Crew management update - discussion

[kadrin]

1)Build a tobacco or sugar plantation.  

2) Spend 30 mins every 3 days selling your stock

3)Collect ~750,000 gold

4)Continue on your merry ways....  A minimal amount of economic play is required.

I already have all my building slots taken because I was starting to do economy stuff with my group of friends.  Also, in a game called NAVAL ACTION, on a PVP server, economic play shouldn't be required.

[Hethwill]

I already have all my building slots taken because I was starting to do economy stuff with my group of friends.  Also, in a game called NAVAL ACTION, on a PVP server, economic play shouldn't be required.

 

It isn't. At all.

[Cmdr RideZ]

As stated in another thread.

 

Old players saying that crew is ok, I could say the same I admit.  The new guys are suffering for sure.

 

Crew can be part of the economy, but it does not have to be in so big role as it is atm.

 

Lets take 5th rate ship as an example, the frigate.  It cost something from 100k to 300k, its price may go up to lets say 500k, but it is rare.

 

Player loses all duras -> Crew cost 700k.  (Without med kits)

 

Basic Frigate cost 70k, crew for it 140k.

 

So imho, crew is too expensive indeed and it has too big role in the economy.

[TommyShelby]

As stated in another thread.

 

Old players saying that crew is ok, I could say the same I admit.  The new guys are suffering for sure.

 

Crew can be part of the economy, but it does not have to be in so big role as it is atm.

 

Lets take 5th rate ship as an example, the frigate.  It cost something from 100k to 300k, its price may go up to lets say 500k, but it is rare.

 

Player loses all duras -> Crew cost 700k.  (Without med kits)

 

Basic Frigate cost 70k, crew for it 140k.

 

So imho, crew is too expensive indeed and it has too big role in the economy.

 

Stop letting your ship sink thereby loosing all your crew... 

It's so simple, try surrendering once in a while. 

 

The people complaining about crew costs are the people not willing to surrender, ever. 

[Skully]

I already have all my building slots taken because I was starting to do economy stuff with my group of friends.  Also, in a game called NAVAL ACTION, on a PVP server, economic play shouldn't be required.

It isn't, but then you are choosing the most difficult path in Naval Action of being a Privateer only.

Now we do have an issue on PvP2:

• Reform ship builder goals away from gold.
• Add a clan "AI" sub-crafter.

The second is also important for the situation we see on PvP2. If the server/area gets very low on players, then labor hours becomes the ultimate commodity.

As can also been seen from the screenshot, absolutely nothing is available in Charleston. Clan "AI" isn't fulfilling it's role properly.

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/15277-the-economic-ai/

You get labor hours for a reason: to finance your war efforts.

But right now it is simply impossible to do economy with a small player group and clan "AI" broken. So I would give that part up, especially since you want to fight.

Just create that Tobacco or Sugar plantation and either sell it locally or to the consumer port. A LGV, fully loaded with Tobacco, should net you $6M.

[kadrin]

Stop letting your ship sink thereby loosing all your crew... 

It's so simple, try surrendering once in a while. 

 

The people complaining about crew costs are the people not willing to surrender, ever. 

While I did complain about losing a ship and crew is huge, just losing crew in a battle you win is extremely costly.

 

Last mission I just did:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/46177663/mission.jpg

 

506 hull hits, 5 kills, 1 assist, enemy team had 2 Essexs, 2 Frigates, 2 Surprises, 1 Niagara (poor thing), and 1 Renomee.  It was a 152 mission.

 

As you can see my armor was extremely low at the end (and that was after a repair kit).  So repair cost (6849) + repair kit (6891) + 75 crew (37500) = 51240 gold spent fixing my ship and replacing crew.

 

51240 gold.  I only earned 64589 + 5000 for the mission for 69589.  69589 - 51240 = 18349 gold for a 40 minute battle.  If I didn't have to pay for crew I would have got 55849, which makes doing missions actually worth while.

 

This is unacceptable.

[Skully]

As you can see my armor was extremely low at the end (and that was after a repair kit).  So repair cost (6849) + repair kit (6891) + 75 crew (37500) = 51240 gold spent fixing my ship and replacing crew.

 

51240 gold.  I only earned 64589 + 5000 for the mission for 69589.  69589 - 51240 = 18349 gold for a 40 minute battle.  If I didn't have to pay for crew I would have got 55849, which makes doing missions actually worth while.

 

This is unacceptable.

Hmm, you actually made money using the most expensive crew replacement option.

