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"Such is a lord" - Simple politics and alliances part 1 - HEAVILY MODERATED

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Simple rules.

  • Ask a question if you need a clarification – if you have questions in your post – just leave questions and post comments in other post. Dont mix questions with comments
  • If you don’t like something – propose alternative explaining how yours will work better
  • If you don’t like something but have nothing to say – stay silent.
  • Always quote the point you are referring to
  • Off topic/Ranting = friendly silence will be applied for a week.

Topic describes who can vote and how in determining national policies and nothing else. 

 

Alliances

All nations are at war with each other/ Unless you have signed an alliance

Alliance gives the following options

  • You can support each other in port battles
  • You can enter each other battles
  • You can enter each other ports
  • You can build in each other ports

Any nation can have 2 alliances (maybe three) to eventually force all nations into 3 blocks.

 

Potential other states of national relationship

  • Neutrality/Peace agreement
  • Trade war
  • War 

The rulers/parliament initiate the proposal.

The proposal is voted by lords.

If both nations have proposed and voted the peaceful change in the national relationship it is formally signed for 30 days (or longer?) and must be mutual

War can be shorter (until war points level reached declaring a winner) and does not have to be mutual

 

Who can vote:

  • Voting system is based on the simplest and oldest mechanic of all. Owning land.
  • If you own land you can vote – you are the landlord – or simply lord
  • If you don’t own land you can exhibit heroic feats – then you can become a lord and get land by lets say winning a lot in PVP
  • If you don’t have heroic feats you can marry into the Lordship by buying a special item
  • To get land you have to capture a port. Thats why all ports start neutral (except for capitals)
  • Every port grants from 25 to X estates depending on port size
  • After you won the port battle you are allocated estates based on your rank
  • If there are less winners than 25 lord protector gets the difference
  • Lord protector is a person who earned most victory points in the port battle (port assault flag will be abandoned)

Number of estates owned determines your court rank. Your court rank might give you additional points.

  • Person with most estates will become a ruler
  • Top 50 (or maybe more) estate owners become parliament
  • They get a separate parliament chat for private political discussions

Ports are controlled by lords. Lord protector can determine entry rights

 

National decisions are enforced by design.

If captains don't like national policies - capture more ports and change the decision. Maybe a large guild in opposition to a government should get an option to become a rebel, starting a civil war allowing them to capture ports from existing owners getting votes to change national decision deposing a current ruler. Foreign nations can incite civil wars and pay rebels to weaken enemy nations

 

Making ports valuable.

Owning ports = owning land

If you own land you have more people

 

More people means 2 things:

  • Increase labor hours generation for estate owner which could spill to the nation as well
  • Increase crew regeneration – because crew has to be hired and fed and rehired in case of full loss of the ship

 

Short inspirational guide on the differences between lords

The baron wears a cap with 6 pearls. The Viscount wears a coronet of which the pearls are without number. The Earl the coronet with the pears upon points mingled with strawberry leaves. The Marquis one with pearls and leaves. The Duke, one with strawberry leaves – no pearls. The Royal Duke, a circlet of crosses and fleurs de lys. The Prince, crown like that of the King but unclosed.

 

The Duke is his Grace; the other Peers their Lordshps. Most honorable is higher than right honorable. Lords who are peers are lords in their own right. Lords who are not peers are lords by courtesy. There are no real lords excepting such as are peers.

 

 

This document does not discuss piracy vs privateering: this will be discussed in a separate topic. Do not bring pirate discussions into this!

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Number of estates owned determines your court rank. Your court rank might give you additional points.

  • Person with most estates will become a ruler
  • Top 50 (or maybe more) estate owners become parliament
  • They get a separate parliament chat for private political discussions

 

I dont really like this system as it places way too much power AND responsibility in the hand of an individual.  Those people not only have to manage port timers but now a whole bunch of other stuff.  i would much rather a guilds that own ports have a % vote of parliament so their votes in parliament reflect their influence over the world.  Perhaps guilds could combine together in a way to form parties or factions within a nation.

 

And I would much rather have a national VOTE to determine ruler, instead of just who has the most people helping them capture ports and no life.  Perhaps down the road we could add some sort of military dictatorship or something.  Leaders are the ones who hold sway with their words, not swords/guns/ships.  They should not be the ones down in the trenches capturing ports and buying flags, but rather rallying their comrades.

Edited by Diggled
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You can build in each other ports

 

Will there be any disadvantages to having buildings (i.e. production) in other nations' ports?

