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PvP Rewards - feedback needed


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considering that this game has no fair pvp battles like 1vs1,2vs2 etc in my oppinion a surrender option is essential.. i would go even further and just instantly let end all battles with a battlerating worse than 5:1 . it seems that very many players enjoy the ganking game as long as they are in the bigger grp ...but obviously noone enjoys being shot to pices by 5 or more opponents .

in case that the usual huntgrp finds a victim they would have just to tag him in ow and once thats accompished there is no battle necessary ..just give it a resultscreen like "u have been ganked lost your ship -go back to port"

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What about officer's life removed and getting rid of this annoyance to bring pvp back to life and not only surrender matches awarding nothing like now ? Sinking ships is still profitable, getting opponents going into surrender brings nothing, and why do they surrender ? Mostly to spare the officer ...

 

It takes insane grind to get an officer fully leveled up, the advantages officers gives us are often better than cumulated gold upgrades on ships, right now with surrendering meta to spare officers the pvp rewards became meaningless already compared to free risk pve, getting no xp and no gold when surrendering after having put a nice fight will create a even bigger gap between advanced players able to grind quickly the officer's using Sol's in pve and the rest of the players not being rear admiral's able to do this... If you still find some pvp after such changes ...

 

It needs around 35k XP made in game to get an officer fully leveled up, the same xp needed to pass from Master & commander to post captain and then Flag captain ... Way too much grind for a limited life's officer, way too bigger gap between end game players able to grind this rather quickly and others struggling to progress in game ...

 

Do you really want to bring less pvp in the game ? Limiting players into safe PVE only ? Reducing pvp rewards if surrendering or loosing officer's if not done, and also speaking about limiting ships dura's killing simply the crafting market already in bad shape since last patch due to free ships all around and npc ships costing almost nothing for 5 dura's and mass used by some as throw out cheap ships ?? Get rid of NPC 5 dura's ships to start with or make them prices realistic for once, a 4 dura basic connie cost twice less to buy at NPC shop than it cost to craft with mats at npc default price + 100 gold added per labour hour for parts and ship itself, no wonder why some only use basic npc ships, current npc shop price is almost the same as materials cost at npc price only   ... leave the rest as it is 

 

Please think twice about all this, loosing and affording new crew is one thing that many will accept and deal with, grinding for ages to loose officers in a blink or make no xp or gold in pvp to spare them is something that will kill this game ... It is already slowly killing pvp with surrenders. And also right now the crew is just a money sink since we don't need to return to ports and can load infinite med kits or use helicopter deliveries at seas to get new crew ... limit the number of med and repair kits possible, force players to return to a National port to get more crew each few matches ... http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/15025-99-feedback-poll/page-7#entry281849

 

 

I'm sorry but i don't see where all this is aiming right now, game wasn't too bad before crew and officer's addition, pvp was rewarding , way more than pve, now it's surrender left and right, not much for the crew loss but for officer's that take way too much grind and bring a lot of advantages, people have free ships, crafting market is gone down the toilet beside non captured-able ships ... Dura's are fine, it takes day's to build your ships and you can be ganked multiples times in a day and loose all quickly ... i don't see an issue with Dura's, no issues with upgrades as they are ... i don't see what this is trying to achieve beside pushing away players.

 

Simply get rid of officer's limited life's to make pvp worth it again, there will be way less surrender if it's only to spare the crew and rewards will be nice again in pvp ... then yeah give no xp and gold if you surrender and don't allow surrender if ship have more than 15-20% water on it or else ... but unless you want to kill the pvp in this game, i speak of pvp not 7 guys against a single frigate that you will encourage even more doing what is enumerated, then go for the changes you proposed and let's speak of pve only in a month after changes ... 

 

Main problem is officer's eternal grind , big imbalance it creates between advanced players able to do pve with Sol's and others needing to do 35 missions in 4th rates to get a competent officer, or double this number of missions in a frigate ...  And the most funny is to come if we get more than one officer possible ... I don't give a single damn about my crew if lost or not, i do care only about officer and the great advantage it gives, like many others i won't keep grinding my butt for this just to loose it in a blink, pvp is already not interesting with mass surrendering to spare the officer, it brings nothing as reward compared to pve now, get rid of officer limited life's it will balance all this with a simple solution and make pvp enjoyable to do and rewarding to do again, not only a surrendering pvp matches like it is now that bring nothing as reward...  http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/15251-add-abandon-ship-as-well-asor-surrender/#entry282665

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Why do players choose to fight and then just before they are about to sink surrenders?

