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Bach

Privateer needs a bow gun

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Then get us the Spanish Lugger version and scrap the waste of pixel topsail schooner if that will make you feel better. I still think any Privateer that was forced to chase an exact same ship design and tag it with a shot every 60 sec would have figured out a way to mounted a bow gun.

Edited by Bach

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They won't do distance keeps vessels in because they say it will be exploited by griefers.  That has been discussed to death already.  Everyone is for it except the developers and some of the moderators.  So if you can come up with a better solution that doesn't involve automatic distance and requires a cannon, please do so.

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Then get us the Spanish Lugger version and scrap the waste of pixel topsail schooner if that will make you feel better. I still think any Privateer that was forced to chase an exact same ship design and tag it with a shot every 60 sec would have figured out a way to mounted a bow gun.

Lol you would think right lmao.

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They won't do distance keeps vessels in because they say it will be exploited by griefers.  That has been discussed to death already.  Everyone is for it except the developers and some of the moderators.  So if you can come up with a better solution that doesn't involve automatic distance and requires a cannon, please do so.

The easiest solution is to just slow down or reduce the characteristic on the cargo Lynx and possibly slightly improve the downwind on the Priv. Assuming a bow gun is out of the question. I like the suggestion that a cargo ship hauling 100tons of cargo no longer accelerates, decelerates or turns that mass back and forth thru the wind in seconds.

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^^

 

that is probably the best. Add mass of cargo.

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The easiest solution is to just slow down or reduce the characteristic on the cargo Lynx and possibly slightly improve the downwind on the Priv. Assuming a bow gun is out of the question. I like the suggestion that a cargo ship hauling 100tons of cargo no longer accelerates, decelerates or turns that mass back and forth thru the wind in seconds.

Why? cargo ships were designed to sail best at full load... it was how they were built.. now to be true to life a cargo ship running empty should sail like crap.  But then none of our ships should accelerate and decel and turn the way they do... it is all fantasy

Edited by CaptVonGunn

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^^

 

that is probably the best. Add mass of cargo.

 

As the speed of traders was already previously nerfed, the nerf should be removed if cargo mass is added.

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As the speed of traders was already previously nerfed, the nerf should be removed if cargo mass is added.

 

Sure.

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Why? cargo ships were designed to sail best at full load... it was how they were built.. now to be true to life a cargo ship running empty should sail like crap.  But then none of our ships should accelerate and decel and turn the way they do... it is all fantasy

Cargo adds mass. Mass adds draft. Draft adds drag and friction. The characteristics of heal and perhaps sail area aloft may improve under load for ships designed to haul cargo. But they don't become racing boats. Indiamen didn't hang in pace with lighter load Clipper ships. The clippers had to increase sail area, slim down beam and carry lighter loads to be fast.

The speed of two silimiar ship design the one under the heavier load and draft will be slower. Meaning, once the Topsail Cargo Lynx has loaded more weight than the guns+Crew of the Privateer Lynx it should become the slower of the two boats. Further the heavier mass moving in direction A will not shift to moving in direction B without an increased amount of force than the lighter mass making the same vector shift. This heavier mass will also require more force exerted on it to match the acceleration curve of a lighter mass making the same vector and speed changes. Meaning, a heavier cargo Lynx would not swing it's mass across the wind as fast as a lighter Privateer Lynx. But in NA cargo has no mass in the performance curves.

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Cargo adds mass. Mass adds draft. Draft adds drag and friction. The characteristics of heal and perhaps sail area aloft may improve under load for ships designed to haul cargo. But they don't become racing boats. Indiamen didn't hang in pace with lighter load Clipper ships. The clippers had to increase sail area, slim down beam and carry lighter loads to be fast.

The speed of two silimiar ship design the one under the heavier load and draft will be slower. Meaning, once the Topsail Cargo Lynx has loaded more weight than the guns+Crew of the Privateer Lynx it should become the slower of the two boats. Further the heavier mass moving in direction A will not shift to moving in direction B without an increased amount of force than the lighter mass making the same vector shift. This heavier mass will also require more force exerted on it to match the acceleration curve of a lighter mass making the same vector and speed changes. Meaning, a heavier cargo Lynx would not swing it's mass across the wind as fast as a lighter Privateer Lynx. But in NA cargo has no mass in the performance curves.

