Jump to content
Game-Labs Forum

Forthcoming hot fixes next week - ships of the line penetration discussion


Recommended Posts

1. Do you consider frigate battles fun (compared to older versions)?


 


Mixed feelings.  Prior to all these penetration changes I routinely would try and 1v1 connies in my frigate, relying on superior sailing and carronades to try and win.  With the new penetration changes, anything shots not square on just bounce off, so trying to S-fight a bigger ship just leads to frustration.  So now I no longer try and fight the ship class just above me, which I find sad.


 


3.  Should marines be tweaked?


 


I feel that, in general, all of the boarding upgrades are too powerful.  For example, someone with all boarding mods will absolutely crash someone with all sailing/fighting mods, usually in less than a couple rounds once boarding commences.  However, the ship with the sailing/fighting mods does not insta-win in under 2 minutes the person without sailing/fighting mods.  Hence, I think all of the boarding mods need reduced.


  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

We need to fix the problem of people abandoning the game first! Please implement some form of reward for just logging in, whether its a treasure chest that ranks up for each day you log in consecutively or some form of rested experience... or free ships. Something just to get people to log in is all we need.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

this is no begging thread - the devs are asking for feedback.

 

when players leave there are multiple reasons.

If the player thinks the gamemechanics are broken no gift will get them back.

I have a clanmate who left for a while because of the current damage model. And this thread already shows that there are plenty of players thinking that way.

 

Since our clan's main ship for pvp is the constitution and since she still is a frigate I cannot say that the frigate fight feels good.

Maybe for the vessels up to trinco/ essex.

But Conny is nearly as boring as ships of the line.

Yes you are more nimble.

But it takes ages to be sunk. And with the prominent chain action its more a question of who is gonna be de-sailed first.

In the typical environment we fight - outnumbered - this gameplay is not a lot of fun.

 

 

Pre 9.8 our group was doing very well against uneven odds.

We formed up, full speed ahead and since we had the superior position, sailing discipline and communication we stood good chances. Beeing 4-6 ppl we could handle a gank of 6-10 enemies, depending on their ship composition.

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Overall i do like the damage mod, after the hotfix it did improve rhings slighhtly better from the first roll out, frigates have been good fun and i have been enjoying the line fights with our SoL's, even though we dont get to fullyfinish some rear admiral missions (AI like to take off and slug it out with some other AI) but they are still enjoyable, if you feel further tweaking is nessacery then i cant help you as i enjoy the mod now.

As for marines the idea is there i just think it needs to be slightly changed.

Gold Marines only takes up 25% of the total boarding crew, so if your boarding crew is say 200 then there are 50 marines on board and they are the only things prepared to board so you start with 25 prep before engaging to board, this is justa rough theory, someone migt have a better suggestion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Do you consider frigate battles fun (compared to older versions)? - No
  • Do you consider ships of the line indecisive historical battles fun? - No
  • Should marines be tweaked? - Nerfed by at least 50%
Edited by ITFHunter
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1. Yes, love it, except for Connie which is really not a frigate at the moment.

This ship should have for regular stats something like 5000HP, and 70-72 thickness... No more. It would still be the most powerful and resistant frigate in game, which is her place.... Not a SOL competitor. And an increase in top speed to 12.15 12.17 to make her more close from her original strength : speed .

2. Not tried and will not.

3. Yes : marines are an auto win button in PVP boarding, and such things should be avoided. B

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1) The new damage model is awesome. Frigate combat has never been better.

 

2) I don't mind that SOLs are tough, almost impossible, to sink. It is as it should be. Bigger gripe: They should be relatively rare, insanely expensive to maintain, and treated by nations like crown jewels. Keep it as-is.

 

3) Boarding (or, boreding) is dull and ahistorical at present. I don't mind the rock/paper/scissors part of it; I didn't buy this game to ram people and play a minigame, then pretend I am a competent captain. Right now, rage boarders can one- or two-shot a massive SOL. There's no way that should be happening. 

 

Nerf Marines along with all boarding upgrades. Not saying there isn't a place for boarding, but it shouldn't be a substitute for actual combat, or combat skill.

