Paint it black

[Hethwill]

Repeating myself to add common sense to the thread:

 

The game is not broken, it is not finished yet. Subtle, but obvious difference.

 

Listen to this man. He is as smart as a dutchie goes and half as smart as a proper freebooter could be.

 

Out of jokes it is indeed the perspective. Sometimes, just sometimes, a player or group of players is thrown into discomfort.

 

This can be game mechanics, psychological or social, or simply the nature of the player not wanting to feel comfortable.

 

And then players go try diferente ways of playing, diferente nations, diferente activities and test something diferente or the same old same old in a different manner.

[Grunhilde Serenity]

The idiots that claim leadership over my nation is almost enough to make me hoist the black regardless of whether or not you think the game is broken. I'm not sure what OP is hoping to achieve by asking people to ditch their home waters, or why he thinks it would force the developers of the game to fix something that is still in development. If you truly want to change things OP, then contribute watertight suggestions that would raise the standard of gameplay, rather than asking everyone to bring the standard down.

[Wang]

We don't tolerate people who misrepresent facts about us here. 

 

• Alliances/Politics and pirate rework was one of the issues on the development priorities thread.
• It was voted as N1 priority by players
• We are working on it

We always deliver what we promise. And we always focus on what players want (ships or features). Thats the opposite of stubborn

If you continue twisting the facts (a-la lying) - you won't be welcome here any longer.

 

 

So i must ask, what are the new pirate mechanics?  Is there a ETA on it?  

[Wang]

The idiots that claim leadership over my nation is almost enough to make me hoist the black regardless of whether or not you think the game is broken. I'm not sure what OP is hoping to achieve by asking people to ditch their home waters, or why he thinks it would force the developers of the game to fix something that is still in development. If you truly want to change things OP, then contribute watertight suggestions that would raise the standard of gameplay, rather than asking everyone to bring the standard down.

 

 

There are a multitude of threads already on the forums, discussing reworking pirate mechanics.  

 

Now this game is a open world sandbox, so due to that we are allowed to work how we like in this sandbox.  Now the devs have asked us to test the game, testing means trying to brake it.  If we are testers it is our duty to do so.  This is a test.  

 

If we ignore the broken mechanics and don't try to brake the game, these issues will never get fixed.  This is about breaking the game to bring the standards up, not just discussing on the forums on how to raise the standards.  Actions speak louder than words.

 

I am surprised at the push back about this idea,  as if im trying to kill the game.  Last thing im trying to achieve,  I view it more like a bush fire. Burn it all down so that new life can grow.  

[Red Jack Walker]

Wang, your intentions are good but solution you are proposing here is wrong in my opinion: it will add troubles to troubles, making even more difficult for all people involved to test and develope the game in a proper manner. Moreover I don't think the game is broken at all: it is more "incomplete" and "unfinished" (we are in a pre-release status after all). Surely Pirates need a rework (they have a big-big potential still to be fully unlocked and can't continue to be "just another Nation with a cool flag"), but a Faction becoming "hegemonic" is totally another issue and probably should be addressed separately. We had many Nations reduced to one port in the past (have to admit not only by SORRY pirates), so probably we should create some specific mechanics to avoid that thing in the future. Give Devs some credit: they probably have a clear roadmap in mind and, in the meanwhile, let's try to not take advantage of flawed mechanics in order to keep the game playable for as many players is possible. The more players we manage to keep in the game, the better for the future of Naval Action will be, and the good of the game should always be our priority. 

Edited May 25, 2016 by Red Jack Walker

[Shunziji]

So am i wrong by assuming that when you show your kids to skate, you push them and watch the fall... Just for the fun of teaching the lesson of what it feels like to have a broken arm and a concussion ?

 

Am i being rude if i say this post is one of the most stupid idea a saw in my life ?

[Wang]

So am i wrong by assuming that when you show your kids to skate, you push them and watch the fall... Just for the fun of teaching the lesson of what it feels like to have a broken arm and a concussion ?

 

Am i being rude if i say this post is one of the most stupid idea a saw in my life ?

 

You explain the kid hey this is how you skate, then you send him to skate.  Do you lecture your child on how to skate for 4 months?  Showing diagrams, explaining each and every technique, after a month let them touch a skate, second month let them 'virtually skate'' then maybe the third month you allow them to skate in a arena that is covered in soft floors and walls...i can go on and on.  

 

I think we have discussed more than enough on alternative pirate mechanics....its time to push the kids out to skate.