So far I was thinking we actually had an issue here.

By which definition is this unacceptable?

Edited August 6, 2016 by Skully

[kadrin]

Hmm, you actually made money using the most expensive crew replacement option.

So far I was thinking we actually had an issue here.

By which definition is this unacceptable?

Or you know, the only crew replacement option.  As there are not medkits for sale that do not come out to less than 500 gold per crew.  Nor do I have the materials to be able to build my own.  I could pick up the perk that reduces the cost of recruiting crew by 100 gold, which only reduces overall crew costs by a few thousand, but also then makes medkits the most expensive crew replacement option and also means I miss out on choosing a perk I actually want because the crew cost reduction perk basically becomes mandatory.

 

Anyway, whatever, I'm done.  My friends already left over this, I imagine others will too, not to mention all the new players that will be driven off by the absurd amount of time required to get any money to do anything.

[Cmdr RideZ]

It is not about just sinking your ship.

 

Some can just and just crew their ship, as it is the best ship for their rank.  Now they have to carry med kits, if they want to go from mission to mission.  I understood that later those are moved to upgrades, which makes the situation better, sure.  Still they need to get the med kits from some where 1st.

 

I do not sink my ships, so far at least.  But if there is a moment when I have to make a decision, will I fight to the last man and try my best to win even against all odds.  Well, it would be a shitty thing to surrender, and not see if you could have won the match in the end.  Never been in this situation, but it can be that I will sink, just because I want to play the match to the end.  So the surrender mechanism is utter crap for a PvP player.  Neither I want that my opponent has to surrender, I want that he fights to the end.  If you are not a PvP player, competitive one, I admit, you probably would not care at all.

 

When I watch ice hockey, I do not want that one team says, "Cannot win, so will give up".  I want to see how well the teams will do, and I want to see that they try to the last second.  If nothing more, they should remove at least the officer dura loss.

 

I know people who quit the game because of the crew.  I can see how they need med kits after missions all the time, it is a pain.  The crew is in too big role.

 

Yes, I do not personally have any issues with the crew, but I am far from the poorest person in the game.  The crew does not cause any issues for my economy.  That does not mean that others would have the same possibilities.

 

Most players want to go from battle to battle, and have fun.  Now they are either paying a lot, or they are forced to do crafting.  The fun factor has decreased ->  Wont benefit the game.

 

If a ship cost you 70k, I think the crew should not cost more than 70k.  Probably less than 70k would make more sense.

 

...

 

Ok you can choose a ship full of Gold, or a ship full of Sugar.  Which one you take?

Yes, you would take the Gold ship for sure.  In NA you would take the ship full of sugar.  Full load of topacco in a TSnow, you can buy 2x 1st rates with that money.  (At least if you are a pirate)

 

The crew is in way too big role.

[akd]

Ok you can choose a ship full of Gold, or a ship full of Sugar.  Which one you take?

Yes, you would take the Gold ship for sure.  In NA you would take the ship full of sugar.  Full load of topacco in a TSnow, you can buy 2x 1st rates with that money.  (At least if you are a pirate)

 

The correct answer is a ship full of Flying Fish (which is to say that all sorts of prices are currently totally out of whack).

[Vernon Merrill]

The problem is trying to convey REAL LIFE sensibilities into a game where lives are meaningless. When your actual life is not in the line, it's easy to fight until the end. It's a tough mechanic to emulate.

[Bramborough]

Or you know, the only crew replacement option.  As there are not medkits for sale that do not come out to less than 500 gold per crew.  Nor do I have the materials to be able to build my own.  I could pick up the perk that reduces the cost of recruiting crew by 100 gold, which only reduces overall crew costs by a few thousand, but also then makes medkits the most expensive crew replacement option and also means I miss out on choosing a perk I actually want because the crew cost reduction perk basically becomes mandatory.

 

Anyway, whatever, I'm done.  My friends already left over this, I imagine others will too, not to mention all the new players that will be driven off by the absurd amount of time required to get any money to do anything.

 

It's just not that difficult, overly expensive, or time-consuming, to round up medkit ingredients.  

[Leku]

Most players want to go from battle to battle, and have fun. Now they are either paying a lot, or they are forced to do crafting. The fun factor has decreased -> Wont benefit the game.

Nope. If everyone will be able to take 1st rates on to the pvp, loose it and easly replace it, then its wrong.

Maybe you should look for some moba game where you can have "fun" all the time from match to match.