To save officer and crew. That's all there is to it.

If you want to modify surrenders then I choose option 2. Let them make the choice in the first 5min and then stick with it.

However, add in that surrenders after 5min are still possible but must be accepted by the opponent. This way players can surrender out if a gank using option #2 in the first 5min. But they can only surrender afterwards, to save officer and crew, with the opponents agreement they deserve it. Perhaps include 100 gold per head of crew removed from surrendering players purse and divided up amoung the opponents.

Pvp rewards- as long as captured ships can be teleported back to port full of guns I don't see any reason to change the rewards. This task is to easy as it is. If ships have to be sailed back to port the rewards for such action should be increased significantly.

Edited by Bach
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You should still get rewards if you surrender.

 

Otherwise for sinking:

 

If the fire gets out of control and is huge, your ship automatically surrenders and all crew attempt to put the fire out.

 

In any other case that you surrender, you CAN surrender even if your ship is sinking and all your crew stops what they are doing and attempts to stop the ship from sinking.  This gives a bonus to pumping water out and patching leaks, but there is still a chance that the ship will sink.  Surrendering takes 1 minute before the ship surrenders and the bonuses against sinking apply.

 

 

As for rewards to enemies when you surrender.   Reward equals kill reward * damage percent of your ships' total HP, including sails and hull and crew.  So if I am in a 1v1 and I surrender when I took 95% total damage to my hull, sails and crew, my enemy would get 95% of the kill reward.  If I am in a 1v5 and I surrender and I only took 50% damage, those who damaged me would get that % of kill reward for which they caused.

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Definitely would like to see rewards tied to the BR ratio of the Battle. If you are the underdog you have a higher incentive to fight against longer odds. I would not punish the folks with the higher BR, not their fault for being in a group, but I would do something to encourage people who might have a numerical or ship disadvantage to fight. Maybe that is thru more gold or xp or loot drops or something.

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I would love to see a mechanism where my surrender is handled by the opponent. When I surrender the opponent gets a small reward in XP, crew and money and I get a small penalty in money, but preserve most of my crew.

 

You could make it so the surrender is offered to the captain that dit the most damage to you or is the closest you and put a small timer ot accept or even better have an option in the settings to autoaccept surrenders, like I would do.

 

Furthermore I'd like to see PvP rewards be less built on Portbattles. 

I really think when I surrender that what happens to my ship, my crew, and my officers is chosen not by me, but by  the winner. He should be able to choose options like:

1. Kill all crew and officers, loot hold and scuttle ship

2. Kill all crew, release officers, loot hold, scuttle ship

3. Kill all crew, release officers, loot hold and keep ship

4. etc, etc all the difference variations of this

 

 

Definitely would like to see rewards tied to the BR ratio of the Battle. If you are the underdog you have a higher incentive to fight against longer odds. I would not punish the folks with the higher BR, not their fault for being in a group, but I would do something to encourage people who might have a numerical or ship disadvantage to fight. Maybe that is thru more gold or xp or loot drops or something.

Yes indeed! I should get a ton of XP for using my Rattler and wrecking a Connie. And should the Connie beat my rattler, he would get very little XP because..welll.. duh 

Edited by Cpt Blackthorne
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Isn't flooding the best possible reason to surrender? Do you forbid use of seatbelts once people drive faster than 50 mph?

Watching from the sidelines, it seems that pvp competitiveness has gotten in the way of common sense here.

Surrenders should be a powerfull buff to pumps, and prevent further damage. If you STILL sink, you lose crew and officers.

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We wanted  to test 1 dura option since Feb

but we know it could cause a huge review fallout so it should be done paired with something awesome.

 

How about all ships have 1 durability, but you can take out an insurance policy on your ship?

 

As far as what to do about Surrendering ships, how about as soon as you surrender, the crew of the ship that surrendered is forced to go into full survival mode to keep the ship afloat.  Pump works 2x as fast, the crew starts to repair the ships hull for 2 minutes, and you cannot leave the battle for 2 minutes after surrendering.  This way the prize of the ship and all its contents is kept in tact for the victors.  

 

People should not be blocked from surrendering because the ship is sinking or on fire.  If you were on a ship that was sinking in real life, the captain would surrender before letting his ship sink.

 

Also, another thing you can do is add 20% of the crew from the surrendered ship to the winning side split between all the winners.  The guy who surrenders loses 20% of his crew (losing 20% of your crew is better than losing 100% of your crew if the ship sinks).

