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Skully

To gank or be ganked, that is the question

Joining OW timers  

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  1. 1. 30 second no-attack and 120 second no-join?



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We got a lot of topics on this with everyone going back and forth to either buff or de-buff the ganker/gankee. Some even change their minds as they go from gankee to ganker or vica versa. :D

 

For those there is for example the thread: http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/14485-hiding-in-battle-screens-solved

 

I just want to toss out a suggestion and see how it flies without any side pollution.

So lets do a simple yes or no to:

  1. People coming onto Open World either out of Port of Battle Screen must all have a 30 second no attack timer and a 120 second no join timer.

The goals:

  1. Promote folks who come out.
  2. Anybody visible on OW can join the fray, nobody else.

[edit 2016-06-25] added "open world entry" tag

Edited by Skully

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It is already like that... at least my screen shows a 30 secs countdown to attack/be attacked and a 120 timer to join battles... ( am I missing something ? ).

 

The only thing that ALSO happens is that anyone in the circle will be drawn into combat despite the timers. And this is where the new "gank exploit" lies.

 

It's a bloody sad sad thing that such power-gaming finds its way into such a beautiful historical recreation game.

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The only thing that ALSO happens is that anyone in the circle will be drawn into combat despite the timers.

I was puzzled to discover this. And I'm also unsure whether this might be consistent. Why disallow someone to join battles while he can actually start one? 30 secs / 120 secs?

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The 120 to join timer is to prevent "port ambush" and "log ambush". Given we have 118 seconds to be able to join a battle that started, coming out of a port or from a login screen renders impossible to do it.

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I was puzzled to discover this. And I'm also unsure whether this might be consistent. Why disallow someone to join battles while he can actually start one? 30 secs / 120 secs?

 

to avoid people you did not see in OW entering a battle with you and ambushing from nowhere... 30 secs is sufficient for you to assess the danger and accept a battle/try to escape, buit less than 120 to join would mean that after you enter battle 4 more people sailing from port/ appearing from "nowhere" and enter changing odds dramatically . 

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The 120 to join timer is to prevent "port ambush" and "log ambush". Given we have 118 seconds to be able to join a battle that started, coming out of a port or from a login screen renders impossible to do it.

I dont see the problem, near a port expect who ever you hit to get help, ofcourse it should be possible to call for help and get it from a port near by. For the log ambush that is sh.. but what is problem make sure players relogging cant join or hit for the reinforce time that is. atm 2 min.

 

Biggest problem in game right now for pvpers is the reinforce timer, its 2 min and with the slow speed in open water its just not enough even tho you can see the ships tagging you cant even with 180 wind get there in time.

 

To get some good pvp fight we need reinforce timer to be longer, as a min so that the guy getting ganked can get help, up to a BR that evens out the fight.

 

Now its gank or being ganked and it feels like that is how the Devs want it. i just cant figure out why they dont want the odds to get a good even fun fight to bee better or just as good as being ganked. 

 

Could a Admin tell us why the reinforce timer is as it is ?

 

I dont mind a gank, but its every time players that could even up a fight sit outsite because battel closed just infront of them.

 

Danish

Edited by Danishviking

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http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/13106-patch-97-land-sighted/?p=239607

 

In other words, promote smaller battles instead of ever growing ones. Every captain should be aware of fleet compositions in his immediate surroundings (or sail with someone who does :P ).

This is what the Admin says in that link

 

These changes will makes it even harder to do pvp. In my world the word "ganking" is nonsense on a pvp server. Maybe it makes sence in a pve-world.  If you go alone in pvp unescorted in enemy waters - well then you ask for getting captured. With this patch this game is getting overprotective and most likely leads to fewer pvp-actions. Let alone the 2 min timer. These kind of timers should be removed. It was much more fun before the 2 min where introduced.

 

 

Admin respons

That means world collide

In our world most pvp players disagree with this statement. 2 min timers made pvp better especially for smaller groups. 

Its hard to find middle ground here. Our position is and was always this: ganking has to be reduced by design.