[Wang]

Wang, your intentions are good but solution you are proposing here is wrong in my opinion: it will add troubles to troubles, making even more difficult for all people involved to test and develope the game in a proper manner. Moreover I don't think the game is broken at all: it is more "incomplete" and "unfinished" (we are in a pre-release status after all). Surely Pirates need a rework (they have a big-big potential still to be fully unlocked and can't continue to be "just another Nation with a cool flag"), but a Faction becoming "hegemonic" is totally another issue and probably should be addressed separately. We had many Nations reduced to one port in the past (have to admit not only by SORRY pirates), so probably we should create some specific mechanics to avoid that thing in the future. Give Devs some credit: they probably have a clear roadmap in mind and, in the meanwhile, let's try to not take advantage of flawed mechanics in order to keep the game playable for as many players is possible. The more players we manage to keep in the game, the better for the future of Naval Action will be, and the good of the game should always be our priority. 

 

I dont doubt at all that the developers are hugely undermanned and completely swarmed by the endless amount of features, bugs, and balancing that is needed in this game.  I dont envy them at all.  The difference is i do believe the game is broken in many aspects, and the pirate mechanic is a major one in my opinion.  I give the developers huge amount of credit for what they have created so far!  It is a beautiful game.  Personally though i believe that the way it is being developed at the moment is wrong.

 

The great achievement of this game is the battle's themselves.  The simply fact that a cannon ball can boucne off two ships and hit a third is amazing, and blew me away when i first played NA.  I would of personally forgone any change to the battle's since release (eg. crew changes, land in battles, armor reworking) for more expansion of the open world mechanics  (pirate rework, diplomacy, exploration etc etc.)  for the simply fact that the open world itself is the area that is massively lacking in this game.  Instead of fine tuning the one thing in the game that blew us all away and kept bringing us back, the part of it that is lacking and is a MASSIVE part of the game itself is a much smarter way to approach development in my opinion. 

 

I do suspect and i could be very wrong, the developers themselves are skilled much more towards developing the battles themselves than the open world.  Which is quiet understandable as everyone has their own set of unique skills and knowledge, but this is where hiring new people to help in area's that your dont have great knowledge on is the answer.  Again this is all assumptions....

[Wang]

If half of the time spend on arguing was spend on writing a well thought-through pirate suggestion/alternative, there would be a framework almost capable of 1-on-1 implementation.

Mind you, i have read most of those suggestions and they nearly all are incomplete or unviable for this game.

Same can be said for the newly switched 'testers'. Putting emphasis in it wont speed up any proces.

The issue is known, put yourselves to good use and figure out ways to make the pirate lifestyle more appealing for both parties, instead of finding new ways to insult/annoy eachother. (Its getting old frankly)

 

 

I gave a very simple and from my understanding easy to implement system earlier in this thread  (wipe the map, give the pirates a handful of ports 5-10  that cant be lost so they can craft ships still,  give them the ability to raid ports but not capture them,  give them large amounts of gold based off the port size on successful raids, and maybe even disable all national player production in said port for a week)  I think in that system it would please majority of people... 

 

Although i remember around steam release the developers had the idea of creating player made pirate havens, that national players would have to hunt down etc.  I think thats a fantastic idea as well but much harder to implement, and the system above is something that would fix the broken mechanics and keep the player base happy for a good year or so, for further pirate mechanics like pirate havens have time to be introduced.

Edited May 26, 2016 by Wang

[Wang]

Guys, the devs are working hard and their work shows a lot of quality and potential. Just be patient.

 

 

Just stating this over and over doesnt help.  We all know the devs are working on the game.... It's their baby, its their product, its their food on the table...its in their interest, of course they are working hard.

Sitting back and being patient while the game loses its player base and also not testing aka breaking the game is not helpful either.

[Fastidius]

If half of the time spend on arguing was spend on writing a well thought-through pirate suggestion/alternative, there would be a framework almost capable of 1-on-1 implementation.

Mind you, i have read most of those suggestions and they nearly all are incomplete or unviable for this game.

Same can be said for the newly switched 'testers'. Putting emphasis in it wont speed up any proces.

The issue is known, put yourselves to good use and figure out ways to make the pirate lifestyle more appealing for both parties, instead of finding new ways to insult/annoy eachother. (Its getting old frankly)

then make them a nation and not a click friendly to join.......JUST MAKE THEM A NATION for the 9millionth time....remove the broken mechanic

[Captain Underpants]

Just stating this over and over doesnt help. We all know the devs are working on the game.... It's their baby, its their product, its their food on the table...its in their interest, of course they are working hard.