Edited by Ultravis
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  1. Block surrender ability if you are sinking or on fire?
  2. Block surrender ability if you have not surrendered during first 5 mins of the battle?
  3. Do not block surrender ability - BUT recover ship HP to the level it stops sinking giving the victor the surrendered prize in all cases?

 

 

 

'Surrender' or as it should be called, 'striking colors', should never be blocked. A captain can haul down the colors anytime he wishes, this is historical.

 

If someone does not surrender before he crosses the critical sink threshold, then he is just a bad captain and will pay for this in the crew replacement costs, which should be even more expensive than it is now, that is if you want the medkits to have any value.

If the medkits become more valuable, you also as a result will drive the economy as this increases the value of fish, salt, tobacco, sugar, barrels, rum and the ports and trade routes where those are acquired.

 

Rewards for PVP against other nations should be quadrupled, XP, money, loot, all from it (this means they should be reduced to nothing for pirates vs pirates and same nation vs smugglers to avoid the obvious exploits). 

 

Fire should require more crew than it does currently btw.

 

If a ship is sinking or on fire there should be no option to turn off survival, a crew would throw a captain overboard if he told them not to save themselves.

 

If a ship is sinking and has surrendered, the captain who pulls up alongside and adds crew to it, not only captures it, but that crew immediately aids the pumping efforts, doubling the chance it survives.

 

So a player could pull up to a sinking ship, capture it, send 40 crew aboard and then sail off to rejoin the fight.

 

There were a few incidents of this happening in the age of sail, one that comes to mind is when the crew of the USS Hornet tried to help save the HMS Peacock it had just defeated. They tried to plug the holes below the waterline and throw the guns overboard to lighten the brig, but she still sank unfortunately. Three Americans and nine British sailors were trapped below deck and drowned. Maybe this could be another risk/reward choice for the player.

 

Efforts by the crew of the USS United States kept the HMS Macedonian afloat, however they also lay alongside one another at sea for 2 weeks repairing her so she could sail, but I doubt we need this level of detail, perhaps a captured ship requires one of your repair kits to make it to port though?

 

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3) Additional perks allowing lower crew costs and crew recovery in and after battle and allowing better xp and money revenue for pvp kills (esp honor kills)

 

 

 

By the way, please, please no, we have enough perks. Just simply up the XP and gold from PVP.

 

Perks do not need to become the equivalent of a president or prime minister announcing 20 new government programs to fix all the problems the last 20 government programs created.

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PvP rewards needs change again. Sinking a lot of players is unprofitable again after crew introduction. 

This problem is alleviated by ability to surrender any time.

 

The changes will be done in 2 steps

 

Step 1 - next patch and hot-fixes

1) Changes to surrender inlcuding no money and xp if you surrendered + changes to when the surrender option is available - Requires ROE changes. Beware the human nature of safety in numbers beating constantly any skill. Idea is excellent but implementation can backfire.

2) Increase PVP Kill/Boarding/Sinking rewards - Nice. Could be worked further down with VPs regarding BR battle Setup upon closing.

3) Additional perks allowing lower crew costs and crew recovery in and after battle and allowing better xp and money revenue for pvp kills (esp honor kills) - Okay, seems it can be a nice shortcut.

4) Moving repair and medical kits to upgrades to improve quality of life in case of unfortunate accidents. - Way better than it is now and will provoke more careful choice of ship equipment.

 

Step 2 - August-Sept Port battle patch

1)Renown/Admiralty points store (a-la marks of victory) - Seems good. Any chance of Infamy for Pirates tied to loot revenue from trade raiding ?

2)Hostility attack/defend quests - PvP !? Tied directly to players !? Bounty hunting ?

3)Better/Unique pvp drops/loot - great !!! Make it really valuable for most balanced BR fights and absolutely crap for one sided battles.

 

We have a question about surrenders

What to your opinion is a better implementation...

  1. Block surrender ability if you are sinking or on fire? - Yes. with reservations if possible to code. Fire shock should block ALL options. Please introduce Flooding Shock as well.
  2. Block surrender ability if you have not surrendered during first 5 mins of the battle? - 5 minutes into the battle is nothing. Many battles take some 15 minutes of wind and position until some decisive combat ensues. I do not see any advantage on this option. Further is makes no sense in a trade raid pursuit where the combat is all about chase and boarding.
  3. Do not block surrender ability - BUT recover ship HP to the level it stops sinking giving the victor the surrendered prize in all cases? - Crew will try to keep the ship afloat even if it strikes the colours. So normal crew mechanics apply here. Sounds like a good change.