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

here is a gun test from a new producted gun from HMS Vasa the gun is made by materials that was ther at the time and the shipside is made in same materials and way as the Vasa was build. gun and shipside was taken from how they was made in year 1600-1700.

 

 

Edited by Kronans
  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1. Yes except connie rather tough (maybe historical who am I to say)

2. Getting used to it and think ultimately it will be an improvement.

3. Marines I don't have a particular issue with marines but I second the comments from above that some of the other options (grenades, muskets, deck guns) appear relatively ineffective compared to attack/defend. Plus in my geographical location I have poor and variable lag and this gives me a disadvantage in last minute change tactic in the current boarding mode.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1. Yes except connie rather tough (maybe historical who am I to say)

 

 

 

It is, in fact. The Constitution was huge by frigate standards, longer than the Bellona, for example. At the waterline, the hull was close to two feet thick, which is comparable to a ship of the line. 

 

For all intents and purposes, it is an SOL minus a second gun deck.

 

Edit: This is a good read, FWIW. Even if it has a point of view. 

Edited by Avid Indoorsman
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1.Do you consider frigate battles fun (compared to older versions)?

 

I like the whole setup up to 4th rate the most but I still feel that the yards control, especially when turning them against the wind force is totally flat and linear. Tweaking is probably needed especially when turning the yards through the wind force. Also rolling up of the sails canvas is also linear.

 

The combat damage feels good although the catastrophic leaks are back and are rather easy to achieve.

 

So all in all the combat feels okay but definitely the yard controls / wind attitudes need to be reviewed.

 

 

2. Do you consider ships of the line indecisive historical battles fun?

 

The decisiveness of action must be a player driven mechanic and not relying too much on a hand-in-hand arcade mode.

 

How many ships were sunk in action in Trafalgar ? On the same vein, and a more decisive battle, strategically, was San Domingo ( follow up to Trafalgar ). How many sinkings ?

 

I suggest a crew morale mechanic to be devised and keep "wooden walls" that way.

 

 

3. Should marines be tweaked?

 

Yes. It is best to be tied to Marines Officers than being a sterile upgrade. I specially dislike the percentage ratio given there were specific marines detachments per rate, ex. 5th rate 36/38 gun frigates would have a 48 marines complement.

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is, in fact. The Constitution was huge by frigate standards, longer than the Bellona, for example. At the waterline, the hull was close to two feet thick, which is comparable to a ship of the line.

For all intents and purposes, it is an SOL minus a second gun deck.

Edit: This is a good read, FWIW. Even if it has a point of view.

Indeed... But how many HP did it have versus a standard frigate? (sarcastic question... )

It needs to be the toughest frigate for sure... But there should not be such a gap between average 5 th rate and the Connie. Being 10-15% (which give 5000-5500 hp) stronger than the average 18pd frigate of her time is already great, and the trinconmalee for example were already heavy frigates her time.

Compacting HP difference for all frigate was really great last patch, .... Connie should have been included in this rebalance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Conny is 7ft longer than the Bellona.

You cannot have a system loosely bound on hull area and then randomly assign a weird number to the conny which is not based on the idea which applies to all other vessels.

 

Conny needs to be much more expensive to build.

one might even give her only 3 duras despite beeing a 4th rate.

But she is state of the art - and inexpensive.

two things which just wont fit well in my head.

(not saying these things should be done - its a personal feeling)

 

However. This thread is not about the conny. There already are plenty of those.

Feel free to post in one of those.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Do you consider frigate battles fun (compared to older versions)?

While i generally like the new damage system, I think especially frigate battles should be more fun, at the price of realism. Frigate fights should be quick and hard encounters where sinking is a very likely outcome (especially since frigates are cheap). I dont like frigate battles which last for hours or where most of the ships lost are due to capturing rather than damaging. Frigates should be more like cannon plattforms, which are generally more potent in hitting the enemy rather than taking hits. So increasing low class cannon dps and penetration while little bit decreasing frigate armor would be a good idea for more fin.