Sitting back and being patient while the game loses its player base and also not testing aka breaking the game is not helpful either.

But if you have recognised that the Devs are working hard on the pirate mechanics. If the Devs themselves have stated that they are working on it as a priority. If the Devs and almost everybody recognise that pirates need changing as soon as possible...

Then why are you trying to break the game to demonstrate something to the Devs which they already know and are working on as quickly as they can?

[SteelSandwich]

Dear Moderator,

I think what would be nice is if we got some dev team/mod team feedback on the viability of our suggestions so we may know if we re even on the right train of thought. This way when we post ideas and its a bad one or not viable we wont waste time discussing them in depth but more time thinking of new ones. I personally really love this game and want to help but first thread i posted got locked immediately, then i reposted in the appropriate thread but nothing heard.

 

I will reply to Wang's suggestion in the manner i try to write frameworks. Formulate your intent/vision/goals and work towards it

 

I gave a very simple and from my understanding easy to implement system earlier in this thread  (wipe the map, give the pirates a handful of ports 5-10  that cant be lost so they can craft ships still,  give them the ability to raid ports but not capture them,  give them large amounts of gold based off the port size on successful raids, and maybe even disable all national player production in said port for a week)  I think in that system it would please majority of people... 

 

Although i remember around steam release the developers had the idea of creating player made pirate havens, that national players would have to hunt down etc.  I think thats a fantastic idea as well but much harder to implement, and the system above is something that would fix the broken mechanics and keep the player base happy for a good year or so, for further pirate mechanics like pirate havens have time to be introduced.

 

You have some valid suggestions, yet unfortunately it's incomplete. That alone wont change the pirate behavior, it just effects their RvR ability.

 

A suggestion is always made with a certain goal in mind. There are 2 ways for operating in that respect: Mechanic wise, vision wise.

Either you see the stones to build with and build a house, or you envision the house and see what stones are needed.

 

Let's start with the vision:

- Harder lifestyle than other nations, aimed at raiding, pvp, and general disruption. A threat to a player, an annoyance to a nation, but not a threat to a nation.

 

I think there wont be much debate about that, that's is the pirate lifestyle right there.

 

Next up, how do we remove pirates from the RvR theater:

Pirates participating on the RvR theater is laughable and something that needs changing asap. Sailing 1st-rates is something that does not suit the pirate raider vision either.

- Shipyard restriction to level 2

- No conquest Pb’s for pirates -> they can raid ports however!  (rightfully mentioned by you)

 

With no RvR, PvP raiding needs to be incentivized.

There are plenty of ways to incentivize raiding, here are some suggestions.

- Pirates can sail under a fake nation flag in OW

  Required for this is that no-one can see a clan tag until the 1 min. visual marker. (2 min. is max view range)

  Pirates can portray another nation in OW, 'masks' disappears when at 1 min. marker.

  Notorious(ingame known) pirates will be spottable via their name alone. For example, Lord vicious/Pagan Pete/Nornica sailing an US or dutch flag should make you suspicious.

 

Maybe very far-fetched (is yet to be worked out/thought through. Hard to make, but would be interesting to have.):

As in, a sort of pirate outpost which you can build x distance from any port, and it will create a village/hide-out.

Example:

 

This would make them flexible, allow only your friends to know the location, and have fun with it until a nation finds it and decides to contest/destroy it.

One could even go as far and establish themselves somewhere with the permission of a nation, for example near Canalete and operate as dutch-friendly/brit-hostile pirates.

 

 

Aimed at the crew hire:

- When pirates raid a port, they can raid crew stack as well (press ganged)

 

Pirate characteristics:

These are traits that would make pirates more immersive.

- Pirates get a bonus to morale and boarding, combined with a penalty to gunnery (reload + acc)

- 15% over-crewing is allowed for pirates.

 

 

this atleast is a start to ensure that the pirate lifestyle is more appealing for both parties. This is far from complete, yet its a start to get there.

[GrapeShot]

Add to that, instead of mines and lumber yards, cash generating pirate buildings should be bars, whore houses and gambling dens.

And instead of shipyards they should have ship refitting facilities where they can boost duras on capped ships, add guns and berths and so forth.

Piracy is an occupation, not a polity, and should be invisioned accordingly.

[Bach]

Marry Steelsandwich and grape shots suggestions together with making the only way to become a pirate is attacking your own nation and that is really all you would need to do to fix pirates. In addition to the level 2 shipyard restriction you would need to cap the number of crew a pirate can command at about 300 men. This would curb going pirate with a half dozen 1st rates or simple getting them from Alts in other nations. It will hold them down to the raider level. From there on out you just play test and tweak them along with everyone else. It's not rocket science.