 

 

Propose ideas for improving the pvp rewards or link posts if you have done this before.

 

a lot of links but will edit the post later when I have them all

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  1. Allow surrender at any time.
  2. When you surrender, a percentage of the kill XP/Gold is granted to the person with kill/assist credit based on damage (e.g. an entire side down = 60% of total kill XP/Gold, two entire sides down, 80% - tweak percentages as needed).
  3. When you surrender, if you're sinking/on fire, just enough planking XP is granted to prevent the ship from sinking - all fires are immediately extinguished to allow victors the opportunity to capture your ship.

That's all that's needed IMO.

 

I agree that if you take away XP/Gold from the surrendering ship, people won't care to fight at all - they'll just surrender right off.

 

Removing permanent upgrades, etc. because you surrendered will discourage people from fighting at all.  Don't make it harder/more expensive to fight, just make it more rewarding to force a ship to strike to you.  In reality, you wanted a ship to strike - it meant you could take control of that ship and get the credit with your government for it.  Similarly, striking to a superior force was also encouraged - a dead crew and officers didn't help anyone, and no crew was willing to fight to the death.

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  • Allow surrender at any time.
  • When you surrender, a percentage of the kill XP/Gold is granted to the person with kill/assist credit based on damage (e.g. an entire side down = 60% of total kill XP/Gold, two entire sides down, 80% - tweak percentages as needed).
  • When you surrender, if you're sinking/on fire, just enough planking XP is granted to prevent the ship from sinking - all fires are immediately extinguished to allow victors the opportunity to capture your ship.

Any reason left to initiate a boarding?

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I believe 1 would be the best. Surrender at any time, but if you're sinking/fire you cannot surrender. Perhaps if you sink your entire crew does not die, while the survivors clinging to boards may not have a way to make it back to port, since this isn't 100% realistic game, this wouldn't be a terrible option, maybe you could role play it as a fisherman brought them back to port.

With 2, a ship usually would surrender due to how much of the crew is lost/injured, damage to the ship, or how much of the fleet has surrendered/lost. So having the option only opened in the first 5 minutes I do not agree with.

With option 3, I partially agree with, maybe the ability to scavenge the ship, where you can get 25% of the loot on board (not the ship tho). Also whoever does the most damage should get the kill if they do surrender, and assist should be properly given to players. Most players do this to save crew, but it also prevents the other team from getting the kill/assist. I'm not really concerned about the loot being sunk, but more or less the option to claim the kill/assist for the gold and xp rewards.

 

With this: 1) Changes to surrender including no money and xp if you surrendered + changes to when the surrender option is available

I believe if you implement any of the ideas, this should be removed.

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I kinda agree with the idea that BR vs BR should define the reward as well.  Also the player count maybe should affect to it.

 

If there is a gank fleet of 5 players, and they hit 1 player, they should get decreased reward from that.  The one guy, if he gets something done, the reward should be multiplied.

 

This encourages people to fight and try, even tho the odds are not the best.  Also, it is not so nice to be in a gank fleet when you know your reward is decreased.

 

Once again, maybe not the most realistic, but it is a game, and might create good playability.

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Any reason left to initiate a boarding?

 

We're talking about surrender here, not capture (I think - if I'm wrong, please correct me).  Boarding someone does the same thing under this proposal that it does now.  The effects of my proposal basically do the following:

 

  1. Encourage people to fight before surrendering.  By fighting, as the person surrendering, you get gold and XP for doing damage and sticking it out.
  2. Reward the victor, even when, after a bit of a fight, their opponent surrenders.  Right now, I can fight to the last minute, and then surrender to deny you the extra XP/Gold.  This happens often, and it should not penalize the person winning the battle.
  3. Prevent exploiting in that you can't just start a fight and immediately surrender to grant your opponent full kill XP/Gold without really incurring any costs.  The time must be taken to damage the opponent to "earn" the percentage of gold/XP you're getting from the fight - meaning there is no "advantage" to an immediate surrender.
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Really glad you are looking at this and even gladerer you are asking the community, my humble opinion follows :

 

Step 1 - next patch and hot-fixes

1) Changes to surrender inlcuding no money and xp if you surrendered + changes to when the surrender option is available - See Below

2) Increase PVP Kill/Boarding/Sinking rewards Hurrah and Port Battle loots, make em as good/same as bottles...or even switch the two tables !!