  • Do you consider ships of the line indecisive historical battles fun?

They can be fun, but with another port battle machanic. If you need to destroy the enemy ships to win the BR, then these indecisive battles are no fun. If you need to cap zones, it can be fun, because manouvering and organisation are more important than just guns.

  • Should marines be tweaked?

They are maybe too powerful. Boarding with exceptional marines against an enemy without marines is too easy, often decided in some few turns. I mean marines are good but they should not be godlike killers of seamen.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Conny needs to be much more expensive to build.

one might even give her only 3 duras despite beeing a 4th rate.

But she is state of the art - and inexpensive.

two things which just wont fit well in my head.

(not saying these things should be done - its a personal feeling)

 

However. This thread is not about the conny. There already are plenty of those.

Feel free to post in one of those.

 

I  think too some kind of factor should apply to this top of the line ships to simulate the dificulty on building those designs , not only connie but 2nd and specialy 1st rates ...I understand the durabilities system works in that direction but is has probed as insuficient to balance its use with "lesser" ships. maybe escalating labor hour cost can aid with this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

   Should marines be tweaked?

They are maybe too powerful. Boarding with exceptional marines against an enemy without marines is too easy, often decided in some few turns. I mean marines are good but they should not be godlike killers of seamen.

 

 

   how many real warships up from frigates sailed withouth any marines complement?   I think making them being mandatory is quite right, upgrade color being a decission of how many saiors you spare for them..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sanity check questions

  • Do you consider frigate battles fun (compared to older versions)?
  • Do you consider ships of the line indecisive historical battles fun?
  • Should marines be tweaked?
What else did we miss?
  • Yes. Gunnery skills, sailing, patience, and actual broadside-to-broadside matters more. It is still quite easy to sink a frigate, but unless you really outgun your target's armour you need to do it from up close, and I like that. Put a really high emphasis on shooting sails and masts though, and they seemed to go away awfully fast in 9.8.2, but since that's already an identified issue there's nothing more to say about that.

  • I do. HOWEVER! They cannot be added into the game without giving incentive for them. Either the loss of a ship (especially sinking with all hands still on board) should be so punished that getting away is a relief, or there needs to be something that actually appears as a reward for partaking in and "winning" such engagements (i.e. wanting to and being able to continue battle, but being denied by the enemy sailing away). Using the 'carrot and stick' method you (the developers) can make people happy about undecisive engagements, which although not as lucrative and rewarding as decisive ones still makes it worth the effort and time spent.

  • Not sure if marines are too powerful, but they most certainly are too hard to get. For a proper marines detachment onboard any man-of-war you need the green ('common' quality) marines, i.e. 20% of all hands on board the ship are marines. Having those 20% marines also makes it possible to at least defend against a boarder and disengage without catastrophic losses. However actually getting those marines has 0% to do with skill or effort, and 100% to do with luck, and that is not a good system. EVERYONE should be able to have marines on board their ship.

    Maybe Marines should be standardized more or less according to historical ship detachment sizes and be removed completely as an upgrade, and instead boost other boarding-focused upgrades to make those proportionally powerful with non-boarding upgrades. One upgrade for this could be one that only boost the marines' fighting capability, be it called "Experienced Marines" or something. Also, maybe there should be some upgrade to give synergy with not having an automatic super-advantage in boarding because of boarding upgrades, like "Heavy boarding ramps" or "Extra grappling hooks" or something to make the Disengage action take one or two turns longer (i.e. the opposite of Boarding Axes) so that they get sufficient time to win a boarding if they fight well.

advanced warning:

there are 2 things that might change dramatically in the next content patch that are long overdue (ETA 20-25 days)

  • fixes of bugs and improvement of old acceleration and deceleration behavior of vessels
  • fixes of turning, terminal speed and rudder influence on speed. 
  • What does this mean? What will the change in ship behaviour be?

