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Minor port battle changes next patch


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His figure includes 8 Towers and all capture zones are behind the defenders starting zone! If that would be the layout no attacker would ever be able to capture a port unless the other team is brain afk.

The defenders have the towers to have an advantage so there is nothing wrong with having the cap zones at positions that doesn´t hugely favour the defenders.

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His figure includes 8 Towers and all capture zones are behind the defenders starting zone! If that would be the layout no attacker would ever be able to capture a port unless the other team is brain afk.

The defenders have the towers to have an advantage so there is nothing wrong with having the cap zones at positions that doesn´t hugely favour the defenders.

 

UNLESS the attacker is allowed to bring more ships to the party - static defense versus dynamic attack. The proposed layout would work if the attacker is allowed to bring an extra ship for each tower/fort the defending port has....

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If defenders shall have or not an advantage is a game design important choice:

 

1) if defenders will have a remarkable advantage, attacks will be planned wisely and conquest will be a slow paced and strategic thing (and each conquest will be important for the winner).

 

2) If defenders will be on par with attackers .... we will have the PB zerg that we are experimenting now in the game (5 ports taken and retaken back in 24 hours, a lot of ports taken by rogue clans, the festival of nightflips and so on).

 

I would prefer option 1).

Edited by victor
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Sure and the towers are for simple decoration?

 

Guys, you need to realize that timing is going to be crucial with this update. The clock with victory points will be ticking from the start.

Anyway the devs have stated that this is going to be very much experimental at first as they need to figure out the correct positioning/distance to create a challenged PB  but not totally unbalanced.

 

BTW: Admin, can you please tell us what ports are changing hands with this update so that we don't end up losing ships and ressources?

 

Cheers

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@la touche-Treville

 

i guess what he meant was, that after the changes you may will lose ports more easy due the fact like you wrote, it is much experimental, and not that they change the status of the ownership of the ports.

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I registered an account just so I could reply to this topic. With about 140hours in Naval Action so far Im not the most experienced player of the game. But I do have some experience with games and MMOs in general. 

 

I had to comment, I simply had to because the proposed changes are terrible. Let me explain. We already have problems with large 25 ship 1st rate fleets, this patch will not change that. In fact it might even aggravate it. With less ports to capture and defend (regional capitals) the Santisima fleets will experience much, much less attrition. 

 

Now that AI captures are impossible at least the national and clan crafters need to work day and night to supply these 1st rates. With less attrition rates, the Santissimas will become even more common and prevalent in the game and everyone will sail one, people will even bring them out to PvE (happening already). 

 

As it is now, at least 2nd and 3rd rates can fill in the missing Santissima slots, and with less organized defenders they frequently do (for example during the recent Port Morant defenses against Xhemko).

 

So every single (and future) 2nd and 3rd ship of the line will be delegated a PvE role primarily. This can not be good for a game that prides itself on its PvP. 

 

A secondary problem is that Constitutions and Ingermenlands will become the mid tier Santissimas. These ships already fill a pretty robust role, 4th and 5th rates already do great in wolf packs, gank squads, whatever you want to call them. Now they will become the big ships for 3/4 of the map, and you will have 1st, 2nd, 3rd rates screening for them. This is not only completely a-historical its also hilarious. The balance of the game will be tilted on its head.

 

Please do not impose such artificial limits. Or at least not in this way. Thank you.

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Yes,

Throw away the whole labour hour system and instead, when you finish gathering all the materials needed to build a ship and start building it. It should take you X minutes/hours/days to build it.

During that time, your Shipyard is occupied and you can't produce any other ship. Which would give every crafter a very nice reason to own multiple shipyards to build multiple ships at the same time.

Problem with this would be that if you more or less keep the current time it takes to build a ship, and allow simultaneous ports of the same player build them spitting out 8 line ships at once, would be a bit overkill.

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Take all changes not singled out on their own but entwined together.

 

Check the wind upcoming changes for example and connect it to this changes. Ships will behave different, very different, both in OW and in battle.

Also taking hammers to suppress mosquitos is probably a waste of time ( as many have learned by now ).

 

Check Lordship and necessary pvp to get anywhere near the scraps of the table. We do not know the whole scenario leading to these but I am sure it will not be a common thing. I bet it will actually shake the status quo of things.

 

Add crew mechanics to all of that because packing thousands of crewmen while caring for their pay, prize money and replacement will not be kind taking on the facts from history.

 

This little changes patch is only a preparatory stage to bring it all together. Let it flow and then, when everything is place, we judge if the pieces are well adjusted or not.

 

I would expect a more dynamic way of engaging against enemy ports, that's for sure. But given the PBs will remain without land we have to endure it.

 

Land in ports will change a lot the way we play it. If you already fought OW battles in places where there's a lot of shallows and small islands ( try fighting around Bonacca for example ) you should know exactly what will be when trying to attack a port such as Tortuga or Cartagena. Hell, I even managed to run aground during a fight. Was hell to pay to get out.

 

There will be more attrition and ports can now be swamped by more population instead of only the top 3 rates.