3) Additional perks allowing lower crew costs and crew recovery in and after battle and allowing better xp and money revenue for pvp kills (esp honor kills) Surgeon/Medical Officer Related ?

4) Moving repair and medical kits to upgrades to improve quality of life in case of unfortunate accidents. Hurrah !!....but increase module storage bay please.

\

  1. Block surrender ability if you are sinking or on fire?

Add an Abandon ship if on-fire/sinking. No XP/Money. 75% of crew and 75% of officer life chance save. Moderate this with a perk (obv 75% is example)

Keep Surrender as is but cannot be invoked when taking on water or onfire or after assplosion

 

Give Credit for kills assists to the opposing team in both above outcomes.

 

  1. Block surrender ability if you have not surrendered during first 5 mins of the battle? Nah...surrender after a long battle is okies.
  2. Do not block surrender ability - BUT recover ship HP to the level it stops sinking giving the victor the surrendered prize in all cases?

2. is not as good as Abandon Ship....but better than current by ALOT....

 

Propose ideas for improving the pvp rewards or link posts if you have done this before.

 

All of above are also in suggestions forum. But coz its simples no need to link.

Edited by Jeheil
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Capturing causes a kill, so you get the full xp/gold.

 

Further, in my opinion, boarding should give a bonus to crew/officer xp when in pvp.

Exactly, if you are a ganker and you want the ship, then you must ensure you get the ship.

Not gank it to the point of sinking and then demanding a ship. That's just wailing.

 

We're talking about surrender here, not capture (I think - if I'm wrong, please correct me).  Boarding someone does the same thing under this proposal that it does now.  The effects of my proposal basically do the following:

  • Encourage people to fight before surrendering.  By fighting, as the person surrendering, you get gold and XP for doing damage and sticking it out.
  • Reward the victor, even when, after a bit of a fight, their opponent surrenders.  Right now, I can fight to the last minute, and then surrender to deny you the extra XP/Gold.  This happens often, and it should not penalize the person winning the battle.
  • Prevent exploiting in that you can't just start a fight and immediately surrender to grant your opponent full kill XP/Gold without really incurring any costs.  The time must be taken to damage the opponent to "earn" the percentage of gold/XP you're getting from the fight - meaning there is no "advantage" to an immediate surrender.

Item #3 already works and if it works, don't "fix" it.

Item #2 is simply a bug. If a ship sinks, somebody must have killed it.

As for #1, I propose to move to a model where we reward actions in battle itself, not just the result.

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/15149-i-ganked-the-british-and-all-i-got-was-this-lousy-t-shirt/

Add to that a 2000 officer XP reward if he dies. The officer's (full) life is limited anyway, so be generous.

 

2) Increase PVP Kill/Boarding/Sinking rewards Hurrah and Port Battle loots, make em as good/same as bottles...or even switch the two tables !!

They already are, but wreck loot is a story for another day.

3) Additional perks allowing lower crew costs and crew recovery in and after battle and allowing better xp and money revenue for pvp kills (esp honor kills) Surgeon/Medical Officer Related ?

4) Moving repair and medical kits to upgrades to improve quality of life in case of unfortunate accidents. Hurrah !!....but increase module storage bay please.

\

  • Block surrender ability if you are sinking or on fire?
Add an Abandon ship if on-fire/sinking. No XP/Money. 75% of crew and 75% of officer life chance save. Moderate this with a perk (obv 75% is example)

Keep Surrender as is but cannot be invoked when taking on water or onfire or after assplosion

 

Give Credit for kills assists to the opposing team in both above outcomes.

  • Block surrender ability if you have not surrendered during first 5 mins of the battle? Nah...surrender after a long battle is okies.
  • Do not block surrender ability - BUT recover ship HP to the level it stops sinking giving the victor the surrendered prize in all cases?
2. is not as good as Abandon Ship....but better than current by ALOT....

 

Propose ideas for improving the pvp rewards or link posts if you have done this before.

 

All of above are also in suggestions forum. But coz its simples no need to link.

I don't like the RNG, but then we need to take a look at the life of an officer. Under what conditions is the loss of an officer warranted?

Is that skill based or RNG based?

I second the motion to have abandon ship as an option.

"Ships of the line would carry a barge, launch, pinnace, two cutters, all of various sizes, and a jolly boat, while the brigs might just carry a jolly boat and a cutter."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jolly_boat

But rather than free, the ship should have either Jolly boats or whaleboats in its hold. (Or whatever.)

Depending on size and amount it'll save some crew and your officer.

(More retail items is a good thing. :P )

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