Mmos and sandboxes specially needs some kind of "time sink". And crew is actually interesting one, as it also brings risk in bringing out biggest ships.

I'll not even comment lazyness of someone here ... but if you refuse to play game and focus only on part of it, then expect consequences and stop whining. Otherwise switch game to some insta pew pew, overwatch is popular lately.

And playin as pvper fully is possible. But its very hard and needa good captain who knows when to strike and when not. And thinks about his consequences

[NickAbbottt]

I for one bought this game for the historical and role playing feel of commanding a warship/trade ship in the 18th century.

If I want to fight ships till they explode and marvel at my magnificence on my stat page, I play WOWS.

 

I believe the cost of crew to be a welcome and essential addition to the world the devs are trying to create.

I do feel it needs adjusting as does all the economy aspects of the game and the devs have stated that they are planning on an overhaul of the economy in the near future. So for now I am content to play and TEST (yes this is an alpha and we are testing the game) until new content is added, hopefully helping to make an even better game experience.

 

An example of why I think the crew cost system helps the devs create the world of 18th century naval warfare and economic enterprise.

 

The other day, myself in a frigate and another in a Constitution attacked a pirate in a Surprise. He tried to run but was driven toward the shore. The constitution was in position to fire broadsides so the Surprise turned away from the shore and tried to run upwind and use his speed advantage, leaving the Constitution lagging behind. I fortunately guessed his intentions when he started coming about and was able to lay across his escape path to windward. I fired a single double broadside into his hull and, upon seeing his position hopeless, struck his colours.

 

Now this could have dragged on and on with a drawn out chase, but to save his crew (as they cost quite a bit as opposed to being actual lives) and all our time, he surrendered. Making the whole event a satisfying and pretty damn realistic engagement.

 

I myself surrendered a Bellona to 2 Trincomalees after they cut my rigging to shreds and got in a few good rakes. The fight lasted a good amount of time and I tried to cause enough damage for them to withdraw, but, seeing my crew numbers start to dwindle, I ultimately chose to surrender to save the majority of my crew (as replacing 650 crew is damned expensive!). I could have remained there taking fire for many many more minutes wasting everyone's time and losing all my crew! Again, a satisfying and realistic turn of events.

 

I agree that after crew loses in missions you can come out with not much reward, so i now play smart rather than rushing straight in to keep my crew alive! Also, playing fleet missions, particularly with friends can seriously reduce the amount of crew loss and damage and earn you a tidy profit (especially after demasting, graping and boarding a santi!). I'm not saying you have to play with others, but in a multiplayer game it does make sense.

 

Regards

 

Nick

[ajffighter86]

Every time someone complains about money being too hard to get in the game, the developers do something that absolutely breaks the game.

 

Does anyone remember last winter when missions paid so much money, we had massive inflation? They had to cap mission payouts at $5,000 regardless of rank, and it still took ages for the economy to stabilize again.

 

So new players complained about money being hard to get. The "solution" was that money was made stupidly easy to get. The resulting inflation actually meant that the least wealthy players needed to get even MORE money to buy the ships they wanted. It didn't solve their money grinding issues at all.

 

I believe we may need two different types of servers when the game releases. I know the prevailing opinions on 'splitting the community' but I see no other alternative.

 

One server will just be bang-bang shoot'em up combat, but you won't gain experience or need gold. Just pick your ship and go. Maybe you can sail any ship you want, so everyone can go ahead and fight each other in 1st rates all the time (which I think will eventually get boring, but I digress). It will be a purely sandbox server. Nothing transfers over from this server to other servers, since nothing was risked nor lost.

 

The other type of server will be for players like myself who want a little more depth and challenge to the experience of the 18th century, economic hardships included.

Edited August 7, 2016 by ajffighter86

[Cmdr RideZ]

I do not sink my ships, so far at least.  But if there is a moment when I have to make a decision, will I fight to the last man and try my best to win even against all odds.  Well, it would be a shitty thing to surrender, and not see if you could have won the match in the end.  Never been in this situation, but it can be that I will sink, just because I want to play the match to the end.

 

I finally ended up to a situation to ask from myself should I surrender.  It left my head soon after, the answer was no.

 

It is true that I should have surrendered at one point when it was inevitable, but..  I did not.

 

The battle was really nice, even tho we lost it, and in process lost my ship + crew + officer as well.  I think the officer dura is the only thing that matters, just because there will be a small grind after 9 more lives.  It decreases the fun factor at some point...  Don't like the idea of not fun.

