Jump to content
Game-Labs Forum
admin

ships of the line armor

Recommended Posts

here is my opinion on the santi vs victory.

 

one quick question,

 

which one is on the bottom of the ocean?

 

which one is still on the top of the ocean?

 

think its clear which ship should be better.

 

 

Edit:  didn't those two ships fight each other?  which one won?

just realized that's more then one question.  I r math challenged

They didnt fight 1v1, it was a fleet battle. At the end of Battle, which ships survived? well neither sank... you also have cases where inferiour ships captured superior ships due to chance or skill or some other factor. Judging a ships quality based on who won is no way to do it.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fun game > perfectly realistic

If certain ships are only useful for parading in front of Kingston there would be no need to put the effort into implementing as many as possible. I am all for balancing them out even if it isn't perfectly realistic

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Something is wrong with the new system. In order to have fun, you need to make a damage system based on skills. Not on how many leaks a broadside can do close on. Yesterday I saw a Pavel go down after 2 min of battle. I also almost lost my 3rd rate to an AI-bot that rammed me right away after 30 seconds of gameplay. I dont know why I didnt sink - I needed 800 crew for repairs and my ship was about 90% filled with water. But I mean - where is the tactical play? Where is the option to to make formations - lines - maneuvres etc. in such an environment? Id say the old system - with all its flaws - was the better chioce. 

 

Its simply too risky to sail out now as battles are completely randomized. 

 

Also I was in a group of 11 players. We got tagged by single players and where split up in 2-3 groups with a lot of "battle circle" to choose from. When you group up, you very much like to play and fight as a group. There must be better ways to make the tagging mechanisms. 

 

I know you are facing a challenge making this game right. I also know that you like the realism aspect. But in a game - gameplay always comes first. THEN you can make things lookin good and nice etc. I got the feeling that you are doing things the other way around here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

no, with the current systems all battles are done within a range of 250 because of the penetration model. I dont care about lock/unlock focus or what ever. The range where the dev want us to fight is what I mean

No. Locked or unlocked Auto focus are quite important. If you use locked, the direction of your cannons while always be 90 ° to the Ships Length. If you use unlocked your cannons will focus on one point so the outer cannons move their aim inwards to hit near the aiming point. This causes the shots to Angle to some extend, and that increases the chance of bouncing.

Edited by Paint

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Something is wrong with the new system. In order to have fun, you need to make a damage system based on skills. Not on how many leaks a broadside can do close on. Yesterday I saw a Pavel go down after 2 min of battle. I also almost lost my 3rd rate to an AI-bot that rammed me right away after 30 seconds of gameplay. I dont know why I didnt sink - I needed 800 crew for repairs and my ship was about 90% filled with water. But I mean - where is the tactical play? Where is the option to to make formations - lines - maneuvres etc. in such an environment? Id say the old system - with all its flaws - was the better chioce. 

 

Its simply too risky to sail out now as battles are completely randomized. 

 

Also I was in a group of 11 players. We got tagged by single players and where split up in 2-3 groups with a lot of "battle circle" to choose from. When you group up, you very much like to play and fight as a group. There must be better ways to make the tagging mechanisms. 

 

I know you are facing a challenge making this game right. I also know that you like the realism aspect. But in a game - gameplay always comes first. THEN you can make things lookin good and nice etc. I got the feeling that you are doing things the other way around here.

That is probably the cause of the BR System, since you reached the maximum BR that can join against that single enemy, the others ones are left out since there is no place for em, But you cant blame the game for not knowing how battle circles and stuff works.

Edited by Paint

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No. Locked or unlocked Auto focus are quite important. If you use locked, the direction of your cannons while always be 90 ° to the Ships Length. If you use unlocked your cannons will focus on one point so the outer cannons move their aim inwards to hit near the aiming point. This causes the shots to Angle to some extend, and that increases the chance of bouncing.

Yeah, but that isn't the topic what I'm talking about. I talk about the nerf of the effective battle range

 

That is probably the cause of the BR System, since you reached the maximum BR that can join against that single enemy, the others ones are left out since there is no place for em, But you cant blame the game for not knowing how battle circles and stuff works.

BR Limit was removed after some days during a "hot fix" as far as I know. So there isn't a maximum BR

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That is probably the cause of the BR System, since you reached the maximum BR that can join against that single enemy, the others ones are left out since there is no place for em, But you cant blame the game for not knowing how battle circles and stuff works.

 

I do blame the game for not making mechanisms that enhance a good combat experience. Good games has to be easy to learn and hard to master. Here the development seems to follow a strange pattern away from logic. What Ive experienced is the following:

 

1) you group up

2) you go looking for a fight (A battle)

3) 15-30 min of sailing

4) finally you reach a fight but the battle is closed

4) you sail on to another closed fight and another one... no result

5) the group gets tagged by players that wants to split it up - players that knows the loopholes in the game

6) the splitted group got involved in 3 different battles at the same time against one or two ships that rams and kill a Pavel  - no battle - no fight - just gamey stuff. 

7) after one hour or so of chasing we caught the tagger and killed him

8) the 1/3 of the group sails home

9) exit Naval Action after another frustrating experience 

10) read on forums that Its my own fault not having fun?

Edited by fox2run
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the system at present is great except that ships sink far to easily. The changes mentioned smack more of game balancing.

than any desire to make the ships perform historically.