 

Any chance that some terminology can be switched for the US faction? e.g.:

 

Lord Protector = Governor

Parliament = Congress

Ruler = President

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Another thing is... What if the most influencial person in one nation suddenly decides to not play Naval Action anymore?

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Intriguing proposal. I'm convinced this will tie into the (new) crafting system? I bet that's going to change as well? Could you describe a potential scenario? For instance you start as a new player, and you notice political things being discussed in nation chat, what will a new player build up/do to gain political influence and support politically?

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And I would much rather have a national VOTE to determine ruler, instead of just who has the most people helping them capture ports and no life.  Perhaps down the road we could add some sort of military dictatorship or something.  Leaders are the ones who hold sway with their words, not swords/guns/ships.  They should not be the ones down in the trenches capturing ports and buying flags, but rather rallying their comrades.

 

Representation through Participation.

If you have not captured land for your country - why should you vote?

You need 2 hours to capture the port in mexico. Maybe 20-30 mins if it is undefended

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Another thing is... What if the most influencial person in one nation suddenly decides to not play Naval Action anymore?

 

You can be very influential but if you don't login in the right time your votes don't matter. 

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Will estate holders lose their land after an x amount of time if they don't do something or if they don't meet a y requirement? There should be a risk of losing it to guarantee that the same people won't decide for things over and over.

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Who can vote:

  • Voting system is based on the simplest and oldest mechanic of all. Owning land.
  • If you own land you can vote – you are the landlord – or simply lord
  • If you don’t own land you can exhibit heroic feats – then you can become a lord and get land by lets say winning a lot in PVP
  • If you don’t have heroic feats you can marry into the Lordship by buying a special item
  • To get land you have to capture a port. Thats why all ports start neutral (except for capitals)
  • Every port grants from 25 to X estates depending on port size
  • After you won the port battle you are allocated estates based on your rank
  • If there are less winners than 25 lord protector gets the difference
  • Lord protector is a person who earned most victory points in the port battle (port assault flag will be abandoned)

 

If we own the land, please give us the option to transfer port (or the estates) ownership to a different player of the same faction at will.

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Representation through Participation.

If you have not captured land for your country - why should you vote?

You need 2 hours to capture the port in mexico. Maybe 20-30 mins if it is undefended

 

     What happens if you are the most decorated PvP player in your nation...interdicting enemy ships boarding and capping 4-8 ships a day and causing grief for your nations enemy's traders.    What happens if you are your nations level 50 ship builders, spending hours making ship parts and sailing for materials and pumping out the ships needed for Port Battles.    Why should they vote?  A nation's influencial people are more than just a bunch of people running around doing undefended port battles. They are actually individuals or groups of individuals doing important deeds and tedious tasks rather than a couple of people going to an uncontested port battle.   The fleet leaders gathering up the players and ships to do the battle?  The Fleet leaders making arrangements between fleets to gather and organize port attack forces and screening fleets.  It just comes down to who shows up and damages the most towers?   I disagree.  I think the whole system is going to go very wrong.  I can also see a very large window for exploiting.  Very concerned ..... I must say.   Do I have a better solution no, but I would rather see it stay in the current format than go to this system.

Edited by Sir Henry de Montfort
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     What happens if you are the most decorated PvP player in your nation...interdicting enemy ships boarding and capping 4-8 ships a day and causing grief for your nations enemy's traders.    What happens if you are your nations level 50 ship builders, spending hours making ship parts and sailing for materials and pumping out the ships needed for Port Battles.    Why should they vote?  A nation's influencial people are more than just a bunch of people running around doing undefended port battles. They are actually individuals or groups of individuals doing important deeds and tedious tasks rather than a couple of people going to an uncontested port battle.  I disagree.  I think the whole system is going to go very wrong.  I can also see a very large window for exploiting.  Very concerned ..... I must say.   Do I have a better solution no, but I would rather see it stay in the current format than go to this system.

 

We doubt ports will be undefended in the new system.

It seems that you either did not read my original post AT ALL!

Decorated war heroes are mentioned in the original post as well as potential to purchase the title

Our comment referred to the proposal = everyone votes like it is 1920

 

Statement to all

This topic is moderated. Think before posting and read statements carefully BEFORE JUMPING TO CONCLUSIONS Otherwise you might be deemed as an off topic poster and ranter. 

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I dont really like this system as it places way too much power AND responsibility in the hand of an individual.