 

I do understand still, that with traders this would not work once again.  Traders have a specific role in NA, creating the OW PvP scenarios that makes the game even better.  But for combat ships, I do not like it.

 

In other games, PvP matches are sometimes won when you are almost dead but you are still able to pull 4 more kills and win the match.  I think this should be in every game, including Naval Action.  Yes, it is not realistic, but it is how it is.  Those moments or a possibility for that moment, are worth your ship, crew and officer.

 

 

 

 

...Don't like the idea of not fun.

[Bach]

I finally ended up to a situation to ask from myself should I surrender. It left my head soon after, the answer was no.

It is true that I should have surrendered at one point when it was inevitable, but.. I did not.

The battle was really nice, even tho we lost it, and in process lost my ship + crew + officer as well. I think the officer dura is the only thing that matters, just because there will be a small grind after 9 more lives. It decreases the fun factor at some point... Don't like the idea of not fun.

I do understand still, that with traders this would not work once again. Traders have a specific role in NA, creating the OW PvP scenarios that makes the game even better. But for combat ships, I do not like it.

In other games, PvP matches are sometimes won when you are almost dead but you are still able to pull 4 more kills and win the match. I think this should be in every game, including Naval Action. Yes, it is not realistic, but it is how it is. Those moments or a possibility for that moment, are worth your ship, crew and officer.

...Don't like the idea of not fun.

You have a good point of view on this IF individual one time PvP battles were all this game was about. That's not what we have. You want to fight to the death 6v6 and enjoy a tough contest to the end. I get that. To achieve that the game just needs to give you free ships and a situation or comm chat to generate 6v6 battles. For you that would be fun. For me I get bored with that stuff after a week or so. The sequences of moves become repetitive, certain ship designs and mods become common and there are no puzzles to be solved. Just buttons to punch. For me your fun is not always my version of fun.

The game needs pvp players to need to buy things to create an Econ game. It needs an Econ game because some players love Econ and strategic logistics challenges to over come. The game needs Econ players to haul goods so hunter style players can do what they love and hunt them. The game needs hunting style players so PvP can hunt them while defending RVR goals. It needs RVR goals for teams of player to participate in grand strategies.

Long story short. We have to create a balanced life cycle of interdependent players to offer a game for most everyone. And that means you need to buddy up with an Econ player that can make cheap med kits for you in exchange for occasionally helping him somehow.

Edited August 9, 2016 by Bach

[KrakkenSmacken]

 

I believe we may need two different types of servers when the game releases. I know the prevailing opinions on 'splitting the community' but I see no other alternative.

 

One server will just be bang-bang shoot'em up combat, but you won't gain experience or need gold. Just pick your ship and go. Maybe you can sail any ship you want, so everyone can go ahead and fight each other in 1st rates all the time (which I think will eventually get boring, but I digress). It will be a purely sandbox server. Nothing transfers over from this server to other servers, since nothing was risked nor lost.

 

The other type of server will be for players like myself who want a little more depth and challenge to the experience of the 18th century, economic hardships included.

 

Perhaps two different play styles rather than two different types of server.

 

For example a commissioned officer style of play, entered into by choice, where money is not a factor in any way.  You can not own, you can not build, you care nothing for resources of economy. Your character owns nothing, but can requisition a ship and crew from your country based on rank which is determined entirely on your rate of success.  (Crew survival being a big factor in determining success)

 

Rank for this play style however can go DOWN if you do poorly, rather than a endless climb to a top plateau.  Fight and do well, and you can take out 1st rates all day long, fight and do poorly, and its back to the cutters for you.  

 

In this way just being in a different play style (fight only) does not insure these players will eventually be an endless supply of high cost ships that upset the economic balances, but rather a balanced source of combat focused play.  

Edited August 9, 2016 by KrakkenSmacken

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

Let's get back on the topic of feedback on the crew management update.

 

Thanks.

[ajffighter86]

Is it really off-topic though? I ask seriously.

 

It has been apparent since day one of OW there are two different types of players. There are those with busy lives that do not want to spend hours getting into the fine details of the game (i.e. crew management, crafting, even sailing), and there are those of us who want a fully fleshed-out open world experience.

 

And again, I do not see much chance of compromise between the two sides that will make either happy. Asking for feedback on crew management when half of the replies are going to be from people who will hate the system no matter what you do with it, is putting the cart before the horse, in my opinion. We need to first address the different play-styles, and then you can ask those who actually desire the crew management aspect how it can be improved. Then you can get feedback without all the 'my kid poops his diaper every 5 minutes and I don't have time to grind money for crew' replies.

