its a very creepy way of rule and has to be stopped. ASAP. 

 

You have to ask yourself why you are in TS? To make in-game battle coorporation or to make alliances and rules on other players behalf? 

 

I will understand the first but not the second. Even though its the second Im up against and oppose!!!

 

That you call me anti-authorative goes in the queue of home-made psyko-analysis piling up made by your collegues. Its a sneaky weapon you use versus those who do not accept your home-made, private-council. Try to argue without getting personal. It would make your cause somewhat less doubtful.

 

Thanks.

Edited August 22, 2016 by fox2run

[Knobby]

I'm not getting personal, I'm explaining to you why your own way of acting provokes the kind of reactions they do in people. But it seems to me now that you cannot see anything wrong in your own actions and instead blame it 100% on others.

 

As for the council being private power-mongers that put a mark on others, I will explain it one last time.

The council is not private. The only requirements to join are a willingness to get involved (by actions and words, not just words) and to NOT actively undermine the council. The 'marking' as you call it is nothing more than a message to our friends, stating that you are not included in or bound by any of our agreements. Isn't that exactly what you want? To not be bound by the council's agreements?

 

And coming back to the harassment, you seem to not understand how your own attitude can influence that of others. Before this exchange in this thread I have had no dealings with you, so I have no personal stake in any discussion with you. Hell, we're not even in the same nation. I have read some of your posts in other discussions, however, and your antagonistic style of discussion has unfavorably predisposed me to you, and that is now reinforced in this thread. This is not meant as a personal attack, but again, it is something of an explanation why you receive the kind of reactions that you do. Or at the very least it contributes to it. If you act like an asshole and people call you out on it or do the same to you, that's not harassment. And just to be clear, I'm not calling you an asshole personally, I'm making a general statement here.

 

Now finally I'm considering this discussion with you as offtopic as you are not part of the Dutch nation and don't seem to get what I'm trying to tell you either on the workings of the council or on personal interactions. I will try not to get dragged into it any further.

 

I've said to Frans what I wanted to say and my offer stands. Contact me ingame and we will have a chat.

Edited August 22, 2016 by Knobby

[fox2run]

I prefer IN-GAME mechanics above any home-made, private, council. 

 

If the game-mechanics allow me to attack a ship, I should be able to do so WITHOUT any interference by other players. If the in-game-mechanics ables me to join a port battle I should be able to WITHOUT any kind of mongering by others. 

 

If YOU make YOUR OWN, PRIVATE deals like "dont attack a french ship - becourse they are our friends" or "dont join this port battle becourse you have the wrong ship or are in the wrong clan" please do only this on YOUR OWN behalf. Dont complain when other customers (byers) play the game AS IS. OUT OF THE BOX!

 

You use methods and arguments that is HIGHLY doubtfull. 

 

Play within the frame of the IN-GAME mechanics and - if you do not - let other players that do ALONE and DO NOT HARASS those.

 

But I guess, you will call them asholes indirectly too?

Edited August 22, 2016 by fox2run

[Hethwill]

Well, the game Diplomatic system was indeed introduced because the majority of players are, for sure, ignorant of most of the forum/TS meta-diplomacy.

 

In this simple truth none of us can deny it.

 

Votes decide which nations are red and which ones will be green.

 

Red can be attacked.

 

End..

[fox2run]

+1 Hethwill

 

 

It is a matter of how to interpret the frame of gaming in 'NA

 

It can be categorized in two major pools of players:

 

1) those who think the TS councils and their deals, unwritten rules etc. are the frame you have to play within 

2) those who think the in-game-mechanics is the frame you have to play within

 

I belong to the second as anything beyond mechanics is prone to bad behavior etc.

 

It is indeed very simple.

[Skully]

If YOU want to decide whether to attack a ship and do so WITHOUT any interference by other players, come join the Free Empire!

 

So I say again to all Nationals and Pirates alike, join The Free Empire! Fight to the death for your rightfull freedom!

Joining is free! http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/14574-curing-the-black-plague-bug/

And we have (almost free) Medkits.

[fox2run]

If YOU want to decide whether to attack a ship and do so WITHOUT any interference by other players, come join the Free Empire!