 

What i see in game is that its just wrong, 2 min just dont give good fights for small groups it givs ganking for smaller groups, even right outsite ports.(because travel on open water is so slow, time to get near battel is needed)

Make the reinforce timer longer to reinforce up to same BR and we can have some fights. (doing this will make sure that the group that attacked a guy dont get ganked back, but on the other hand they will have

to fight abit for there kills) 

 

Or maby you got some stats, where we can se how many small fights there is for like last week and how even there BR was. (from 2vs2 up to like 6vs6)

 

Danish

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Edited by Danishviking

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Our position is and was always this: ganking has to be reduced by design.

My proposal to reduce extreme ganking situations -- make the players think if it's worth to join.

 

Sum up all damage made in a battle -- own damage and opponent damage -- make your calculations of gold and XP based on this overall damage.

 

Small example:

 

1 ship vs 10 ships: overall in the battle there were xxx sails damage and xxx hull damage made = 25.000 gold and 1.500 XP

The one ship gets 1.500 XP and 25.000 gold but has to deal with the dura loss, of course.

The other 10 ships have to divide all by 10: 150 XP and 2500 gold for each participant.

 

This makes the fighting well worth for the single ship and less worth for the 10 ships -- they would think twice if they should join especially when BR is already unbalanced.

This also deals with different battle roles which aren't respected at all for now, because all that counts is damage. But a ship with lesser fire power might play a very important battle role by tagging the opponent in early battle stage, but get very low reward because he has done almost no damage -- improved because every participant gets equal rewards.

 

Discuss.

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Well, if we really need to go down the road of reducing ganking by design, then here we go.

 

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Ganking

 

The score ratio proposal above would not reduce the ganking itself. It would be a minor penalty. (You don't score much during PvP anyway and run away with a ship.)

 

Basically to reduce ganking we need to give the gankee a chance of defending himself.

 

And here we run into tough questions:

  1. How far should anti-ganking measures go?
    1. "Do tell us which mechanic you think is supposed to safe a single Pavel from a ganking squad?"
    2. http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/14485-hiding-in-battle-screens-solved/?p=269696
    3. Please answer in that topic.
  2. What is more important?
    1. Situational aweness
    2. Open world fleet and ship positioning
    3. Anti-ganking mechanics
    4. (Other?)
  3. Likewise there can be no counter-ganking. How is this supposed to work?
    1. I think the http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/14485-hiding-in-battle-screens-solved/ topic is a better place to discuss this.

Rather than even trying to answer these questions I'm going to throw up a suggestion and see whether it could fly:

  1. Both parties receive a 2 minute join timer.
  2. The gankee receives an additional amount equal to ((enemy BR - own BR) / enemy BR) * X minutes.
    1. As an implementation detail: the battle close time for said party is recalculated each time a ship joins (or leaves). The actual timer that is running down is battle close time - now.

To go into the example of the lone Pavel. Say X = 3 minutes. If it gets hit by 3 Constitutions, its side gets an extra 100 seconds to join.

Should an extra Trincomalee join the gankers side an extra 16 seconds is added.

A Lynx against the same 3 Constitutions would get almost the full 180 seconds.

 

Vica versa, lots of defending forces joining the battle could actually re-open the battle for extra gankers. While an even fight will close in 2 minutes.

 

I think that will satisfy the requirement of giving the defender/gankee a better chance of survival without taking away too much from (what I think the more important) open world fleet and ship tactics.

Edited by Skully

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Well, if we really need to go down the road of reducing ganking by design, then here we go.

 

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Ganking

 

The score ratio proposal above would not reduce the ganking itself. It would be a minor penalty. (You don't score much during PvP anyway and run away with a ship.)

 

Basically to reduce ganking we need to give the gankee a chance of defending himself.