That would depend on how many "individuals" end up voting. Particularly admin wrote this:

 

"If you don’t own land you can exhibit heroic feats – then you can become a lord and get land by lets say winning a lot in PVP"

 

25 players can win a port battle at once. I would assume that being part of enough port battles would give you the power to vote as well, and suddenly that voting power is spread rapidly across many players who should be holding it in the first place: Those who fight port battles.

 

I don't want a system where port governance ended in the hands of the biggest PVE grinder who flat out bought the power *cough*that other game*cough*

and neither do I want the players who only argue on nation chat about RVR and never actually go to a port battle or support an assault / defense fleet end up voting for a war those who actually end up having to fight it do not want.

If a vocal majority of non-PVP players in Sweden decide that Sweden should capture a few ports from DKN  and declare war through their votes, yet don't show up to defend when the Danish fleet steamrolls their ports in response I can really see this hurting the game in the long run.

Players with no interest in Port battles are not going to quit because the RVR they don't want a part in anyways isn't going the way they want.

Players interested in RVR and port battles will quickly throw the towel if they feel like those who don't support them dictate their actions.

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I must say that, as a basis this feudalist-constitutional system of lordship might work quite nice. It will for sure bring up many uproar with the non-fighting class. Their power eventually comes their ability to deliver or not the goods the Lords need. Ships mainly. So there's a balance between both powers.

 

Regarding the Rebel Lords, I got the idea and it seems like a good way to settle domestic issues, but one question regarding it - Does a allied nation can participate in the civil war for any of the fighting parties ?

 

And...

 

 

The rulers/parliament initiate the proposal.

The proposal is voted by lords.

If both nations have proposed and voted the peaceful change in the national relationship it is formally signed for 30 days (or longer?) and must be mutual

War can be shorter (until war points level reached declaring a winner) and does not have to be mutual

 

 

How is this handled in regards of

 

Any nation can have 2 alliances (maybe three) to eventually force all nations into 3 blocks.

 

 

Can any Status Quo be voted at any time or only when the term runs out ? Are there any penalties for breaking an aliance ?

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I love the update, I am fairly amused NA is embracing the naturally occuring civil war thing that has evolved in alpha.  I'm willing to try it, but it seems a bit of a poison to the social unity that you guys seemed to want to implement pre open world release.

 

I highly disagree with giving power to the most active. Guild leaders who have the social skilllset for leadership will be forced to appease or answer to their most active members [who may be irrational kids].

 

 

Representation through Participation.

If you have not captured land for your country - why should you vote?

 

A lot of time is spent on guild administration by the leader + officers!

Edited by Monkey Bullet
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Can any Status Quo be voted at any time or only when the term runs out ? Are there any penalties for breaking an aliance ?

 

We believe that nation should not be able to break the alliance. If you voted for it you thought twice. If you are not sure - dont sign an alliance.

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Who can vote:

  • Voting system is based on the simplest and oldest mechanic of all. Owning land.
  • If you own land you can vote – you are the landlord – or simply lord
  • If you don’t own land you can exhibit heroic feats – then you can become a lord and get land by lets say winning a lot in PVP
  • If you don’t have heroic feats you can marry into the Lordship by buying a special item
  • To get land you have to capture a port. Thats why all ports start neutral (except for capitals)
  • Every port grants from 25 to X estates depending on port size
  • After you won the port battle you are allocated estates based on your rank
  • If there are less winners than 25 lord protector gets the difference
  • Lord protector is a person who earned most victory points in the port battle (port assault flag will be abandoned)

Number of estates owned determines your court rank. Your court rank might give you additional points.

  • Person with most estates will become a ruler
  • Top 50 (or maybe more) estate owners become parliament
  • They get a separate parliament chat for private political discussions

 

I like the historical premise, I really do, but I fear a system that is taken over by a zerg or similar power. Would it be possible to have a failsafe system where, if needed, certain actions could be overruled by the "Ruling Monarch" (i.e. devs/head moderator of a server)?

 

 

National decisions are enforced by design.

If captains don't like national policies - capture more ports and change the decision. Maybe a large guild in opposition to a government should get an option to become a rebel, starting a civil war allowing them to capture ports from existing owners getting votes to change national decision deposing a current ruler. Foreign nations can incite civil wars and pay rebels to weaken enemy nations

 

This sounds very interesting; is this the ability of large/multiple guilds being able to create their own factions. Furthermore, will clans wishing to do this have to first win their independence in some way? (Capture a specific/x number of ports or sink x number of ships from their mother country?)