 

 

Out nation is glorius and I will never be a pirate. Only thing is that we have a council of TSers that disturb normal players. :-p

[fransgelden]

Hello Frans,

I would like to tell you a little about how the Dutch council works.

Currently all clans that are active in PvP are welcome to have a representative on the council, and will have 1 vote in all decisions the council votes on. Why only active PvP clans? Well, because those are the ones who will do the vast majority of the fighting. Please note that there is nobody taking notes on how often members of clans participate in organized PvP, and there is currently no minimum member criteria for joining the council.

The only other requisite is that all clans represented in the council abide by the council decisions, which are decided by majority vote, regardless of the individual clans vote.

I'm sure you will agree that this is only fair, any system where individual clans are not bound by the majority just because they voted against it is pointless. A president is president of the whole country, not just of the ppl who voted for him.

People like fox2run paint councils (disclaimer: I have no idea how other nations councils are organized) as some kind of tyranny by the 1%, while in fact before the ingame voting mechanic they were the closest thing to democratic representation possible in the game as it was.

Now with the new voting mechanic, the council will have to reevaluate its role. But I will state that a council will still be necessary. You can't have organized PvP without an organizing body, and a disorganized nation will always be beaten by an organized one.

Regarding your clan being declared rogue: this only means that our allies are informed that your members cannot be expected to honor any agreements between our nations, and that our allies need not do so either.

Before the alliance patch this meant that they should expect to be attacked by you, and conversely could also attack you. (With the alliance mechanic this is now no longer possible). Nothing is stopping you from contacting those nations and making your own agreements however.

Regarding the nation TS: in principle all Dutch clans are welcome on the national TS, free of charge, I might add. However, when a clan is actively disregarding (this is what rogue means) the council policy, and I will remind you again they represent the majority of the nation's PvP work force, they are no longer welcome.

The reason for this is a concern for espionage, as we have experienced this in the past. For example the FDM clan is declared rogue, and not welcome on the national TS. This is a clan of known enemy alts, with the sole purpose of stirring up trouble between us and our allies, and acting as spies for their pirate friends ganking in our waters.

Now this might not the case with your clan, as you have been a known Dutch player for a long time and have contributed in the past, but you can understand the difficulty in ascertaining these things and the only reasonably effective measure is a blanket policy.

Regarding your fear of a ban: I can only say you have nothing to fear, they have no kind of pull with the devs whatsoever. And I'm amazed at the powers you seem to ascribe to the council, like it's some form of Illuminati.

As I was not part of any discussion with, or regarding, you, I can only guess as to what happend. But I suspect you wanted to attack one of the Antilles-treaty members this weekend and were told not to. The reason for this is that the treaty stated that it would be in effect until the Monday after the Diplo patch, and the Dutch nation is concerned about keeping it's word.

As of today's maintenance, the Antilles-treaty is no longer in effect, and you are free to attack the nations the game allows you to.

And as I have now written a whole wall of text on my phone I will end with an offer: If you, after reading my thesis about the Dutch council, want to make a fresh start I am willing to speak to the council on your behalf. Provided ofcourse that you and your clan after taking your seat and vote on the council will abide by the majority decisions regardless of your individual vote on matters.

Regards, Bout bij Nacht

 

Thanks for the feedback regarding the council and I appreciate for the effort you put in to state the reason why the council and clans act like they do. I'll reconsider the proposal, because the Antilles treaty is now disbanded and it was this very treaty that made me angry and came up to arms in nation chat on the contradiction of the treaty and the politics set out in-game with the war. I personally don't have anything against the members of the council, but they didn't approached me the same way you did when I started to question the treaty and authority of the council. The council members threatened me and was very rude and sweared on me, and it was unpleasant to continue my efforts in the clan I was present. I had to leave to prevent any other problems and relationship becoming sour and had to start my own clan.

 

Regarding to TS, the way I was handled was atrocious. I was plentiful times on the particular TS server with the old clan I was in. When I joined yesterday in the defense of our nation, I was kicked of the server without any reason or discussion. A server which "welcomes everyone" is a very misleading term when people getting kicked out if they don't recognize the council. I had to complain multiple times in nation chat before I could rejoin the TS server to assist in the defense of our nation. Seems the moderators doesn't know how to handle such situation at all.

