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Beaching a ship during a battle

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I have seen multiple instances where a player will intentionally "beach" themselves to protect one side of their ship or to make it awkward to board them.  Not to jump on the hysterical historical train, but intentionally sailing your ship to shore is grossly unrealistic and should of course result in a ship wreck.  Is there any plan to implement this?

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It would be a wise idea to implement ship speed/acceleration decrease when ship hull touches shallows close to the land. This will result is ship performance drop and will aid another player who is away from the land.

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Well careening is quite a different thing from running around at full sail which is more like what is happening in game. The way to change this is to implement damage for doing it. Historically ( I know the OP doesn't like too much history but I am going there) a ship running around could suffer significant damage to both hull and rigging from the initial impact and also from the subsequent battering of the waves. There is the example of the USS President  running up on a sandbar coming out of NY harbor in 1815. She damaged her keel and sprung the mainmast and was subsequently caught by the pursuing British squadron.

 

Now more apropos to the beaching issue, there were a number of occasions during Lord Cochrane's raids on the French coast when the French crews did deliberately run their ships on the beach preferring to wreck the ship and salvage later to avoid capture. Once beached these ships were out of action and certainly not firing back.

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( I know the OP doesn't like too much history but I am going there)

I have a degree in history and it is a hobby.

A military background.

I have read all of the O'Brien novels multiple times.

I miniature game.

But the "historical" arguments some people offer to justify some specific mechanic are hysterical. This is a game and can only approximate the visuals and basic tactics of 18th warfare.

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Jerome. Beaching a ship as a means of escape was not uncommon at all. I am reading Thomas Cochrane's biography at the moment and every second page almost is a french corvette or other ship beaching itself to stop him from capturing them. Cochrane's response is almost always to send a shore party and re-float the vessel to capture it if possible. Most of the time the French crew abandon the vessel when this happens or he is prevented by shore batteries and troops from doing so.

Another thing not implemented in game that is similar is fleets anchoring themselves to have the protection of the land at their rear. The battle of the nile being a good example of this.

 

Now the fact that cochrane re-floats vessels so commonly to capture and remove them back to england gives you an idea of the fact that it was possible to beach a vessel without doing too much damage as long as you did not blatantly run them into rocks but rather sand.

 

So the tactic is not that far fetched in this game. But the fact that one can beach and then freely manoever afterwards without re-floating and sustaining some damage is a little silly.

 

An example, but not a great one. I can give plenty more from Cochranes actual biography if you want:

"Under cover of night, Cochrane sent flaming ships riding a swift incoming current into the crowded harbor. The result was complete panic. A host of French vessels caught fire, while others weighed anchor in hopes of drifting out of danger in the flame-lit darkness. The current, however, was against them. Dawn showed nearly every ship in the French fleet helplessly grounded, ripe for destruction by Gambier’s fleet, stationed offshore. Cochrane signaled his superior to bring the big British ships in for the kill.

They never made it. Gambier considered the fleet already destroyed (though the now-incredulous French could be seen refloating some of the grounded ships) and refused to risk his fleet on Cochrane’s word. Stunned by this inaction, Cochrane attacked the French by himself, matching Imperieuse’s 38-guns against three of the big ships of the line, taking them all on at once. Gambier finally sent frigates to Cochrane’s aid and together they finished off the three ships. Amazingly, Gambier recalled the little fleet the next morning, leaving a frustrated Cochrane to go after the French flagship on his own. In the end, four ships were destroyed, others crippled, and the threatening fleet scattered, leaving the enemy demoralized."

 

http://www.soundingsonline.com/features/in-depth/244472-the-real-jack-aubrey

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The tactic is beyond stupid when it involves still engaging with the broadsides and in many cases floating back Off the beach during the fight..  

 

  One thing is game needs is more Reefs in and around the beaches... and they should do bad bad things to ships that hit them

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Running close to the shore to prevent being raked or engaged on both sides was a historical tactic used repeatedly. In real life it was somewhat risky but still used on many occasions. Beaching during a fight is of course another matter.

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Running close to the shore to prevent being raked or engaged on both sides was a historical tactic used repeatedly. In real life it was somewhat risky but still used on many occasions. Beaching during a fight is of course another matter.

 

They would never do it if it was a lee shore.

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Damage to the ship should be greatly dependent on the speed the ship is travelling at which it makes contact with the ground.   A ship going 10+kns should do some damage when it hits the ground.   But a ship moving slowly like 5 or less knots shouldn't do much to it, as it wasn't uncommon to beech a ship just to perform routine maintenance.

 

Yes, on random shores in the middle of combat...

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I have a degree in history and it is a hobby. Same here.

 

A military background. - Same.

I have read all of the O'Brien novels multiple times. - Me too.

I miniature game. - Historical? I do as well.

But the "historical" arguments some people offer to justify some specific mechanic are hysterical. This is a game and can only approximate the visuals and basic tactics of 18th warfare.

 

Judging from the vociferous way you have attacked the people posting "historical" accuracy arguments in multiple threads I thought you were from the pew-pew WOT arena/arcade game crowd. Whew glad  that's cleared up.

 

So given your background let me ask then don't you want to see a reasonably accurate simulation of naval combat in the age of sail? (just talking about battle instances here not OW).

