What beats the USS constitution?

[maturin]

A 5th Rate is anything 36 guns and up in that period. Exactly the sort of ship the American 44s were meant to destroy.

The British soon began building their own 24 pounder frigates.

[Pelgerean]

 I highly suggest for anyone to read "The Challenge". It is written by Andrew Lambert who is well known in terms of Naval History and its primary focus is the Naval War of 1812. 

 

I've read this as well, was a fascinating read and i used information from it regarding insurance posts on an earlier thread (talking about insurance rates not normally a good recommendation for a book but in this case i assure you it is worth a read)

 

Anyone wanting to know about the war of 1812 should read this book.

[Crankey]

I am not sure how the developers intend to run the games naval battles etc once going live. But remember that the Constitution was designed to be able to outfight any 'frigate' class one on one, outrun anything heavier and interrupt commerce in between, not unlike the Graf Spee of Deutschland class 'pocket battleship' in WWII.

 

The British answer was to build itself new heavy frigates and also to create Razee class ships as previously mentioned. Each had its own good and bad points. We also know that player ability can be a great leveller.

 

I'm looking forward to see what additional ships will be released and how match making will be handled.

[SerrialKiller]

I do not know if our navy had any ships build that vould keep up. The constitution is build in the new way and not the old way low hull lighter the upper hull as i can remember. You might need to look to the dutch ive not heard anything of my country ships jet but i can tell you the clippers and other ships where the fastes ones build.

[admin]

I am not sure how the developers intend to run the games naval battles etc once going live. But remember that the Constitution was designed to be able to outfight any 'frigate' class one on one, outrun anything heavier and interrupt commerce in between, not unlike the Graf Spee of Deutschland class 'pocket battleship' in WWII.

 

The British answer was to build itself new heavy frigates and also to create Razee class ships as previously mentioned. Each had its own good and bad points. We also know that player ability can be a great leveller.

 

I'm looking forward to see what additional ships will be released and how match making will be handled.

 

Original plan was this

 

Open world - no matchmaking. Your fleet finds a lonely 74 in hostile waters - its yours. Except for escorted convoys - where a player can buy an escort that will be brought to battle anywhere in the world (surprise for gankers). 

Fleet orders - (admiralty sending you to events) some matchmaking based on levels and battle ratings

[Don Alvarez]

I think measuring tonnage and boradside weights, on paper not much in the frigate class outdoes the Constitution.

 

However

 

At that time its hard to think of any other frigate as prepared for a fight as HMS Shannon. Broke drilled constantly, gunnery and boarding, and Shannon dismantled the Chesapeake in less than 15 minutes doubling her opponent's rate of fire. I think she would have been tough for anybody to beat that day.

[Destraex]

That was a lucky shot on her helm... 6 minutes in.

[Don Alvarez]

Maybe. Didn't Broke set up a gun specifically to make that shot?

[NorthernWolves]

So, I did a good bit of research on the Constitutions hull thickness and it's construction especially, specifically to compare it to the Victory's and what we know of the Bellona's.

I found that the Constitution at the waterline had a thicker hull than the Bellona class ships and only 1" less than the Victory's. And there's more, but I'll just start with that.

Before I get into the details of what I found, which the extent of regarding the construction, surprised me even, I want to ask what everyone in this thread knows about the Constitutions hull thickness and anything else regarding this aspect of her in combat. And her potential opponents, 74's and 3 deckers.

We know she has an inferior broadside weight to those two, and that's been discussed quite a bit, but what of 'armor' and hull strength and how it is represented in game?

[Robert Danforth]

I know the wood quality itself was a factor, she was made with good quality American timber. Timber that used to be used by England, but....

[Jean Ribault]

http://memberfiles.freewebs.com/49/72/79417249/photos/Eagle-visits-Baltimore-Harbor/USS%20Constellation%20baltimore%20Harbore%202011web.jpg

TBH I remember her being extensively rebuild near the civil war, but my understanding is that her restoration was to her 1797 specs.

