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Penetration and armor thickness feedback - moderated

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Some very good points, Puchu. The proposed tweaks to longs and slowing reload a bit are spot on.

Edited by Stilgar

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It's been a while since I've done it 1 on 1 vs. player, but I used to be able to keep a carro ship's sails down, whittle him down to a comfortable HP level and then either sink him from outside carro range or go in for a short brawl.

It's a lot messier with group fighting, tho.

This used to be my (rather dull) way of teaching carro guys how vulnerable that setup was if longs players won't fight on carro terms.

Has that changed?

 

The carronade teams have won all the 3v3 tournament matches, right? With a battle ring.

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(Annotation for the tournament: For the tournament and why only carronades have won, there are many reasons. Main reason for that is the limited space and the very limited time which makes any strategy but going full in with carronades obsolete. Things would be different if the timer was 1,5h. And also you need to take player skill into consideration. When brawling with carronades you dont have to be as good as when brawling with longs. )

 

 

Now back to the values. Ok, you got me, im going into more detail I will use the Trinc as example here, you can use any ship you want though.

 

A teak trinc has a thickness (T) of 60

A trincs masts have a thickness of 105

 

Cannons vs masts:

The 9pd longs have a max pen of 95 at 25 meters, so they will NEVER penetrate a trincs masts. So for shooting masts you might aswell just F1 them, since they dont do anything at all. 0 Damage (That includes the chasers ofc)

The 18pd longs have a pen of 107 at 100m and 99 at at 200m so with half your cannons, you will do damage to the enemys masts at around 130m

The 32pd carronades have a pen of 107 at 200m and a pen of 96 at 300m. So with the carronades you will do damage to masts at around 220m.

 

Conclusion:
9pd L = 0 

18pd L = 130m

32pd C = 220m 

 

With carronades you can demast your enemy from longer distance than you can with longs. 

 

 

Cannons vs Hull:

 

Again looking at the values, a trinc has 60T. That means that at a 90° Angle shots that come in straight will need 60 pen to do damage. So we will look at the straight values first before we make it all way more complicated :)

 

9pd L have 62 Pen at 400m

18pd L have 69 pen at 600m so they will probably pen at like 700m

32pd C have 67 pen at 600m so they can pen at like 650m (Yes, i know Carronades probably wont hit anything at 650m)

 

Ok, dont stone me jet, since the numbers raw like this are decieving.

 

Now we add Angle into the consideration (Not jet heel, hull shape and flightcurve)

 

At a 45° Angle the trinc will alrdy have 84T. 

 

9pd L pen at 110m

18pd L pen at 380m

32pd C pen at 400m

 

Here you see that at a 45° angle the effective gun range of Carronades is higher than the effective gun range of longs. 

 

But again these numbers are decieving. 

 

Now it's where it becomes too complicated for me to explain, but basically you need to look at the angle at which the ball hits the side. Since carronades have a totally different flight curve than longs they will hit at a different angle than longs will. that has advantages and disadvantages in regards to hull shapes and heeling. Basically, when you want to take less damage at longer range from a carronade you need to try to heel towards the enemy, that will increase your armor because it increases the angle at which the ball hits. Same goes for longs, but they have a much straighter flight curve. 

 

That means that for all the m values, you probably have to subtract at least 100m from the pen range because of heeling and so on. (I know this last part is a very rough "calculation", but it's the best i can do right now, since there are too many factors to evaluate)

 

 

Conclusion:

 

ONLY at a range of 500m at a 90° shooting angle will one deck of longs be more efficient than carronades. Once the enemy slightly turns, you wont do any damage anymore. Then you need to get into closer range that you can pen with longs and at steeper angles carronades will just outpen you due to their higher pen. Not to say that ofc at close range you will just get out dps'd.

 

Carronades care way less about Angles than longs.

 

 

Over all Conclusion:

 

1: You cannot win a demasting war vs carronades

2: There is a very slim window at around 500m and 90° Angle where the  18pd longs will have the advantage over 32pd carronades.

3 : Once the enemy angles to 45° and more the carronades have the advantage again.

(And this is only talking pen-wise, not damage)

 

 

I've alrdy said what my suggestion would be in the posts above, but basically the values need to be adjusted, so that longs actually can be used at longer range than the carronades which are supposed to be a short range weapon. Because 0 damage from not hitting or 0 damage from not penetrating is actually the same :)

 

(To jodgi, Yes, ofc you can desail them, cripple them and then sternrake them. That's still very much possible in a 1vs1 i totally aggree with you. Considering it's not that close spawn madness that we have in the duel room. It only takes a huge amount of time and patience to kill 1 equally sized ship. Especially if he just refuses to rep sails and only reps sails once you get in close to finish him. Once you get into a group fighting position its totally different since you have to get into the fireing range of one carronade enemy to do the decrewing and boarding and during that time you will get wrecked by the carronades.)