So what do you do with the current pirate players? Simple step process. Step one erase the current pirates. Turn all their ports to neutrals and make all their possessions redeemable. Let them pick what nation they want to play for. If they want the new pirate life they just need to attack their own nation. Otherwise the game goes on.

Edited May 26, 2016 by Bach

[Scout]

How i see this problem has much more to do with the behavior of players then any thing else there need to be so destructive that the game it self starts to brake down and losing it player base.

 

If it was my game i wold for starters remove pirates as a nation give them the option as playing pvp from free towns and let them have the same option to dock as a smugler has and one port where the can build small pirate ships up to max 5th´s

Next thing on my list wold be total port and assets reset when the new 3 step patch is ready.

 

Have the option in when you first log in after the reset you get a one time only to pick your faction after that there is no turning back.

 

The option to delete your account and hold your rank is in my mind silly and to destructive on the global scale and will be miss used better wold be to be fair to the game and the players that play there to remove this option or limit it in some way for example lose 50% of your exp or some thing on those lines.

[Babble]

Correct me if I'm wrong Steel but i believe the part of your suggestion about the "masks" was one of mine suggested in the roadmap  in section 7 here

>http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/12696-the-road-map-table-of-contents/?hl=roadmap

 

I also suggested to completely eliminate the pirate faction here

>http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/14245-pirate-mechanics-suggestions-collection-thread/

 

and instead make them a profession.  As it were often a pirate was only considered a pirate by the nation to whom it was committing acts of piracy.

 

I believe both of the ideas could be easily combine.   In this fashion you cannot select pirate as a starting faction and are not a faction at all.  Simply a handful of bonuses  that reflect and assist a persons chosen play-style.  Because of this there is no need for Pirate ports.  They simply can operate out of whatever ports are owned by nations that dont consider them a pirate. 

 

Both systems could most certainly be fleshed out more and i would be happy to do so if it is something that would at least even be reviewed by the dev teams.  I have spent hours compiling lists of well thought out suggestions down to the required mats for crafting items and have received very little if any response for the effort so i have deemed it not worth my time.

 

 

If a fully fleshed out solution for the pirate problem is sought I will happily comply, given I am told that it will at least be read by yourself.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

That said and despite how serious the pirate problem is i have always been a fan of building from the foundation up.

 

I think first and for most the map port and resource distribution needs to be reworked like this> Map download linked here.  https://drive.google...Z1B1Q1dVUWlSZEE

 

And these changes need to happen shortly there after > http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/13796-resource-distribution-the-economy-and-giving-players-a-reason-to-sail/

 

Particularly the economy, banking, and sailing speed changes.

Edited May 26, 2016 by Babble

[Red Jack Walker]

Add to that, instead of mines and lumber yards, cash generating pirate buildings should be bars, whore houses and gambling dens.

And instead of shipyards they should have ship refitting facilities where they can boost duras on capped ships, add guns and berths and so forth.

Piracy is an occupation, not a polity, and should be invisioned accordingly.

 

lol

Edited May 26, 2016 by Red Jack Walker

[Captain Underpants]

I will reply to Wang's suggestion in the manner i try to write frameworks. Formulate your intent/vision/goals and work towards it

You have some valid suggestions, yet unfortunately it's incomplete. That alone wont change the pirate behavior, it just effects their RvR ability.

A suggestion is always made with a certain goal in mind. There are 2 ways for operating in that respect: Mechanic wise, vision wise.

Either you see the stones to build with and build a house, or you envision the house and see what stones are needed.

Let's start with the vision:

- Harder lifestyle than other nations, aimed at raiding, pvp, and general disruption. A threat to a player, an annoyance to a nation, but not a threat to a nation.

I think there wont be much debate about that, that's is the pirate lifestyle right there.

Next up, how do we remove pirates from the RvR theater:

Pirates participating on the RvR theater is laughable and something that needs changing asap. Sailing 1st-rates is something that does not suit the pirate raider vision either.

- Shipyard restriction to level 2

- No conquest Pb’s for pirates -> they can raid ports however! (rightfully mentioned by you)

With no RvR, PvP raiding needs to be incentivized.

There are plenty of ways to incentivize raiding, here are some suggestions.

- Pirates can sail under a fake nation flag in OW

Required for this is that no-one can see a clan tag until the 1 min. visual marker. (2 min. is max view range)

Pirates can portray another nation in OW, 'masks' disappears when at 1 min. marker.