 

Speaking from how things work in reality, what he is getting at is that added weight does not necessarily equal less speed. Speed comes from sail area, wind angle, and hull form. Purpose built sea-going merchant ships tended to be tubbier than warships (hull form), but both would carry enough ballast in addition to cargo or stores to put them at their loaded draft.

 

If a topsail schooner was being used as a cargo hauler (and they were popular as coasters in North America) and built identically to one being used as a privateer, the difference in loaded weight would be negligible to the ship's performance at sea. The merchant would be carrying goods, stores for a relatively short sail up or down the coast, plus any necessary ballast in the hold. The privateer-fitted topsail schooner would be carrying guns, provisions for a much longer time at sea to maximize chances of finding and capturing enemy merchants, with the necessary ballast to put it at the proper draft to keep it seaworthy.

 

The reason for the difficulty using the privateer/lynx for their intended purpose in game primarily comes from the gamier bit of the simulation, which requires a cannon hit to keep the opponent in battle. In reality, a topsail schooner would have far more time to exercise its speed at any angle other than straight downwind to close with its prey. To help it out, I'm all for giving it an invisible "chaser". Call it a swivel gun and give it half the range of a normal gun, since after all the Lynx did carry swivel guns in addition to her broadside armament. Hopefully any future schooner additions would have a single forward 6-12pd chaser (this was a common thing in American navy schooners during the War of 1812).

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Cargo adds mass. Mass adds draft. Draft adds drag and friction. The characteristics of heal and perhaps sail area aloft may improve under load for ships designed to haul cargo. But they don't become racing boats. Indiamen didn't hang in pace with lighter load Clipper ships. The clippers had to increase sail area, slim down beam and carry lighter loads to be fast.

The speed of two silimiar ship design the one under the heavier load and draft will be slower. Meaning, once the Topsail Cargo Lynx has loaded more weight than the guns+Crew of the Privateer Lynx it should become the slower of the two boats. Further the heavier mass moving in direction A will not shift to moving in direction B without an increased amount of force than the lighter mass making the same vector shift. This heavier mass will also require more force exerted on it to match the acceleration curve of a lighter mass making the same vector and speed changes. Meaning, a heavier cargo Lynx would not swing it's mass across the wind as fast as a lighter Privateer Lynx. But in NA cargo has no mass in the performance curves. 

If it was always this simple, any idiot could be a naval architect without any education or experience.

 

Cargo adds mass. Mass adds draft. Draft adds drag and friction.

This is a rule of thumb. CaptVonGunn is nearer the mark.

 

Ships are designed with a certain displacement in mind. For warships and merchant ships, this ideal displacement is usually when they are loaded down with stores and cargo.

 

An empty merchantman with minimal displacement is unlikely to sail better. Without added ballast, the ship will be dangerously unstable. The ship will be crank, leewardly and might have difficulty steering. For many ships, the unloaded displacement will not be the fastest displacement.

 

Of course, almost all ships can be overloaded, and this will cause all the same problems as an empty hold. For merchantmen, overloading is economical, so a stuffed-full ship should not be a fast one.

 

So in terms of speed vs. capacity, there is a happy medium. The game shouldn't apply penalties for ships with holds that are only 50-70% full. 

 

Robert Gardiner on the Lively-class:

Given the Royal Navy's penchant for long cruises, it was a real advantage that they sailed best deep laden; in fact, the only criticism was that they did not sail so well in light conditions or when they themselves were light, but this later problem was dealt with by taking on seawater after abour three weeks at sea...

In other words, exact same hull and rig, but the lighter ship sails slower.
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We're talking about two ships of the same design. One for cargo hauling and one supposedly set up by intelligent men intent on privateering the cargo version of the same ship. Regardless of the "design draft" if privateers were always slower than their intended prey there wouldn't have been any point in history to have had them. They would have been recorded as some of the dumbest ideas our fore fathers ever had and John Paul Jones would have been a joke of a captain. That isn't how it went. Men knowing both ship designs and capabilities converted and out fitted the privateers. IF they needed more weight to go faster it would be put on. IF they needed a bow gun it would have been put on. A privateer that can't catch a merchant ship is worthless. Much like the privateer ship we have in NA. Theorize reality and design all you like. As long as we still have to hit the other ship with a gun every 60sec the NA privateer design is worthless.

