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Ned Loe

'La Bretagne' French 1st Rate, 100 Guns, 1766 (Looking For Plans)

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'La Bretagne' 

 

The Bretagne was a large 110-gun three-decker French ship of the line, built at Brest, which became famous as the flagship of the Brest Fleet during the American War of Independence. She was funded by a don des vaisseaux grant by the Estates of Brittany.
 
Bretagne was one of seventeen ships of the line ordered in 1762 as a result of the Duc de Choiseul’s campaign to raise funds for the navy from the cities and provinces of France. She was completed at Brest in 1766.
 
dUSfXO2.jpg

 

ifVUYLF.jpg

 

Specs:

 

La Bretagne 1765-1796
By A. Grignard
Built In Breast
Launched in 1766
 
184' - 50' - 24'6''
30-gun of 36-pdr; 32-gun of 24-pdr; 32-gun of 12-pdr; 6-gun of 6-pdr
Total 116-gun
 
In 1777, La Bretagne undergoes a major remake of 2/3. Artillery is given a 110-gun.
 
Other name, le Révolutionnaire in 1793
 
This ship could be a great addition to NA 1st rate team. 
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La Bretagne 1765-1796

By A. Grignard

Built In Breast

Launched in 1766

184' - 50' - 24'6''

30-gun of 36-pdr; 32-gun of 24-pdr; 32-gun of 12-pdr; 6-gun of 6-pdr

Total 116-gun

In 1777, La Bretagne undergoes a major remake of 2/3. Artillery is given a 110-gun.

Other name, le Révolutionnaire in 1793

Plans no longer exist.

Just leaving this here.

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Just leaving this here.

Who said plans no longer exist? Where is the source? Models were build from plans. 

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Who said plans no longer exist? Where is the source? Models were build from plans. 

It was part of a discussion in a different topic. I can't confirm if its true or not, yet it might be good to keep in mind.

Maybe Surcoef has a source for it.

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It was part of a discussion in a different topic. I can't confirm if its true or not, yet it might be good to keep in mind.

Maybe Surcoef has a source for it.

I can confirm Brest Naval Museum has the model. Question is how can we get in touch with them?

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Plans available in the Archives of the French Navy at Vincennes (France) :

D1 63, n°7

8DD1 10, n° 17

8DD1 10, n° 16

 
But to Surcouf :

Plans no longer exist.

He's certainly right.

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Found some more info with another model , stern showing. 

 

http://www.patrimoine-histoire.fr/MaqTxt/zzBretagne.htm

 

Can anyone read French?

 

This is an account of the ship (building, history...).

Here is also a paper in French about the building of La Bretagnehttp://www.persee.fr/doc/abpo_0003-391x_1911_num_27_2_1359

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Who said plans no longer exist? Where is the source? Models were build from plans.

Not necessarily. Many models are built according to the "real" ship. Other concurrently with the ship under construction, and another before plans for presentation to the king.

For more information:

There is a plan of Brittany dating from 1763 by A. Groignard, but it's just a project.

The plan proposes a longer length; 195´ between parallel.

A. Groignard did not have the right to a vessel larger than the Royal-Louis (190´), so it has redesigned the plans for a length of 182 '.

The ship was to be built in Lorient, only a few farme are built. Then they trensportés Brest to finish the construction. He touch the water in 1766.

Plan of the project. Bad quality...

post-5241-0-15789300-1464896185_thumb.jpg

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Not same vessel.

 

 

The danish text on the plan mentions a 'La Britannia' (sic) built by Antoine Groignard and the dimensions given are 180' / 50', draught 22' 9'' / 24' 9''.

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Found more. This one is a big hit. 

 

http://www.patrimoine-histoire.fr/Maquettes/Bretagne.htm

BR02.jpg

 

BR01.jpg

 

Bretagne_Proue.jpg

Is this model of the Bretagne after her refit? Because this one looks quite different from the models in the OP. The models in the OP are of a pretty ship. This one, though, looks like an ugly bastard. 

Edited by Arvenski

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No, this model is a bad quality and not representative of la Bretagne.