 

And here we run into tough questions:

  1. How far should anti-ganking measures go?
    1. "Do tell us which mechanic you think is supposed to safe a single Pavel from a ganking squad?"
    2. http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/14485-hiding-in-battle-screens-solved/?p=269696
    3. Please answer in that topic.
  2. What is more important?
    1. Situational aweness
    2. Open world fleet and ship positioning
    3. Anti-ganking mechanics
    4. (Other?)
  3. Likewise there can be no counter-ganking. How is this supposed to work?
    1. I think the http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/14485-hiding-in-battle-screens-solved/ topic is a better place to discuss this.

Rather than even trying to answer these questions I'm going to throw up a suggestion and see whether it could fly:

  1. Both parties receive a 2 minute join timer.
  2. The gankee receives an additional amount equal to ((enemy BR - own BR) / enemy BR) * X minutes.
    1. As an implementation detail: the battle close time for said party is recalculated each time a ship joins (or leaves). The actual timer that is running down is battle close time - now.

To go into the example of the lone Pavel. Say X = 3 minutes. If it gets hit by 3 Constitutions, its side gets an extra 100 seconds to join.

Should an extra Trincomalee join the gankers side an extra 16 seconds is added.

A Lynx against the same 3 Constitutions would get almost the full 180 seconds.

 

Vica versa, lots of defending forces joining the battle could actually re-open the battle for extra gankers. While an even fight will close in 2 minutes.

 

I think that will satisfy the requirement of giving the defender/gankee a better chance of survival without taking away too much from (what I think the more important) open world fleet and ship tactics.

1 Minute more or less wont make a difference. and @Lynx BR difference.

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Could all be fixed by having a PVP "flag".  If it's "on", you're fair game, if it's "off", you can't be attacked.  That should fix the moaning minnies.

 

And destroy War on Trade.

 

Yes, let's kill "honest" piracy, privateering. While we are at it let's kill Interdiction Flotillas, you know, the ones that harass the lone 1st and 2nd rates that keep being stubborn enough to sail on their own milking the NPCs like they think they are on the PvE server.

 

Yes, let's kill a big part of the OW activities.

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1 Minute more or less wont make a difference. and @Lynx BR difference.

I think we need the "Do tell us which mechanic you think is supposed to safe a single Pavel from a ganking squad?" question answered here then.

 

As you put it, the single Pavel is not happy with 100 seconds extra (almost 2 minutes) in which buddies can help him and would rather stick with the current mechanism. I doubt that though.

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The solution is so simple. 3 minute invisibility timer as soon as you leave the battle. You can't see any ships and no ships can see you. This is the only way to give the person being ganked a fair chance of surviving.

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The solution is so simple. 3 minute invisibility timer as soon as you leave the battle. You can't see any ships and no ships can see you. This is the only way to give the person being ganked a fair chance of surviving.

The gank itself has already happened, plus it gives the ganker fleet a serious advantage.

 

Take a look at our 2 videos at http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/14348-sorvesteons-naval-action-videos/?p=270174

In particular the fleet composition. We continuously have 3 squads:

  1. Forward gank squad
  2. Reinforce gank squad
  3. Scout squad

In the first video the forward squad chases a lone Pavel into his mission. The Pavel (and part of forward) escapes and it gets ganked by the scouts. D4mi4n comes out of Port Antonio to be ganked by the reinforce squad. Everyone rotates squad as situation dictates.

 

We always have scouts sitting outside on the lookout. So picture us having 3 minutes of invisibility, while the scout directs us. :ph34r:

 

The only thing that can get at us is an organized interceptor fleet. Maybe you should ask Tommy Shelby from the Swedish. ;)

 

[edit] The Pavel got chased into his mission, hence he could escape. :P

Edited by Skully

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The gank itself has already happened, plus it gives the ganker fleet a serious advantage.

Take a look at our 2 videos at http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/14348-sorvesteons-naval-action-videos/?p=270174

In particular the fleet composition. We continuously have 3 squads:

  • Forward gank squad
  • Reinforce gank squad
  • Scout squad
In the first video the forward squad chases a lone Pavel into his mission. The Pavel (and part of forward) escapes and it gets ganked by the scouts. D4mi4n comes out of Port Antonio to be ganked by the reinforce squad. Everyone rotates squad as situation dictates.