 

Last thing: Let's not forget that reload thing! Cannons shouldnt reload faster than you can make a 180 turn with the wind. That makes turning obsolete because you can 2:1 someone by just sailing straight.

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(Annotation for the tournament: For the tournament and why only carronades have won, there are many reasons. Main reason for that is the limited space and the very limited time which makes any strategy but going full in with carronades obsolete. Things would be different if the timer was 1,5h. And also you need to take player skill into consideration. When brawling with carronades you dont have to be as good as when brawling with longs. )

 

 

Now back to the values. Ok, you got me, im going into more detail I will use the Trinc as example here, you can use any ship you want though.

 

A teak trinc has a thickness (T) of 60

A trincs masts have a thickness of 105

 

Cannons vs masts:

The 9pd longs have a max pen of 95 at 25 meters, so they will NEVER penetrate a trincs masts. So for shooting masts you might aswell just F1 them, since they dont do anything at all. 0 Damage (That includes the chasers ofc)

The 18pd longs have a pen of 107 at 100m and 99 at at 200m so with half your cannons, you will do damage to the enemys masts at around 130m

The 32pd carronades have a pen of 107 at 200m and a pen of 96 at 300m. So with the carronades you will do damage to masts at around 220m.

 

Conclusion:

9pd L = 0 

18pd L = 130m

32pd C = 220m 

 

With carronades you can demast your enemy from longer distance than you can with longs. 

 

 

Cannons vs Hull:

 

Again looking at the values, a trinc has 60T. That means that at a 90° Angle shots that come in straight will need 60 pen to do damage. So we will look at the straight values first before we make it all way more complicated :)

 

9pd L have 62 Pen at 400m

18pd L have 69 pen at 600m so they will probably pen at like 700m

32pd C have 67 pen at 600m so they can pen at like 650m (Yes, i know Carronades probably wont hit anything at 650m)

 

Ok, dont stone me jet, since the numbers raw like this are decieving.

 

Now we add Angle into the consideration (Not jet heel, hull shape and flightcurve)

 

At a 45° Angle the trinc will alrdy have 84T. 

 

9pd L pen at 110m

18pd L pen at 380m

32pd C pen at 400m

 

Here you see that at a 45° angle the effective gun range of Carronades is higher than the effective gun range of longs. 

 

But again these numbers are decieving. 

 

Now it's where it becomes too complicated for me to explain, but basically you need to look at the angle at which the ball hits the side. Since carronades have a totally different flight curve than longs they will hit at a different angle than longs will. that has advantages and disadvantages in regards to hull shapes and heeling. Basically, when you want to take less damage at longer range from a carronade you need to try to heel towards the enemy, that will increase your armor because it increases the angle at which the ball hits. Same goes for longs, but they have a much straighter flight curve. 

 

That means that for all the m values, you probably have to subtract at least 100m from the pen range because of heeling and so on. (I know this last part is a very rough "calculation", but it's the best i can do right now, since there are too many factors to evaluate)

 

 

Conclusion:

 

ONLY at a range of 500m at a 90° shooting angle will one deck of longs be more efficient than carronades. Once the enemy slightly turns, you wont do any damage anymore. Then you need to get into closer range that you can pen with longs and at steeper angles carronades will just outpen you due to their higher pen. Not to say that ofc at close range you will just get out dps'd.

 

Carronades care way less about Angles than longs.

 

 

Over all Conclusion:

 

1: You cannot win a demasting war vs carronades

2: There is a very slim window at around 500m and 90° Angle where the  18pd longs will have the advantage over 32pd carronades.

3 : Once the enemy angles to 45° and more the carronades have the advantage again.

(And this is only talking pen-wise, not damage)

 

 

I've alrdy said what my suggestion would be in the posts above, but basically the values need to be adjusted, so that longs actually can be used at longer range than the carronades which are supposed to be a short range weapon. Because 0 damage from not hitting or 0 damage from not penetrating is actually the same :)

 

(To jodgi, Yes, ofc you can desail them, cripple them and then sternrake them. That's still very much possible in a 1vs1 i totally aggree with you. Considering it's not that close spawn madness that we have in the duel room. It only takes a huge amount of time and patience to kill 1 equally sized ship. Especially if he just refuses to rep sails and only reps sails once you get in close to finish him. Once you get into a group fighting position its totally different since you have to get into the fireing range of one carronade enemy to do the decrewing and boarding and during that time you will get wrecked by the carronades.)