 

With the computer modeling sailing characteristics and ballistics you can simulate a number of the aspects of  18th century naval warfare reasonably accurately. I have an old DOS program used for miniatures age of sail games that is a true sailing simulator for example.

 

I am also coming at this game from a sailors perspective having sailing on a square rigged tall ship among other vessels. Hence my comment in this thread which actually supported your concern - that is beaching a ship should have consequences in damage or just plain getting stuck! That would also be an accurate and realistic effect. See Destraex's post.

 

You are right there are many concessions because this is a game and players running aground without damages and being able to turn around and sail away is one of them. Sailing closer than 60 degrees into the wind is another. That doesn't mean we have to throw out any notion that we can have a reasonably accurate simulation in all aspects of the game though.

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Judging from the vociferous way you have attacked the people posting "historical" accuracy arguments in multiple threads I thought you were from the pew-pew WOT arena/arcade game crowd. Whew glad that's cleared up.

So given your background let me ask then don't you want to see a reasonably accurate simulation of naval combat in the age of sail? (just talking about battle instances here not OW).

With the computer modeling sailing characteristics and ballistics you can simulate a number of the aspects of 18th century naval warfare reasonably accurately. I have an old DOS program used for miniatures age of sail games that is a true sailing simulator for example.

I am also coming at this game from a sailors perspective having sailing on a square rigged tall ship among other vessels. Hence my comment in this thread which actually supported your concern - that is beaching a ship should have consequences in damage or just plain getting stuck! That would also be an accurate and realistic effect. See Destraex's post.

You are right there are many concessions because this is a game and players running aground without damages and being able to turn around and sail away is one of them. Sailing closer than 60 degrees into the wind is another. That doesn't mean we have to throw out any notion that we can have a reasonably accurate simulation in all aspects of the game though.

I don't disagree here.

I do have a problem with people complaining about very specific "can never happen" or when they simply focus on doing away with a tactic via mechanics simply because it does not suit there play style.

Cheers.

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They would never do it if it was a lee shore.

 

In RL they'd find it hard to do if it wasn't a lee shore

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In RL they'd find it hard to do if it wasn't a lee shore

Lol correct how funny would the game be if we had leeway?

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Damage to the ship should be greatly dependent on the speed the ship is travelling at which it makes contact with the ground.   A ship going 10+kns should do some damage when it hits the ground.   But a ship moving slowly like 5 or less knots shouldn't do much to it, as it wasn't uncommon to beech a ship just to perform routine maintenance.

 

 True but doing it on purpose to work on things was done on minimum sail.. all Full sail...  Even at 2-3 knots a ship under full sail suddenly Stopping could lose a mast from the sudden strain on the rigging.. That doesnt even consider the hull damage

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They would never do it if it was a lee shore.

 

Never is always a dangerous thing to say and almost always wrong. Running a lee shore is dangerous but was done when captains were desperate, perhaps not wisely or safely but still done on occasion.

 

There is no mechanic to simulate a lee shore at present, ships in game point better than they did in real life as well. I would hope they introduce the effect of onshore winds as well as the more pronounced effects of currents which very often had much greater effect on sailing ships than the wind did. A better simulation of sailing and the effects of piling up on shore would be great, I don't think it will happen though.

 

There are several instance of ships attempting to escape along a lee shore and at least one where a British fleet engaged along a lee shore.

 

ie Hawke in 1759 near Belle island " On the 20th November 1759, in heavy squalls, the French fleet was sighted inshore of the Belle Isle. It was not till the late afternoon that the engagement began, in Hawke's decision to persevere with the attack on a dangerous lee shore, in volatile weather and with night rapidly approaching, was a shrewd and subtle tactical decision: he put the inexperienced French sailors under extreme pressure, backing his blockade-hardened squadron to cope to a much greater degree with the appalling conditions. Hawked turn the battle into a seamanship contest that he knew he would win."

 

Thomas Cochrane cites French frigates hugging the shore to escape his ships in the channel. 

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I have seen multiple instances where a player will intentionally "beach" themselves to protect one side of their ship or to make it awkward to board them.  Not to jump on the hysterical historical train, but intentionally sailing your ship to shore is grossly unrealistic and should of course result in a ship wreck.  Is there any plan to implement this?

 

Aye Pagan Pete has complained about this as well!

 

You beach, you die. period! that is wot happened in battle if you beached!

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http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/15270-pvp1-june-16th-a-victory-at-belize/

I was actually heading to the beach while I was sinking. And that should be the one and only reason to beach.

Beach, (forced) surrender, lose ship (to the other party), safe crew and officer.

Edited by Skully

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They would never do it if it was a lee shore.

What does a less shore have to do with it?

A lee shore becomes a weather shore as soon as the wind changes. If you can ground yourself safely, it doesn't matter which way the wind is blowing.

Doing it at high tide is what's really inadvisable.

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I was in combat with an AI LGV with my Belle Poule.  The LGV kept very close to the shore and I beached trying to board them - the next thing I know the ship is on its side and the guns are pointing into the sky...  not good.  No refloating for sure...  I was able to exit after the LGV sailed away.

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What does a less shore have to do with it?

A lee shore becomes a weather shore as soon as the wind changes. If you can ground yourself safely, it doesn't matter which way the wind is blowing.

Doing it at high tide is what's really inadvisable.

Most shores in the world are unsuitable for beaching. In ships that make leeway, a lee shore was a navigation hazard to say the least.

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