 

I then openly stated I don't recognize the council anymore, NOT against, due the Antilles treaty, but other players mocked me and become derogatory towards me and this is what fox2run is about. That emotional and verbal attacks, which constitutes to harassment, made the nation very toxic for me and the game unpleasant. I clearly stated that I only recognize the alliances set out by the game mechanics and I'll accept treaties regards to neutral nations. But I don't accept any treaties which is contradictory to the Alliance mechanic or etc.

 

+1 Hethwill

 

 

It is a matter of how to interpret the frame of gaming in 'NA

 

It can be categorized in two major pools of players:

 

1) those who think the TS councils and their deals, unwritten rules etc. are the frame you have to play within 

2) those who think the in-game-mechanics is the frame you have to play within

 

I belong to the second as anything beyond mechanics is prone to bad behavior etc.

 

It is indeed very simple.

 

I prefer IN-GAME mechanics above any home-made, private, council. 

 

If the game-mechanics allow me to attack a ship, I should be able to do so WITHOUT any interference by other players. If the in-game-mechanics ables me to join a port battle I should be able to WITHOUT any kind of mongering by others. 

 

Play within the frame of the IN-GAME mechanics and - if you do not - let other players that do ALONE and DO NOT HARASS those.

 

 You understand my situation perfectly well and this is the reason why I'm on this forum today. The council is influencing people in such a way they start mongering against other players who don't want to be part of the high council. They don't openly do it, but in a very subtle way.

 

[Hethwill]

Mind you I am not taking sides, I am a very social player.

I simply look at the mechanics as they are and how they related to both social and not so social players.

 

Red = enemy. Votes take care of that. So no point in going paranoid that councils make sure that people voted blah blah blah or else this will never end

[fox2run]

Indeed Hethwill - but power is hard to let go...  Som clans have not yet understood this, it seems...

[Mrdoomed]

Progress report:

It seems for every endeavour, a person has to pay the price. After leaving and created my own clan which expressed clearly we don't recognize the high council, we literally being left in the dust.

Comments in the nation chat became mocking and derogatory towards us. We were kicked from the nation teamspeak, who invites everyone, but not us. I'm still looking for a teamspeak server and considering various options.

Now we are regarded as "rogue", just because we don't honour treaties which is in clear contradiction to the national vote to go to war with said nations.

At the moment, my clan is growing with new players and old members who got fed up with the other clans and council, but its an emotional drain to play this game when I have to defend my reasons while being mocked and insulted by others players.

The council did a great job at brainwashing the majority of other players on the matter of you part of the council, or you out.

I commend you for sticking to your guns , and declaring your independence from an oppressive king but dont sully it for comming here and cryinf that you got exactly what you ask for or you will start to sound like fox2run lol.

You wanted the sheets for your bed, you bought those sheets, and you made your bed. Now do something. This is what you wanted. Now those that followed YOU ( ironic isn't it) are looking to you fkr teamspeak, a plan and results.

This is your time to shine or to be a whiny footnote. Now the decision is yours.

Just dont get like fox2run.

[fox2run]

I commend you for sticking to your guns , and declaring your independence from an oppressive king but dont sully it for comming here and cryinf that you got exactly what you ask for or you will start to sound like fox2run lol.

You wanted the sheets for your bed, you bought those sheets, and you made your bed. Now do something. This is what you wanted. Now those that followed YOU ( ironic isn't it) are looking to you fkr teamspeak, a plan and results.

This is your time to shine or to be a whiny footnote. Now the decision is yours.

Just dont get like fox2run.

 

"Just dont get like fox2run"

 

well... actually i have a nice clan with some nice people, I enjoy my game and attack the ones I like to attack. Apart from those I cannot due to game-mechanics of course.... but thats about it... every time Im on nation chat I get bashed, but I guess thats the price of arguing against some of the big clans... I dont insult others but I can say for sure that its not like that the other way around. Personal attacks - like the one above - is pretty common... apart from that, I didnt let meself bow to group-pressure. I hope that more of you outthere do have an independant voice and dare to use it!

 

kind regards