We always have scouts sitting outside on the lookout. So picture us having 3 minutes of invisibility, while the scout directs us. :ph34r:

The only thing that can get at us is an organized interceptor fleet. Maybe you should ask Tommy Shelby from the Swedish. ;)

[edit] The Pavel got chased into his mission, hence he could escape. :P

The 3 minutes of invisibity does not help you because you cannot see the any ships. Only your ship is visible.

You leave a port, no player ship is visible for 3 min and no enemy ship can see you. This way the gankers have to spread out quite far and stretch their lines thin to guess where the ship will be when it appears. But since the person leaving port cannot see the enemy ships either, he has to take a chance on which direction to travel away from the port. This makes ganking way harder and at the same time gives the person getting ganked a chance to actually get away. The gankers will need scout ships to chase him down and pull him into combat. It also gives the gankers 1 shot at getting the ship maybe 2 if they are lucky and manage to pull him in again.

30 seconds no attack is obsurd and not nearly enough time for a player to assess the danger and react. Not once has an enemy ship managed to get away from being ganked. And I personally have never managed to get away from it. I even managed to sink 2 scout ships once while being ganked, and almost sank a constitution in my constitution in a 3v1 gank. This is because of a combination of the game being slow paced and sail damage from chain shot in combat. I leave the port or battle screen, it takes me 3-5 seconds to address the situation, 4-5 seconds to get my sails down, 10-15 seconds to turn my ship to flee in open world, at best, I have 13 seconds to get away. No player getting ganked stands a chance. In battle, 1 broad side to my sails and it's good game. You will never escape because the ship that is going to chain shot your sails spawned right next to your ship in combat an will bring you to 90% with one volley.

How this is even considered remotely accepable is beyond me, and players will just quit playing after being ganked in this manor 2-3 times. It is unhealthy for the game. People who play this game want big port battles and fair fights. They don't want to get ganked just after being sunk and defeated at the port battle. And especially do not want to get ganked sailing into a free port trying to ship their notes and boat parts to another free port. It's bullshit that 3-4 ships can just pop out of port and pull you into combat before you can get into the port. It has never happend to me personally, but my clan mate has stolen goods this way and I know other people who have suffered tremendous loss from their trader ships being port ganked. If there was a 3 min invisibility timer, only the scout ship could pull you into combat, and the other 3 ships that were sitting in port would have to wait 3 minutes due to not seeing any ships. They would have no idea where the trade ship is because they would not see him.

Edited by Ultravis

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Your proposal is based on a claim that is impossible to happen. You can't get ganked out of a friendly port.

 

Now sailing to a free-port is a different matter, it requires skill or dominance of the area. Otherwise you'll lose. And trust me we've lost millions of gold and thousands of hours, because we took a risk.

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/14165-the-betrayal-of-the-ausez-to-the-british-empire/?p=264990

 

As for the tagging, an unsubstantial claim: "Not once has an enemy ship managed to get away from being ganked." That's the point were I stop reading the paragraph. But I'll give a go at it.

Leaving port is always a save proposition, just sit there. Look around. Take a sip of coffee, tea, whatever. Assess the situation (look also at the wind direction). Then dock back up and immediately undock (if you haven't been tagged yet :P ). Sails up and there you go.

Leaving a battlescreen is always a risky proposition. You should work to mitigate that risk. If enemies are known to be around, log off, take a break. Otherwise ask around, get some intel and then make a judgement call.

 

The way I see it, you fail to see the role of the scout. Even when you and enemies are invisible to one-another, the enemies are visible to the scout and he can just direct the invisible ganker fleet. And voila a coming-out-of-invisibility gank achieved.

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Your proposal is based on a claim that is impossible to happen. You can't get ganked out of a friendly port.

 

Now sailing to a free-port is a different matter, it requires skill or dominance of the area. Otherwise you'll lose. And trust me we've lost millions of gold and thousands of hours, because we took a risk.