  • I would personally love it if turning realistically became slower so that doing the right/wrong maneuver matters more. Now with it being harder to damage ships I think there is room for this change. If you for example are forced into irons and get several ships passing you to fire on the same broadside you will suffer dearly since you'll be stuck longer with slower turning speeds, but the enemy also had a much harder time to set you up for it and still need to get close and at a good angle to do damage, and thus should be properly "rewarded" (i.e doing lots of damage) for the effort and skill.

    The ability to "angle-tank" right now is pretty high since it's so easy to toss your ship around, and that makes it very hard to set someone up for proper damage. It would be nice to at least approach a break-even between turning and reloading. IRL it was always faster to reload than to turn any reasonably big ship, and here it is the other way around. We should try to find some in-between to make it a more skill- and situation-based choice. After all, when I can zig-zag behind someone in a 4th rate to alternate broadsides something is wrong.

Edited by Inkompetent
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

What is missing in the PB is the possibility to "instant" sink a boat.

In case of being "outnumbered" by the enemy, it shall be possible to put all the "power" in the early battle to try to sink quickly boats. For example, decrease the number of leak needed to sink a boat. Allow to load a "double charge", that will take twice longer to load, and then 4 or 5 time longer to load the next single charge (the boat would be "out of battle" for a period of time).

 

It would give more "option" on the battle field, more tactical option at the begining, greater importance to have the Wind over the ennemy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

here is a gun test from a new producted gun from HMS Vasa the gun is made by materials that was ther at the time and the shipside is made in same materials and way as the Vasa was build. gun and shipside was taken from how they was made in year 1600-1700.

 

 

 

This is an excellent video! Clearly showing the real killer of those days, not the projectile but the splinters...

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  1. Do you consider frigate battles fun (compared to older versions)?

    Jep, but a little more adjustments should been made. Causing Leaks is not that critical and gamechanging that it should be. And 9pdr till 18pdr need a little penetration buff.

     

  2. Do you consider ships of the line indecisive historical battles fun?

    Not jet, the armor of the ships of the line still seems to hard. Why not lower armor and give accordingly buff to HP?

     

  3. Should marines be tweaked?

    Till they have no funktion exept boarding... no.

Edited by karotte
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  1. Do you consider frigate battles fun (compared to older versions)?   A battle in OW, frigates vs other frigates could be fun, but not in the port battle, hard to make a damage on the tower.

Do you consider ships of the line indecisive historical battles fun?   what? The reason of  playing this game is the 1ST ship!  30v30 1st ships!! awesome!! 

Should marines be tweaked?    i think no need to do any changes

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is an excellent video! Clearly showing the real killer of those days, not the projectile but the splinters...

Exactly, and as can be seen in that video the splinters produced by a proper gun are quite pathetic. Some harmful bits of wood are shot out, but most of the splinters produced there wouldn't do anything at all unless they hit you in the eye, and barely then. This is exactly why carronades were invented, so that you could hit with a large ball at as low velocity as possible while still penetrating, so that you produce large splinters instead of small. This means more damage both to the ship and to the crew.

All of this is already abstracted in the guns' damage values, as for example long guns have less damage than mediums do, reason being that they produce less splinters.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with inkompetent, SOL battle can and should be often "indecisive slug fests" and that the game should reward and punish accordingly.

Sinking something should give a really "woooo!" feeling, survival should be essential, and failure punished by the National navies.

 

Most SOL engagements at fleet level were often indecisive with a lot of damage but not massive ship sinkings, which is what made such victories as Trafalgar and the Nile such shocking "decisive" victories.

 

The players should be lead to expect a similar result and enjoy it, with tension being on "not losing" your ship, and big rewards if you do manage to do some serious damage. SOL Risk / Reward balance should give SOL captains sweaty palms every time they take their beasts into battle, but also allow them to enjoy the superiority they give over non "Warships". This will help prevent what a lot of players (including myself) worried about, which was a preponderance of 1st and 2nd rates sailing everywhere as the default choice of captains.

 

Also regarding boarding etc. The boarding mechanic should be changed if possible to look nicer and be more enjoyable, also Marines should not be hard to get. Hopefully crew mechanics change will change that? Short range engagements encourage boarding so it should be made more appealing and fairer.

Edited by VonVolks
  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...