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Request: Please change outposts docks accordingly and start re-positioning your forces 

 

^^ ?

 

1. What does this mean ?

can i have a explanation ...

give some examples please....

 

 

2. Is this game becoming more and more arcady ??

the ow was a sandbox if you ask me

 

i just dont like arcade with RNG

Edited by Thonys
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Will our ships be safe in  free ports when the patch arrives and neutralises all the ports except the capital (is that whats happening) ?

thats exactly what i said before we just dont know what is exactly going to happen

 

we definitely need more output/input ..

we are in need of a timeline and upcoming changes

otherwise our input is pointless...

there are so many suggestions on supposed features we cant see the real story anymore

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A secondary problem is that Constitutions and Ingermenlands will become the mid tier Santissimas. These ships already fill a pretty robust role, 4th and 5th rates already do great in wolf packs, gank squads, whatever you want to call them. Now they will become the big ships for 3/4 of the map, and you will have 1st, 2nd, 3rd rates screening for them. This is not only completely a-historical its also hilarious. The balance of the game will be tilted on its head.

 

 

Yes and it is better than to only have First rates. .

Captains who deny that - do not understand that it has already happened: Deep water port battles consist of 2 ships already. Santisima Trindiad and Victory (but mostly santisima trinidad). 

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I take this to mean that around 15 this month ports will be changed so that regional capitals (and capitals) that are deep water will accept all ships into the port battles. This may not mean we cannot store ships in our outposts, may just be port battle ship types. So in effect you can only take 4th rates into deep water port battles. But could still keep a 1st rate in a deep water outpost?


 


"Port battles will split into 3 levels next patch (eta mid may)


 


Regional deep water capitals (unless its a shallow water port) - will accept all ships 


Normal deep water ports - will accept ships up to 4th rates


Shallow water - will accept ships up to brigs


 


Request: Please change outposts docks accordingly and start re-positioning your forces "


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Will our ships be safe in  free ports when the patch arrives and neutralises all the ports except the capital (is that whats happening) ?

please read the notes carefully

  • We said captains should reposition their ships because lineships will only be accepted in port battles for regional capitals. There is no reason to hold your lineship fleet in cities that have no RC around them. Thats just a friendly warning to make your life easier.
  • We also said that nations will lose ports because mechanics are new. Not because ports change or something.
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Yes and it is better than to only have First rates. .

Captains who deny that - do not understand that it has already happened: Deep water port battles consist of 2 ships already. Santisima Trindiad and Victory (but mostly santisima trinidad). 

Admin absolutely as I see it as well. I suggested giving huge rewards to people for taking ships that are rarely used at that time on that server dynamically and vica versa for popular ships (per faction by ratio). Getting less reward as they become more popular. That's the only way I see people taking all the ships in the game in more or less equal ratios without resorting to individual ship balance silliness and also without artificially stopping people from taking the ships they want.

 

please read the notes carefully

  • We said captains should reposition their ships because lineships will only be accepted in port battles for regional capitals. There is no reason to hold your lineship fleet in cities that have no RC around them. Thats just a friendly warning to make your life easier.
  • We also said that nations will lose ports because mechanics are new. Not because ports change or something.

 

Thanks admin for the clarification. The rumours are rampant in the in game chat :)

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Yup,

A BR limit is the easiest way to start seeing more diversity of ships in a port battle while putting the strategic aspect of a fleet composition into the hands of the players.

The main point of bringing less powerful/smaller ships is to fight quality with number, sadly this strategy is null and void with the current game mechanics.

 

 

It will not work because battles are not DOTA matches and are not pre arranged.

Letting the fleet composition into the hands of players for an important battle is a recipe for disaster - ask any clan

If you don't control entry into PB your composition will be screwed up by a couple of random joiners. Its already happening but it will become worse if there are limits

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Another possiblity is to have each port allow a particular ratio of ship classes that also has a BR rating that does not allow the top ships in each rate to be taken in all slots.

Rather like this tailored for each port

 

See how RO2 limits particular class types while being realistic in loadout and number of class: This means the machine gunner does not have to be nerfed. He is an integral part of the squad... in naval actions case the squadron. Notice how the second squad does not even allow a machine gunner! As players join the server they fill the open slots. Then the port battle can start. 

 

2011-10-13_00003.jpg

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Although an attempt of getting a bigger diversity of ships into the actual meta is commendable, do you actually believe that limitation like that will change much ? It will just go from a power creep of Santisimas to a power creep of Ingermanlands. I really hope you guys come up with a crafting system that would make higher tier ships rarer to acquire and thus making all of them an asset to your nation instead of implementing 100 new ships whilst only 3-4 of those are used. 

 

 

 

But it is still better than only 140+ gun creep like right now

 

Guys - get reasonable and think things through. 

  • Current system only 1st rates are valid (only 2 choices in any port battle)
  • New system - at least some frigates and 4th rates will be useful (2x better than old one). And it gives choice to those who hate ships of the line. And dont like sailing them.