 

Last thing: Let's not forget that reload thing! Cannons shouldnt reload faster than you can make a 180 turn with the wind. That makes turning obsolete because you can 2:1 someone by just sailing straight.

Are you trying to even out these weapons to improve game play or historical accuracy?

Carronades are impossible to aim with unless at very close range. I'm pretty good at taking down masts in the game but I wouldn't want to even attempt doing it with carronades unless I'm aiming at a very static target and calm seas. Doing that in the heat of battle would be wasting good powder. I'd rather aim at the hull if I'm that close anyway. In any case as much as cannon sizes and shapes there is another parameter as far as taking down a mast that is missing in the game:

 

The main problem taking down a mast in NA is that the hit points are (or seem to be) all on the mast itself which is not completely accurate. Masts would be rarely taken down by only shooting at the mast itself, it's too hard and also too narrow a target it is also well secured by a lot of shrouds and stays. This kind of direct hit would happen but mostly by luck.

 

The weakest point on the ship that could be aimed at to take down a mast was the shrouds (all the taunt side by side cables holding the masts standing on each side of the boat). Even a 6 pounder at short range could snap one of these ropes or at least do significant damage to the plank holding it to render it inoperative and even though they had more shrouds than they really needed (as redundant system), as soon as enough of these ropes snapped the mast could not withstand pressure from the sails without collapsing and if enough of these snapped on one side the shrouds on the other side would pull the mast off balance.

The captain of a ship in that situation would be smart to take his flag down if he had time to do it before a full collapse. The rig could be mended as long as some of these shrouds were left and the mast was still standing. A mast collapsing would also do a lot of damage in term of lives and equipment so it would be preferable to avoid it.

 

In short hitting the upper side of the hull where the shrouds are attached all the way up the mast should be included as parts of the mechanics of the game to take down a mast.

It also happen to be a rather wider target than the mast alone difficult to miss regardless of cannon shape or size which in turn might satisfy your desire for a more even playing field.

Edited by Tonnerre de Brest

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As a mitigation the accuracy of the carronades should simply be reduced so that hits at a range of more than 100m are just luck.

 The Victory's 68 lb carronade is reported to have had a maximum range of 1,280 yards at an angle of 5 degrees with a 5 lb charge of gunpowder.

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copied from wikipedia on carronades:

There is no evidence that any battle was decided outside of carronade range, except for the case of USS Essex, equipped almost solely with carronades, which was reduced to a hulk by the longer range guns of HMS Phoebe and HMS Cherub off Valparaiso, Chile in the March 28, 1814 Battle of Valparaiso.

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Essex was defeated by two vessels firing from various ranges, but none outside of the throw range of carronades. 'Unable to bear' relates more to the positioning on the quarters of a ship partially dismasted, anchored and without springs (they were set, but repeatedly shot away, preventing her from turning on her anchor cable).

Damage to all three vessels (and to the Essex Junior, taken separately in the same engagement sequence) include shot holes from both guns and carronades of the carried calibres (18 and 32lb carronades, 6, 12 and 18lb guns).

The early fight was at normal ranges "musquet shot", with the RN ships then breaking off to repair the significant rigging damage they suffered, and to avoid the lee shore. On returning to action the RN vessels moved to stations on bow and stern quarters at around the french definition of "point en blanc", roughly the direct pointing range by line of metal of all guns and carronades at around 700-750 yds. As the fight progressed the range was again closed to musquet shot range.

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I've alrdy said what my suggestion would be in the posts above, but basically the values need to be adjusted, so that longs actually can be used at longer range than the carronades which are supposed to be a short range weapon. Because 0 damage from not hitting or 0 damage from not penetrating is actually the same :)

 

I'm a long gun user most of the time and I agree with you, I don' feel any advantage of fighting at long range.

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Maybe carronade damage vs masts should be nerfed a bit. It's a rather anachronistic use for them anyhow.

 

Bear in mind that in all way, mast damage is an issue where gameplay considerations have long left realism in the dust.

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I finaly found some info about ricochet angles of cannon ball on wood (an reference cited in http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0734743X98000311 on page 128).

 

Here the relevant page about it.

rdo85Cg.jpg
 

 

 

For me it confirms my presumption that guns with smaller ball size but high speed should start to bounce at higher angles then the slower but bigger shots from carronades .