Notorious(ingame known) pirates will be spottable via their name alone. For example, Lord vicious/Pagan Pete/Nornica sailing an US or dutch flag should make you suspicious.

Maybe very far-fetched (is yet to be worked out/thought through. Hard to make, but would be interesting to have.):

As in, a sort of pirate outpost which you can build x distance from any port, and it will create a village/hide-out.

Example:

This would make them flexible, allow only your friends to know the location, and have fun with it until a nation finds it and decides to contest/destroy it.

One could even go as far and establish themselves somewhere with the permission of a nation, for example near Canalete and operate as dutch-friendly/brit-hostile pirates.

Aimed at the crew hire:

- When pirates raid a port, they can raid crew stack as well (press ganged)

Pirate characteristics:

These are traits that would make pirates more immersive.

- Pirates get a bonus to morale and boarding, combined with a penalty to gunnery (reload + acc)

- 15% over-crewing is allowed for pirates.

this atleast is a start to ensure that the pirate lifestyle is more appealing for both parties. This is far from complete, yet its a start to get there.

All good stuff: can you repost it here please where we are collecting all these ideas for the Devs.

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/14245-pirate-mechanics-suggestions-collection-thread/page-2#entry263591

[Quineloe]

Until pirate mechanics are reworked, I'd be happy if you couldn't just switch to pirates by attacking your own nation to reign in the ever growing zerg.

[Long Beard]

So the problem is that when a nation gets backed into a corner, there is a temptation for some to switch to Pirate and since it's a one way street, it's harder to switch back when nation is back on its feet causing the pirate nation to slowly grow whilst others shrink.  Can't argue with this theory. It's a shame players look to abandon their nation when it's not going so well, but hey we're all gamers, not seamen so again it's understandable why some do.

A change to this mechanic would see an end to the ability to attack another countryman. That would indeed be a shame. Perhaps the penalty for attacking another countryman shouldn't be an instant perma switch to pirate faction, but a temporary one.  No access to ANY port until sunk or a timer expires. Timer could be 6 hours before penalty expires and player is back with his nation flag. Life resumes as normal but his reputation takes a beating.


 

[Bach]

So the problem is that when a nation gets backed into a corner, there is a temptation for some to switch to Pirate and since it's a one way street, it's harder to switch back when nation is back on its feet causing the pirate nation to slowly grow whilst others shrink. Can't argue with this theory. It's a shame players look to abandon their nation when it's not going so well, but hey we're all gamers, not seamen so again it's understandable why some do.

A change to this mechanic would see an end to the ability to attack another countryman. That would indeed be a shame. Perhaps the penalty for attacking another countryman shouldn't be an instant perma switch to pirate faction, but a temporary one. No access to ANY port until sunk or a timer expires. Timer could be 6 hours before penalty expires and player is back with his nation flag. Life resumes as normal but his reputation takes a beating.

I see where you are going with this. I think the attraction is simply the desire to maintain blue prints that causes the shift to pirates vs. say France or some other nation. A simpler solution would be to have the shift to pirate result in the same losses switching nations does. So if on attacking that friendly player all outposts, gold, building and blue prints were erased I think we would see player choose nation switches more evenly. In the end only players that truly wanted to be pirates would go while others may instead choose to start filling up some of the other less played nations. It's not that they want to all be pirates. Most just want to keep their stuff. The stuff is the motivator. Edited May 27, 2016 by Bach

[Glazo]

Guys, the devs are working hard and their work shows a lot of quality and potential. Just be patient.

 ok, but how long? Years?

[HarryButpain]

@sandwich, can pirates cap lvl 3 shipyard ships (no npcs)? IF the brits all form up in front of PR because of a pirate ganking party, will the rats have to run away? I'm thinking about a scenario where nation players all mob up as soon as the first rat shows up like "Come on rat, what u gonna do in your little boats?". Im not saying it's wrong I just wonder if that is what you've envisioned..

 

I mean, sure, that would be realistic. Rat players would want to raid unprotected ports but since almost all nats prefer SOLs I wonder if rats would see much pvp? That would be a downside of being a rat I guess.

Edited May 27, 2016 by BACk ALLEY ShENANiGANS

[SteelSandwich]

I dont have initial objection against pirates sailing 1st-rates. I do, however, have a problem with nearly all pirates sailing in 1's.

So via crafting limits and lower crew for highest rank, this can be enforced.

They will be able to buy them from others or cap them. And they will, all be it limited via the crew, still be able to use them in rare cases.