 

So frigates cant sink ships of the line, good!! They shouldn't be able too. Hopefully the developers will try to make the game more realistic than arcadish as some people seem to want to push. There are alternatives for those who want arcade action.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On the realism aspect, found an example of a light frigate fighting a 3rd rate on the open sea, with smaller ships in support. Reposting from similar thread. Quotes from Wikipedia

 

Id like to share a relevant real world engagement between a light American frigate and a 64 gun British 3rd Rate
USS Randoph, 26x12 pdr, 10x6pdr
HMS Yarmouth 26×32 pdr, 26x18 pdr, 10x9pdr(quarterdeck) 2x9 pdr (forecastle) 

https://en.m.wikiped...Yarmouth_(1745)


https://en.m.wikiped...Randolph_(1776)
"On the afternoon of 7 March, Randolph's lookouts spotted sail on the horizon. At 21:00 that evening, that ship, now flying British colors, came up on the Randolph as the largest ship in the convoy, and demanded they hoist their colors. The Randolph then hoisted American colors and fired a broadside into the British ship, mistakenly believing the ship to be a large sloop.[1] The stranger turned out to be the British 64-gun ship of the line, HMS Yarmouth.

As a 64-gun, two-deck line-of-battle ship, Yarmouth had double the number of guns as Randolph. Yarmouth's guns were also significantly heavier, mounting 32 pound cannons on her main deck, 18 pounder guns on her upper deck and 9 pounder guns on her quarterdeck and forecastle, giving her almost five times the weight of shot that Randolph could fire. The Randolph and General Moultrie engaged Yarmouth until the Randolph's magazine exploded with a blinding flash. The Yarmouth was struck with burning debris up to six feet long, which significantly damaged her sails and rigging as well as killing five, and wounding twelve.[1][2]

The damage caused to Yarmouth's sails and rigging prevented her from pursuing the remaining South Carolina ships which slipped away in the darkness.[2]

The loss of the Randolph resulted in the deaths of 311 of her crew, with 4 survivors.[3][4]"

The Randolph could fire its broadside 3 times to the Yarmouths 1

"The frigate managed to cause some minor damage to two of Yarmouth's topmasts and a portion of her bowsprit, then attempted to rake (fire through the length of) the ship; Randolph was firing 3 broadsides to Yarmouth's one, however the 12 lb shot would have struggled to penetrate Yarmouth's scantlings (armor), while Yarmouth's likely armaments of 12 lb 24 lb and 32 lb guns would have been able to penetrate any part of her comparatively lightly armored opponent. Randolph exploded during the engagement, likely due to a shot penetrating her magazine, killing all but four of her crew. Part of her wreckage landed on Yarmouth's decks, including Randolph's ensign. Yarmouth had to repair two damaged topmasts but suffered no significant damage and no fatalities or serious injuries." 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The battle of the nile describes adequately what should happen to a frigate vs a ship of the line; please if possible do not make this game a game of balance where everything can kill everything. Some units should need to act differently in some battles and should have different roles. I know a lot of people think that "bang bang" os the only combat role and have a NEED to do damage and be the hero. But balance is for boring games where nobody is afraid of anything or has a reaction to anything other than "charge". These games are just repetitive for me now with very little strategy other than the direction of bullets and shells onto the target. I personally am enjoying getting used to getting caught with my pants down in situations I have no control over and no way out. It is a little chance and a lot of strategy.

 

"The third British ship into action was HMS Orion under Captain Sir James Saumarez, which rounded the engagement at the head of the battle line and passed between the French main line and the frigates that lay closer inshore.[87] As he did so, the frigate Sérieuse opened fire on Orion, wounding two men. The convention in naval warfare of the time was that ships of the line did not attack frigates when there were ships of equal size to engage, but in firing first French Captain Claude-Jean Martin had negated the rule. Saumarez waited until the frigate was at close range before replying.[88] Orion needed just one broadside to reduce the frigate to a wreck, and Martin's disabled ship drifted away over the shoal.[72] During the delay this detour caused, two other British ships joined the battle: Theseus, which had been disguised as a first-rate ship,[89] followed Foley's track across Guerrier's bow. Miller steered his ship through the middle of the melee between the anchored British and French ships until he encountered the third French ship, Spartiate. Anchoring to port, Miller's ship opened fire at close range. HMS Audacious under Captain Davidge Gould crossed the French line between Guerrier and Conquérant, anchoring between the ships and raking them both.[86][Note B] Orion then rejoined the action further south than intended, firing on the fifth French ship, Peuple Souverain, and Admiral Blanquet's flagship, Franklin.[72]"

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Nile

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just a quick reminder when it comes to the realism versus game balance to keep in mind: In real life every captain did not have as easy access to SoL's as we have in game. He couldn't just buy one from the shop or craft one with materials he bought. For the people who are pushing realism above all else then you need to keep this in mind.....you can't have it both ways. If 3rds and above are going to have such an absolute advantage over everything else then they damn sure as hell need to be harder to get and maintain. They shouldn't be the money making gold grinders that they are now but just the opposite. People have been using "realism" selectively when if comes to various aspects of NA for years now when it suits them and disregarding it when it doesn't.....Like the devs have said, things should be biased toward historical realism when possible but not so much that it takes away from "fun factor".

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

guys. face it.

santis wider frame spacing makes her more vulnearably than victory.

stop beeing ignorant towards facts.

 

and gameplay wise she should not be plain superior in everything but sailing.

thats bad gamedesign

Actually the Santi was not that bettet than other 1st rates. If I am right she had only 3 decks when she was build. They just closed the gap on the weather deck to have an extra 4th but the armor or fire power was not bigger because of the small guns. But she had big disadvantages in sailing that's why a 2nd rate could almost take her out on her own. I think it was the Neptune which fired a broadside into her stern and demasted her.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...