 

That picture you posted is the stern of the ship that sits in Baltimore harbor.  I live there and have been on it.  Harborplace is off to the right in that pic.  Her restoration was a big deal here some years back

 

There's a fairly decent summary of the previous controversary on Wikipedia (the unsubstantiated but usually close encyclopedia), as Maturin mentioned above.  That ship in your picture was launched in 1854, and is modified rebuild from the original 1797 ship of the same name.  Here's the link to that read:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Constellation_(1854)

[Cragger]

Frigates operating in pairs. That was the order issued after the first losses of suffered by the British is that frigates would operate in pairs. Constitution wasn't unbeatable, her and her sister ships were built simply to overwhelm any other frigate in single ship action  with a competent crew. And ship to ship fights were the norm of the era especially for frigates being as they ranged far and wide as the scouts doing cruising duties. Hence where the term 'cruiser' came from in later eras.

 

Constitution is so famous because she was able to break out from the British blockade, defeat british warships, and run the blockade back into port three times. Constellation was actually the fastest of the ones built to the same design but never made it out of her blockade.

 

Chesapeake was significantly smaller and lighter of build then the others due to being altered by Josiah Fox from Humphrey's design (Humphrey's publicly disowned the Chesapeake as his design). President would have been a good example of one of the 'Big Six' originally started by Humphrey's being defeated if she hadn't been so crippled by running into a Sand bar in the harbor mouth due to harbor pilot error and if the Endymion had been able to successfully pursue her.

[Lord Vicious]

The constitution performance are more a propaganda thing then a real stuff.

 

She defeated only ships who never got a chance against his armor or weapon. and every victory was made gigantic by usa who needed a lot of internal propaganda at that time. there is even a story about constitution reaching ireland and destroyng an alcohol distillery and many other bullshitstory.

 

 

If not was a 4th rate with a frigs shape/design, nobody was talking about how a 4th rate defeated a couple of frigs and sloops.       

[akd]

Brewster Buffalo had highest win / loss ratio of any aircraft during WWII (or any aircraft ever, I think), therefore Brewster Buffalo was the best performing aircraft ever built.*

*which is to say drawing conclusions about technological superiority / inferiority based on battles that happened or didn't happen is flawed unless you can isolate out other factors.

Constitution is what it is: an SoL hull with a 24-pdr frigate armament. Both Americans and Brits went back to building smaller frigates after toying with such designs. Why? Such monsters can't stand in the line of battle due to armament, but nor do they efficiently accomplish the tasks of a frigate.

[Jan van Santen]

HMS Endymion was a 40-gun 5th Rate and captured Connie's sister ship, so no reason that couldn't work against Ol' Ironsides too, given the right conditions.

 

Not really....

to cut a long story short: President was beaten by a squad of 4 british ships, of which the Endymion (fastest ship of the RN, 14.4 knots) engaged first and slowed Decatur down.

[Enraged Ewok]

From what I've been reading of Roosevelt's Naval War of 1812, the crew was the deciding factor for the closely matched (on paper) engagements, ex. Chesapeake vs Shannon and Constitution vs Java. With the exception of the Shannon, the British ships on the American station tended to be very poor when it came to using the ships guns, despite in most cases being very good sailors and ship handlers. Despite controlling the engagement from the beginning, Java 's accuracy was incredibly poor. By comparison, the Constitution shot the crap out of her and displayed excellent gunnery.

 

The same occurs with the sides flipped when Chesapeake engaged the Shannon, where Shannon was firing off two broadsides (and firing far more accurately) to the Chesapeake's one. By the time Broke boarded the Chesapeake, the only crew able to organize any resistance were the ship's marine complement, and the handful of remaining regulars that had transferred from the Constitution.

Edited June 1, 2016 by Enraged Ewok

[Haratik]

Not really....

to cut a long story short: President was beaten by a squad of 4 british ships, of which the Endymion (fastest ship of the RN, 14.4 knots) engaged first and slowed Decatur down.

 

In the end, it wasn't Endymion who captured the President, though she did the most telling damage on the ship.  It was the HMS Pomone who fired the last shots and whose captain accepted her surrender.