This painting is a best representative after rebuilding.

post-5241-0-33790200-1464987723_thumb.jpg

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The danish text on the plan mentions a 'La Britannia' (sic) built by Antoine Groignard and the dimensions given are 180' / 50', draught 22' 9'' / 24' 9''.

I don't know, perhaps another project.

Should be able to read the text of the plan.

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On 6/2/2016 at 10:19 PM, Surcouf said:

Here is a rear view of the ship in 1795 in Brest harbour.

post-5241-0-69410100-1464898765_thumb.jpg

 

On 6/3/2016 at 11:02 PM, Surcouf said:

No, this model is a bad quality and not representative of la Bretagne.

This painting is a best representative after rebuilding.

post-5241-0-33790200-1464987723_thumb.jpg

Surcouf, I'm afraid you are mistaken. This is definitely not the Bretagne as it is a two-decker!

Actually, the ship described as the Bretagne e.g. by Boudriot in Neptunia 122 (1976) or by Forrer in Neptunia 202 (1996) is the ship on the very left edge of Hue's painting of which you see just the foremost part of the hull with bow and figurehead (a trumpet blowing "Renommée"):

Bretagne (Hue, 1794).jpeg

 

BTW, there is another painting representing the Bretagne which is kept in the Peabody Essex Museum, Salem. It was published in Navies and the American Revolution 1775-1783, Robert Gardiner (ed.), London: Chatham Publishing, 1996, p.82.

It's a portrait by Joseph François (or François Joseph) Emeric, dated 1782. Quote from the book:

"The caption [to the painting] gives the dimensions (in French feet) as length on deck 185ft 6in, maximum breadth 50ft, depth in hold 25ft, height of battery amidships 5ft 6in."

Bretagne (Emeric, 1782).jpeg

One interesting detail is the figurehead.

According to Boudriot and Forrer, the trumpeting Renommée probably dates from the Revolutionary period (or from the later 1780s?). The original figurehead, designed by Lubet, represented a woman wrapped in a robe ("Brittany"?) holding an escutcheon (with the coat of arms of Brittany, I presume).

Forrer assumes that this figure had been replaced by 1778 by a lion holding the escutcheon with the arms of Brittany, quoting from a report of 1777 which recommended the replacement of the original figure, which was accepted (as making a new lion figurehead was deemed cheaper than restoring the original figure which was in want of repair).

Bretagne, figurehead as designed by Lubet (left) and projected figurehead (1777).jpeg

However, in my opinion, there is no evidence at all that the original figurehead actually was replaced by a lion. First, because there is a model of the ship kept in the Musée de Brest, presumably made or commissoned by Forfait in 1780(!), which still shows the original figurehead. Second, because Emeric's portrait dated 1782(!) clearly represents not a lion at all but, evidently, the original figurehead again. Unfortunately, the photo as printed in the book looks overexposed. So, many details are obscured but clearly the figurehead is a human being, wrapped in clothes, the right arm is being held backwards, as with the original figure.

Bretagne, Lubet figurehead (model Forfait, 1780).jpeg

 

Bretagne, figure de proue (Emeric, 1782).jpeg

Edited by Wagram
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I do not know, I'm not at home, you're certainly right!
Of memory there is a three decks built by A. Grougnard struck off the list in the 1790s. Does not it be this one ? :)

Edited by Surcouf

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Surcouf, I don't understand exactly what's your problem. :rolleyes:

Yes, of course, la Bretagne , rebaptised le Révolutionnaire in 1793 and broken up in 1796, was a three-decker. So, actually, what we see on Hue's painting (on the far left) is "Le Révolutionnaire", ex-"La Bretagne"...

However, you twice asserted that it was the ship seen here on the right that was la Bretagne, while it was the ship on the left:

Révolutionnaire (left), two decker (right).jpeg

and that ship on the right is a two-decker, ergo NOT la Bretagne, anyway.

:)

Edited by Wagram

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2 hours ago, Surcouf said:

Ok, I give up, my English is too bad, I had to understand something wrong ... I'm so sorry.

Your English is fine enough, just exercise your observation skills.;)

Edited by Wagram

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