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/14165-the-betrayal-of-the-ausez-to-the-british-empire/?p=264990

 

As for the tagging, an unsubstantial claim: "Not once has an enemy ship managed to get away from being ganked." That's the point were I stop reading the paragraph. But I'll give a go at it.

Leaving port is always a save proposition, just sit there. Look around. Take a sip of coffee, tea, whatever. Assess the situation (look also at the wind direction). Then dock back up and immediately undock (if you haven't been tagged yet :P ). Sails up and there you go.

Leaving a battlescreen is always a risky proposition. You should work to mitigate that risk. If enemies are known to be around, log off, take a break. Otherwise ask around, get some intel and then make a judgement call.

 

The way I see it, you fail to see the role of the scout. Even when you and enemies are invisible to one-another, the enemies are visible to the scout and he can just direct the invisible ganker fleet. And voila a coming-out-of-invisibility gank achieved.

 

When I said "not once has an enemy ship got away from being ganked" I was referring to my own experience, but if your not going to bother to take the time to read my post, then whats the point, your mind is already made up.  You think you have it all figured out when, I think you and the developers clearly do not understand how this situation is game breaking and are making a drastic mistake with allowing the current ganking situation to persist.  

 

I just did a port battle this morning, and we lost the battle, 3 ships escaped the battle, one of us waited in the log in screen for 20 minutes only to get pulled into combat after he went into open world and lost his ship.  I waited 40 minutes and I still got pulled into combat with lots of ships waiting outside the port.  They just sit there and wait.  Its pathetic; why even play Naval action if I have to sit and wait in the battle screen.  All I want to do is go back to a free port and go do something else in the game, missions, trade, whatever, but no, I am stuck in a log in screen.  There have been times we even won the port battle, and when I got into open world, all I wanted to do was put the victory I was piloting into port and log out for the night.  But I could not even get the ship turned round and into port within the time it took for them to wait for my battle timer to go down AND their battle timer for pulling me in.  I never saw the option to enter port.   So after winning the port battle, I am reward with a lost victory because a bunch of ships that couldn't get to the battle in time were ganking us coming out of the battle.  How is this acceptable?  

 

The current combat timers is ridiculous.  I see it, everyone I play with sees it, but you fail to see it, and it is one of the reasons why this game is dying, but your response is, "clearly you do not know the role of the scout".  Well, clearly you do not know what is ruining the game.  

 

1)  People do not want to get pulled into combat after losing or winning a port battle, they already take up to an hour or more to complete.

2)  People do not want to get pulled into combat by ships suddenly appearing in open world out of a free port.   

Edited by Ultravis

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The problem with port battles is that after a long battle there can be still enemy ships around so that although you have won the battle, you can be dragged again into a new one. This is annoying and quite silly at the same time. I think harbours should have a safety zone where ships cannot be attacked. Not really big, but big enough to protect a ship which is in close range to the harbour entry.

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When I said "not once has an enemy ship got away from being ganked" I was referring to my own experience, but if your not going to bother to take the time to read my post, then whats the point, your mind is already made up.  You think you have it all figured out when, I think you and the developers clearly do not understand how this situation is game breaking and are making a drastic mistake with allowing the current ganking situation to persist.  

 

I just did a port battle this morning, and we lost the battle, 3 ships escaped the battle, one of us waited in the log in screen for 20 minutes only to get pulled into combat after he went into open world and lost his ship.  I waited 40 minutes and I still got pulled into combat with lots of ships waiting outside the port.  They just sit there and wait.  Its pathetic; why even play Naval action if I have to sit and wait in the battle screen.  All I want to do is go back to a free port and go do something else in the game, missions, trade, whatever, but no, I am stuck in a log in screen.  There have been times we even won the port battle, and when I got into open world, all I wanted to do was put the victory I was piloting into port and log out for the night.  But I could not even get the ship turned round and into port within the time it took for them to wait for my battle timer to go down AND their battle timer for pulling me in.  I never saw the option to enter port.   So after winning the port battle, I am reward with a lost victory because a bunch of ships that couldn't get to the battle in time were ganking us coming out of the battle.  How is this acceptable?  