 

That being said, I wonder which ship would win in a scenario where both frigates happened upon the other, no escorting ships, no offsetting situations, etc.

[Malachi]

In an Endymion vs. President scenario, my money´s on the President.

 

fastest ship of the RN, 14.4 knots

 

 

She carried 18-pounders when she set that record, though. With her regular armament, her top speed was 13.6 knots.

[akd]

A more interesting match-up: what if HMS Majestic had faced USS President alone?

 

[maturin]

Majestic would win if the gunners were halfway competent. Reference Indy v Droits d'Homme. Lineships don't surrender to inferior opponents even when helpless.

[BungeeLemming]

In 1813 Majestic was razee'd to be a 56 gunner.  (With a compliment of 495men.)

Basically the equivalent of what President's design is more or less aimed at.

 

That means they were pretty much equal opponents.

Porpose build 52 guns vs razee'd 56 guns.

 

The Majestic was armed with 28 x 42pd carronades whereas the president was armed with 22 long 12s on the upper decks.

 

The advantage is on the Razee's side. However. Everyone knows what an impact crew has towards the outcome of a duel

[akd]

President:

32x 24pdr

20/22x 42pdr Carronade

Majestic:

28x 32pdr

28x 42pdr Carronade

The ships would have been roughly the same size (President a little longer and narrower.)

I wonder if plans for Majestic as a razee exist?

[Sella]

Not really a plan but here is a picture that has been posted by Mighty_Alex. Original post:http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/3750-list-of-ships-and-other-vessels-in-the-game/?p=223226

 

[Alex Connor]

That's Saturn, an Arrogant class 74 razeed at the same time as the Majestic.

 

Could use as a guide for cutting down Majestic though.

 

[Bulwyf]

Six Frigates talks of the politics involved in getting ships in the water for the practically non-existant U.S. Navy and the political and social ramifications of the U,S. Navy having those ships. The War of 1812 was pretty much lost to the young United States untill the British citizenry learned of their defeats at sea and on the Great Lakes. They were sick of war and Briton still had Bonparte to deal with so peace with the U.S. was called for. It also delves deeply into the design and on and off construction of the ships. Beffore I read that book I had little idea of what went in to the building of a wooden war ship. I learned that J. Humphreys was a genius, the oak and live oak that grew on our contenant was REALLY good wood, and that the man, Pres. John Adams, was forward thinking and knew that for survival, a strong navy is a must. It is a very good read.

 

I have stated on these forums that Constie was the greatest wooden war ship ever built and I say so because of that book and others on the subject. She still swims and still sails. The hull is not hogging thanks to the diagional riders which were removed in the early 20th century but replaced in I believe the 1980's because she was hogging, and that inovation went in to making her deserve her nick name, Old Iron Sides. I love other ships from the age of sail. Victory not only had a lot of guns, but I have read that she had great sailing qualities. The replicas of L'Hermione and Rose(now Surprise) are ships to admire simply because they exist in our time. The British frigates, the French frigates, the British 74"s. I'd love to see and sail in any one of these.

 

Sorry to go on so much but the "historian" comments got me riled a bit. Just because I am from the U.S. does not mean to me that if it's not ours it's crap. Being an american author and historian does not mean biased. Six Frigates was simply a good story that the author wanted to tell. I have not read any of Gingrich's books, but I have heard some of his conclusions and feel that his theories, at least on the death of General Patton could have some merrit. Don't dissmiss someone just because they are from the U.S.. However, if you think that someone is a right wing looney from just what you see on T.V., and that he is not a "real" historian, that is your jumped to conclusion, but unless you've read him, and made your own conclusions, you have no right to judge. These forums should not be political.

 

From your statement I am unsure if your saying that the US won the war of 1812 or was winning it till the British sat up and took notice. Clearly the US lost that war as their invasion of Canada was defeated.

 

I would disagree that the Constitution was the greatest wooden ship ever built, far from it in fact. I do agree with your sentiment about how great it would be to sail on any of these ships.