Edited by balticsailor
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Yesterday I did a small battle with a cutter on the enemy's side. I sailed a Constitution. I was really surprised how many balls the cutter could take before it's side was down.

I know the game is far from realism for gameplay reason, but there should be some rebalancing of the hitpoints (strengh) compared to the guns.

A 42pdr ball should go straight through the whole cutter and cause a big leak, when hit by three of those, the cutter must sink latest.

On the other hand bigger ships are far too weak in their structure.

I would like to see a balance, where equal sized ship have a mechanic similar to today, maybe with a little less damage inflicted, but the guns of lower class ships shall cause much less damage to the bigger ones, while the bigger guns should do a lot more damage to lower class ships.

Edited by Sea Archer
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Let's not damage-class ships. Please. Keep structures and building plans credible with the game mechanics and let the mechanics of gunnry and material resistance work by themselves.

 

On the guns side, after running complete random combats, with carronades, mediums and longs, with ships from lynx to Belle Poule - the carronade damage falloff might be needed a review. At the very limit of the range some ~750m, ceased to see the name, the ball was hitting short of 60m. I went into the limit, to get hit and see the effect and they hit as hard as they do at the 200m - 300m interval.

 

With mediums the damage falloff at distance is way more pronounced at similar range.

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I just would like to have a much bigger difference between the different ship sizes. More in the realistic direction.

Big balls should do devastating damage to small ships. While small guns won't hurt big ships that much.

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Guns should be down to somewhere between 30% (smallest) and 50% (largest) of their initial penetration at around 750yds

Carronades start with lower maximum penetrations, but retain more of this to long ranges. (60% to 70% at around 750yds).

 

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´Did try around with the pentraion formula:

Z=2.306 x a x d x log(1+U^2/10^5)

 

Z - penetration (cm)

a - diameter of shot (cm)

d - specific gravtiy of the shot

U - shot velocity (m/s)

 

and the critical recochet angle formula cos beta= 1.15 v*/v0 and found out that the recochet angle mostly depends only on the density and the speed of a ball, so the slower the ball is the smaller the critical angle of defection become. For a iron/steel ball (around 7.4 g/cm³) the ball will ricochet for a speed below 120 m/s for a steel/lead ball (10.5 g/cm³) that speed is reduced to 100 m/s.

 

Here some plots for the pentetration over ball speed (rho 7.4 g/cm³) with the calulated critical recochet angles and the reference data form my post yesterday aswell a fit with a density of 10.5 g/cm³ (they probally used a lead core with a iron/steel hull)

FN1sQd9.jpg

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Faster and more maneuverable ship, Carronade > Long cannon.

Armor thickness, thinner the armor, Long cannon > Carronade.

Aiming, waves, wind, Carronade > Long Cannon

 

Of course the cannon/carronade penetration and dispersion values are important.

 

Issue with high dispersion, Luck > Skill

 

...

 

Fast & Maneuverable -> In the game we close distances pretty fast.  Easier to get close with Carronades.

 

Armor thickness -> If thinner armor, provides possibilities for long cannons to penetrate from longer ranges.  Carronades get weak only after 500m.  500m is pretty long distance in the game already, most fights are in this range.

 

Aiming gets more difficult from long ranges, even for long cannons.  Will soon bring you in 500m.  Ability to cause reliable damage from longer distances, is not that easy.

Waves, wind will make this even harder.

 

Dispersion is direct variable to hit change.  High dispersion has nothing to do with player skill, so it turn skill < luck.

Penetration is directly related to armor thickness, so realistic penetration figures are only the half truth, the other one is the armor thickness.

 

How important "first strike" was in naval battles?  In Naval Action, it is not very important, so you can just sail towards the enemy in your carronade ship while he is hammering you with longs.

How imporant is the "fun factor" for us?  Realistic vs Fun/Playable?

 

 

Not sure if I got them all, but there are probably multiple ways to fix this.  Not going to recommend which would be the right one.  Just saying that you may have to add couple more variables in your conversation.

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High dispersion has nothing to do with player skill, so it turn skill < luck.

Not true, or rather only true when attempting to snipe with single guns / chasers.

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Not true, or rather only true when attempting to snipe with single guns / chasers.

I would not make a line directly to mathematical statistics.

 

Think about how the game works as well, it has a big part in this.

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From feedback we see this

People like longer battles more (mistakes matter less)

 

Reality was different

Battles were longer due to the need of maneuver and long sail setting/reesetting (fastest crew took 15 mins to set up sails, normal crews set them for 30 mins)

But shooting combat was quick - 2-3 proper broadsides disabled ships completely. 