 

The current combat timers is ridiculous.  I see it, everyone I play with sees it, but you fail to see it, and it is one of the reasons why this game is dying, but your response is, "clearly you do not know the role of the scout".  Well, clearly you do not know what is ruining the game.  

 

1)  People do not want to get pulled into combat after losing or winning a port battle, they already take up to an hour or more to complete.

2)  People do not want to get pulled into combat by ships suddenly appearing in open world out of a free port.   

 

  1. Hence you have the option to log-off after each battle.
  2. A free port represents risk and it is clearly marked on the map. If you are not prepared to face the consequences of that risk, don't sail to them.

I'm very curious what plan was made by the port battle fleet for the eventuality that you would lose the port battle?

To me, coming out 1-by-1 without a scout or escort fleet present is the worst option. (And that goes for every 1st or 2nd coming out of a battlescreen anywhere.)

How come every ship that sunk in that PB didn't join the escort fleet? Did your fleet members simply abandon you?

 

Now if you win a port battle, you can't enter port as long as there is somebody in that battle. That is just a bug to me and it needs to be raised top-level.

 

Apart from that you can't blame mechanics for poor foresight.

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  1. Hence you have the option to log-off after each battle.
  2. A free port represents risk and it is clearly marked on the map. If you are not prepared to face the consequences of that risk, don't sail to them.

I'm very curious what plan was made by the port battle fleet for the eventuality that you would lose the port battle?

To me, coming out 1-by-1 without a scout or escort fleet present is the worst option. (And that goes for every 1st or 2nd coming out of a battlescreen anywhere.)

How come every ship that sunk in that PB didn't join the escort fleet? Did your fleet members simply abandon you?

 

Now if you win a port battle, you can't enter port as long as there is somebody in that battle. That is just a bug to me and it needs to be raised top-level.

 

Apart from that you can't blame mechanics for poor foresight.

 

 

You keep attacking my personal character, for example, you are accusing me of using poor mechanics and having poor foresight.  Total nonsense.  Are you even reading what I wrote before you post a response?  My foresight is that I am stuck in a battle screen and cannot go into open world because its a guaranteed lost ship.  So I am forced to log off and not play the game for the rest of the day.  This is absolutely retarded.  May as well just not play the game at all.

 

1)  what if I don't want to log off?  I sure as hell am being force to log off after escaping a port battle, because going out into open world is suicide.  If you are on the losing side of a port battle, you are probably 1 of a few ships to escape the battle.  There will be lots of ships licking their chops waiting for you to pop out of the battle screen to capture or sink your ship.  I have been on both the receiving end of this and the offensive side of this and it sucks. 

 

2)  Free ports are required to ship goods too and from ports at or close to where your constructed buildings are such as shipyards.  Getting ganked outside of a free port to ships popping out of the port that you did not know were waiting there for you to show up is absolutely unacceptable.  Its different if they saw me in open world and chased me down.  Popping out of free ports to capture a trader with his goods is an abuse of the mechanics of the game. 

 

Ships sunk in the port battle got teleported to the nearest friendly port, which can be 5-10 min away, they are not coming to try and save the people who escaped and are now stuck in a battle results screen. 

Edited by Ultravis

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To give everyone insight into our planning: http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/14649-courtesysportsmanship-after-pbs/?p=271764

 

It has all the elements you speak of, a lost port battle, a race to a freeport and finally bad judgement on our part.

 

No mechanics were hurt during the making of that story. :P

Edited by Skully

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IMHO Ships should be repositioned outside of engagement range from the aggressors if they've successfully fled from an OW battle, and fleeing ships should be outside of gun range for a small amount of time rather than this silly 2m timer that lets ships vanish from point-blank, right under your guns range.

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IMHO Ships should be repositioned outside of engagement range from the aggressors if they've successfully fled from an OW battle, and fleeing ships should be outside of gun range for a small amount of time rather than this silly 2m timer that lets ships vanish from point-blank, right under your guns range.

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/14485-hiding-in-battle-screens-solved/?p=272573

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