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We're talking about two ships of the same design. One for cargo hauling and one supposedly set up by intelligent men intent on privateering the cargo version of the same ship. Regardless of the "design draft" if privateers were always slower than their intended prey there wouldn't have been any point in history to have had them. They would have been recorded as some of the dumbest ideas our fore fathers ever had and John Paul Jones would have been a joke of a captain. That isn't how it went. Men knowing both ship designs and capabilities converted and out fitted the privateers. IF they needed more weight to go faster it would be put on. IF they needed a bow gun it would have been put on. A privateer that can't catch a merchant ship is worthless. Much like the privateer ship we have in NA. Theorize reality and design all you like. As long as we still have to hit the other ship with a gun every 60sec the NA privateer design is worthless.

I tend to agree. As much as i love the privateer its usless againsts even a halfway decent player in a merchant ship. This was made even worse by starting with guns not loaded. All any captain has to do is just turn away while the privy loads and then just wait long enough to repair sails since the privy has to keep turning away and poof youre gone.

Against an unskilled captain or one who panics it can work but i gave up trying to be effective in it....the tag or lose system just makes that bow gun to important.

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We're talking about two ships of the same design. 

Read the last sentence of my post. I gave an example of the very same ship which sailed faster when loaded with more stores.

 

Naturally, a sharp smuggling schooner would likely be happiest with a light, valuable cargo. Compared to a heavy frigates with good seakeeping qualities, the ideal displacement would be attained with a relatively unencumbered hold. But if you took the same vessel privateering, you would want to ballast it down to a similar displacement.

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We have no wind strengths to play with.

 

Many schooners and brigs and corvettes were caught up by bigger ships because of that.

 

Sadly... :( ... we do not have variation yet.

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A lugger is a completely different vessel from a topsail schooner, and in any case, every vessel that is designed or evolved is built for a purpose. The privateer and lynx were not built for bow guns. Since more boats are being added, maybe some of them will. The rattlesnake has bow guns, and the snow has bow guns. Why don't you build an exceptionally fast one of those and then copper plate and speed trim? Welcome to the world of boat and ship design and building. What would you like the boat to do?

But we are in a historical simulation, and the solutions we are presented are the solutions that very able people were able to come up with based on the available materials and skill sets of the Era. Live with it, it's awesome. And within those narrow material limits they were able to do so much. The crew's of the ship's of those days made them work, or they didn't survive to be recorded. Some of the boats taken from Chapman's Mercatoria were essentially the ships captured by the British Navy that the Admiralty thought worthy of measuring and drawing in order to further the science, fast flyers, great sea boats, etc. the ones that make it into the history books are for the most part the successful boats.

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A lugger is a completely different vessel from a topsail schooner, and in any case, every vessel that is designed or evolved is built for a purpose. The privateer and lynx were not built for bow guns. Since more boats are being added, maybe some of them will. The rattlesnake has bow guns, and the snow has bow guns. Why don't you build an exceptionally fast one of those and then copper plate and speed trim? Welcome to the world of boat and ship design and building. What would you like the boat to do?

But we are in a historical simulation, and the solutions we are presented are the solutions that very able people were able to come up with based on the available materials and skill sets of the Era. Live with it, it's awesome. And within those narrow material limits they were able to do so much. The crew's of the ship's of those days made them work, or they didn't survive to be recorded. Some of the boats taken from Chapman's Mercatoria were essentially the ships captured by the British Navy that the Admiralty thought worthy of measuring and drawing in order to further the science, fast flyers, great sea boats, etc. the ones that make it into the history books are for the most part the successful boats.

 

The problem is, the leave mechanics of the game make many ships without bow chasers almost worthless.  It has nothing to do with ship design but everything to do with slower vessels leaving battle when a faster one is catching up because the faster vessel has to turn to shoot to keep the slower vessel in combat.

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