 

In one example (GB vs Spain) lineship vs lineship. Spanish ship received 2 broadsides from passing ships at at close range and only after 30 mins started to return sporadic single shot fire. Spanish crew was shocked by casualties, damage and general chaos.

 

To bring this closer to reality several things must be experimented with

1) Devastating crew damage from cannonballs (due to splinters and flying planking) but only if penetrated at proper angles with proper volume (weight that got in)

2) Stronger armor at angles (more angle influence) and thicker armor in general

3) Brace button for crew - crew lays down - cannot do anything for 1 min but does not receive losses.

4) Limited gunpowder, guns overheat, limited ammo

5) Reload Fatigue. Guns weighed a lot, no crew could reload them consistently over an hour. First reload could be achieved in 30 seconds even for a 42lb. BUT - after 10th reload that time fell off drastically.

 

In this case maneuvering into a proper position will be longer. People will not shoot - just to shoot. And will wait for the right moment. But once you got the good broadside in battle will be over for the enemy. 

 

Some of the things from above list were partially working with strong leaks 

People were saving shots eating damage waiting for the proper moment to fully disable the enemy in one PROPER broadside under waterline.

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We have ships that move faster, shoot faster, and are tougher than the real life counterparts.   If we arbitrarily nerf something because it doesn't seem right to some but was right in real life then we break the games balance. 

 

 

Reload times are close to real life - but no fatigue is taken into account.

penetration differences are taken from the real tables but adapted of course. The falloffs and differences in caliber are close to historical numbers. For example % difference in pen falloff between guns is very very close to real french penetration tests from 18th century.

 

What is different is the penetration vs thickness. Out penetrations are generally lower (with everything else fully historical)

In reality everything penetrated everything at close range. 

 

To give you an example (numbers for demonstration purposes only)

  • Historical 6lb = 78cm at 50 yards/ 7,8 cm at 1000 yards
  • Game 6lb = 58cm at 50 yards/5.8cm at 1000 yards
  • Both game and historical difference in penetration with 24lb is 50% 

So relative penetrations between calibers are historical

Fall off is historical

whats adapted is base penetration at 50 yards

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That is what I figured.  As for firing faster, we can maintain a higher rate of fire over a real ship of the time ever could.  Because of the reason you stated, fatigue. 

 

And for the comment of adding ammo loads to ships, I would LOVE that. 

 

A real British Royal Navy ship had something like 25 ball, 15 chain, 15 bar, 10 grape on hand per gun.  

 

By the way, can we get bar shot?   something that has higher penetration numbers that can take the top of a mast off, or the bow sprits.   But is also useful for anti crew shots when stern raked. 

More like 80-100 shot (including dismantling shot), and (depending on location) 7 case and 7 grape... down to no case/grape on some lower decks or a lower number such as 3 per gun/carronade. Loadings of shot on home station were lower than this foreign service allocation, but grape and case were the same in both fleet types.

The most effective grape ammunition was in the least useful place - the gundeck of large ships was unsuited to firing at close range at the bulwarks of opposing ships, and was below the sheer of the equivalent deck in raking fire - the lighter guns higher up had significantly lighter grape shot, fewer projectiles in case shot or a much lower velocity of projection (in the case of carronades).

For special vessels, or special missions the proportion of case or carcass and shell would be higher - notably on bomb vessels, where the carronades had high proportions of these rounds, with more on a tender allocated to the vessel. Included in bomb vessel armament was the option to load the mortars with a 100 1lb shot loading - for indirect suppression of fortification ramparts. Altogether 50 discharges of this nature were provided for between the two mortars (10 on board, and 40 more on the tender)

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Included in bomb vessel armament was the option to load the mortars with a 100 1lb shot loading - for indirect suppression of fortification ramparts. 

Dang, never heard of that. Could be useful in the game as well.

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The quote indicates "was at first" - which would 1) apply only to carronades (the subject of that page), and 2) only to the initial supply of weapon and ammunition from Carron to the end user... not to the bulk of weapons supplied from Admiralty stores. It also 3), does not apply to the entire period in which Carronades are in use (and I would suggest it would only apply to the original short pattern weapons, not the more prevalent longer pattern types in use at the turn of the century).

I was using numbers taken from one of the tables of lading for RN vessels - unfortunately I can't find the document the numbers were extracted from right now.


Although not RN service* the Constitution table of lading indicates 96 shot, 48 dismantling and 12 case/grape per Carronade and 90 shot, 30 dismantling and 10 case/grape per 24lb battery gun. Her 18lb was given as 150 shot only. *The USN was noted as using a lot more dismantling fire than the RN did.

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