[Skully]

Examples of how the system works

1) If you captured a Trincomalee in a Constitution you will have to assign crew to Trincomalee and sail back under crewed in both ships. Once you arrive to port you will hire the crew again.

2) If your group lost a good amount of crew during heavy battle - you become more vulnerable for the next battle

3) You sail a cutter and your friend captures a Santisima for you. If you claim it you will not be able to sail a Santisima if its minimum crew is above 40. You will have to sink her.

The examples didn't come to pass, because as a high level powergamer I sail with 1100 total crew regardless of assigned crew.

So I cap the Trincomalee and sail both fully crewed.

Any crew lost on my Constitution I reassign from the pool of total crew.

Claiming the Santisma, I wish out 800 crew from the Cutters hold to sail away with both ships.

To make this work in accordance with the examples, the mechanic needs to leave a portion of crew as "left in port".

Or we can inventory playstyles and potentially make suggestions that better align.

Which parts do you want to keep out of this specific topic to open up as new ones, Henry?

Edited August 11, 2016 by Skully

[Sinbad]

Sorry for my ignorance as i havnt read the posts made but please add sliders,just some simple sliders atop crew stations to manage them more effectively,anyone else who has suggested this,kudos to you as well.

[Bach]

Is it really off-topic though? I ask seriously.

It has been apparent since day one of OW there are two different types of players. There are those with busy lives that do not want to spend hours getting into the fine details of the game (i.e. crew management, crafting, even sailing), and there are those of us who want a fully fleshed-out open world experience.

And again, I do not see much chance of compromise between the two sides that will make either happy. Asking for feedback on crew management when half of the replies are going to be from people who will hate the system no matter what you do with it, is putting the cart before the horse, in my opinion. We need to first address the different play-styles, and then you can ask those who actually desire the crew management aspect how it can be improved. Then you can get feedback without all the 'my kid poops his diaper every 5 minutes and I don't have time to grind money for crew' replies.

I appears that this issue will eventually resolve itself. Those without busy lives will eventually be selling medi-kits at below NPC costs. So then those with busy lives can simply buy those player made kits.

Four ways to replace crew. Players will just need to choose the method that works best for them:

Buy from NPC - just takes lots of money and no time

Buy from players - takes some money and no time

Player made via factories - takes some money and some time

Player made from fishing - takes less money but a lot of time.

Edited August 11, 2016 by Bach

[Rogues Salute]

When I first started playing I found the sailing long distances a "game breaking" tedium. but then I found out I could sail to a free port ONCE buy a port and after that I could get my ships delivered after  battles.

 

So I sailed to Le a Varce, then La Mona, then Plymouth and I had the time of my life sending ships to plymouth and then I was close enough to enemy capitals to  actually find a PvP fight within ten minutes of setting off on patrol by myself in enemy waters.   I live in Australia and I can't play when the EU server is full so when I play the server population is LOW. I simple won't sail all the way across the map for few fights. It is hard enough being in enemy waters alone in my Agamemnon and being chased by 8 players !

 

PcE is of no interest to me whatsoever. 

 

I have so much trouble getting anyone to come out to Plymouth with me. They all don't want to sail out there even ONCE. Many of my clan mate have refused to do it even once. They say they rather just do an AI mission in front of Jamaca so they don't have to sail so far. 

 

And now you want to make all of us sail all the way over EVERY TIME !?!   And what i find really confusing is all the people saying this is a good idea?!? 

 

What game are they playing ?

 

Getting ships delivered IS crucial for EVERYONE who lives on the far side of the world and can't play at 3am when the server is full.   Sailing across the map by my self on an low server with practically no chance of interception is a ridiculous waste of my precious time

 

I thought the ship delivery after a battle was great.

 

One battle might last 20 or 30 minutes to win and capture a ship so it is still time consuming work but I gain experience at capturing ships and shooting and sailing. But sailing an hour or two across the map with NOTHING TO DO is crazy!  There is no navigation, no plotting, no sextants... or really anything at all to do while you slowly sail into the wind for no reason except wasting time ...

 

Please don't do it!  I'm not gonna threaten to stop playing but off the top of my head I can think of dozens of things I would rather do than fall asleep staring at the screen for an hour and a half while I sail from Jamaica to Plymouth

Edited September 13, 2016 by Rogues Salute