Comments that there are only going to be constitutions and ingers in some of the battles; Yes it might happen but it is a better situation compared to today. It is making consitutions and ingers and other heavy frigates finally viable in port battles which are not fit for ships of the line because of depth. 

 

Regarding ship differences

The only way to make all 135 best angle frigates viable is to make them all 12 knots and 5000 hp

If we go for at least some historical performance people will choose the ship with most guns and speed for OW and most guns and planking for PB.

Taking WW2 analogy - what is the point to drive Pz -2 with machine gun if everyone else drives a Panther

 

The main difference in ship performance was crew and motivation related. (it is hard to manage 300+ men) and better leaders fought better even when their ship was worse. It is impossible to replicate crew management psychology and motivation without adding a football manager game and a lot of RNG removing skill (gunner fell on the blood during battle broke leg and started asking to send him back to his wife on land). 

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See how RO2 limits particular class types while being realistic in loadout and number of class: This means the machine gunner does not have to be nerfed. He is an integral part of the squad... in naval actions case the squadron. Notice how the second squad does not even allow a machine gunner! As players join the server they fill the open slots. Then the port battle can start. 

 

 

 

RO is not an open world game. it will not work here

You sailed your 2nd rate to a port through enemy thorns. Then you enter the battle room and given a cutter?

 

Whats the point of the OW then. RO is a lobby based shooter. You cant even choose a class if your favorite class was taken and have to run with the Kar or Mosin

 

BR limiter etc. will work in tournaments and events. But not in OW port battles where the goal of your group or nation is to destroy enemy by bringing a superior force (in skill or in guns or in both).

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RO is not an open world game. it will not work here

You sailed your 2nd rate to a port through enemy thorns. Then you enter the battle room and given a cutter?

 

Whats the point of the OW then. RO is a lobby based shooter. You cant even choose a class if your favorite class was taken and have to run with the Kar or Mosin

 

BR limiter etc. will work in tournaments and events. But not in OW port battles where the goal of your group or nation is to destroy enemy by bringing a superior force (in skill or in guns or in both).

True. The point of the open world is to be creative and take whatever ships you want... but port battles are more set piece. Perhaps if the open world indicated who was on the way and what slot was reserved for them ahead of time (if they can get within a particular radius to reserve the slot)? So you could see the slots filling up and who was bringing a frigate (clans will have this covered in detail pre-battle anyways) if you hovered over the port info on the map. Combine that with my earlier suggestion for SOL, frigate and small ship objectives and roles... maybe even have a few blockade runner battles around the port battle for those that miss out... while the next battle is filling for the ports over the 24hr port battle window.

 

a) For each battle making a minimum ratio of ship types that was a little dynamic and having objectives for them directly related to capturing a port. 

 

 

Maximum of 4 (3rd rate and above)

Attacker: SOL objective - Smash all defences - general engagement including destroying non-combatant ships in harbour.

Defender: Sink all attackers. Sail out to destroy attackers supply ships so that the blockade can be broken. If supply ships are destroyed because they are left unguarded the attackers auto lose because their moral is considered broken and the invasion force cannot be sustained by sea.

 

Minimum of 4 (frigates) - 2 frigates must be chosen to specifically ferry marines and 2 to fight.

Attacker: Frigate objective - Land main troop invasion compliment & engage the enemy. 50% of frigates must land troops before they are destroyed.

Defender: Sink all attackers. Sail out to destroy attackers supply ships so that the blockade can be broken. If supply ships are destroyed because they are left unguarded the attackers auto lose because their moral is considered broken and the invasion force cannot be sustained by sea.

 

Minimum of 4 (below mercury) - 2 small ships must be chosen to specifically carry the landing party and 2 to fight.

Attacker: Small Ship Objective - traverse shallow water to clear obstacles and determine intelligence. Such as how many ships and troops are docked and what the defences are further inland. Land special raiding parties onto shallow water defences to neutralise a FORT. Signal the fleet and all ships to proceed. Pickup survivors and prisoners. Transfer admirals flag if flagship sunk.

Defender: Sink all attackers. Sail out to destroy attackers supply ships so that the blockade can be broken. If supply ships are destroyed because they are left unguarded the attackers auto lose because their moral is considered broken and the invasion force cannot be sustained by sea.

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His figure includes 8 Towers and all capture zones are behind the defenders starting zone! If that would be the layout no attacker would ever be able to capture a port unless the other team is brain afk.

The defenders have the towers to have an advantage so there is nothing wrong with having the cap zones at positions that doesn´t hugely favour the defenders.

8 towers might be 2 too many, however my image certainly was not to scale. I believe cap circle should be large enough that a SOL cannot fire from one side to the other accurately. Include that one or more of the zones is shallow, which would prevent bigger ships to enter. So by scale the cap zones would be a pretty good distance apart. These attribute would allow your main fleet to head toward the defenders while trying to set up a blocked for the shallow, faster ships to flank onto the cap, even while allowing for another flanking group to perhaps sneak in through the far side.

I believe ports should be own by the defended, who should have the advantage, much like Assault battle mode in WoT.

But anyway, this was just my idead.

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