 

 

Potential other states of national relationship

  • Trade war

 

Would parliaments be able to insight things such as trade embargoes and taxes on goods from certain nations? Or perhaps tariffs to be implemented by Lord Protectors for their individual port?

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Hello Admin.

 

Could you give a simple example of how the system works.

Let's say I wish my nation (Britain) to have peace with Spain. What requirements must I meet to propose this vote?

Also, how do I actually create this as a vote?

 

Thanks

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Hello Admin.

 

Could you give a simple example of how the system works.

Let's say I wish my nation (Britain) to have peace with Spain. What requirements must I meet to propose this vote?

Also, how do I actually create this as a vote?

 

Thanks

 

Historically it worked like that

The Commons send up their bills by forty members, who present the bill with three low bows. The Lords send their bills to the commons by a mere clerk. In case of disagreement the two Houses confer in the Painted Chamber. The Peers seated and covered, The commons standing and bareheaded. 

 

In the game you will click on the Nation in the Politics tab and select a vote. But of course you can imagine that it is you sending the proposal by a mere clerk. 

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 I have a concern of what would happen if some of the clans capture the early and more secure ports that almost never would be attacked and yet gain just as much of a bonus as the clans fighting on the front lines holding contested ports. Would there be any kind of solution to benefit the clans fighting over more contested ports compared to being fat and happy and owning ports that don't get attacked for 2 months?

 

 Maybe adding a form of taxatio/maintenance for land? If they fail to continue paying for this then the port goes up for auction in the capital? Then the problem would be the timezone bidding and when the actual auction would end? I don't know I just thought I needed to throw this concern out there, I absolutely love what y'all have come up with so far.

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Historically it worked like that

The Commons send up their bills by forty members, who present the bill with three low bows. The Lords send their bills to the commons by a mere clerk. In case of disagreement the two Houses confer in the Painted Chamber. The Peers seated and covered, The commons standing and bareheaded. 

 

In the game you will click on the Nation in the Politics tab and select a vote. But of course you can imagine that it is you sending the proposal by a mere clerk. 

 

OK, so as long as I am a landowner (Lord) I can propose a vote?

Does the vote have requirements to pass? Such as, at least 30% of a nation's players must cast a vote or the vote is invalid.

And finally, can I propose votes as often as I like or will there be a limit as to how many I can initiate per month?

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OK, so as long as I am a landowner (Lord) I can propose a vote?

Does the vote have requirements to pass? Such as, at least 30% of a nation's players must cast a vote or the vote is invalid.

And finally, can I propose votes as often as I like or will there be a limit as to how many I can initiate per month?

 

Because there is limited number of things you can vote on no-one needs to propose a vote. 

If there are things where vote propositions are required (war declaration maybe) then only members of the parliament can propose the vote. To get to parliament you need to be one of the top estate owners. 

 

That also raises value of smaller nations for medium size guilds. You can be no-body in large populated nation, but you can be a member of the parliament in a smaller nation

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 I have a concern of what would happen if some of the clans capture the early and more secure ports that almost never would be attacked and yet gain just as much of a bonus as the clans fighting on the front lines holding contested ports. Would there be any kind of solution to benefit the clans fighting over more contested ports compared to being fat and happy and owning ports that don't get attacked for 2 months?

 

 

 

There will be no front lines. If you don't intercept the assault fleet it can sail anywhere. There will be no assault flag as well. 

No more 10 battles per day + longer cooldowns. 

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Because there is limited number of things you can vote on no-one needs to propose a vote. 

If there are things where vote propositions are required (war declaration maybe) then only members of the parliament can propose the vote. To get to parliament you need to be one of the top estate owners. 

 

That also raises value of smaller nations for medium size guilds. You can be no-body in large populated nation, but you can be a member of the parliament in a smaller nation

 

That answers my questions, thank you.

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I agree with the crtitcism of putting too much power in the hands of those that might not be the actual contributors to national unity? What about arranged port flipping between clans of different nations to scew the power balance in the direction of a rogue clan instead of the actualy majority clans?

 

Why is that contribution only measured in attendance of port battles? Why is there no other means of contributing to national wars? I personally consider myself a frigate captain and sail in screening fleets rather than port battle fleets - a port-battle-only merit system will mean that my useful service will not translate in to having a say in political matters... And don't forget that only 25 people can ever be in a port battle, while many more than those 25 people are involved in the national war effort. IF the same 25 people (such as the dedicated [RUS] clan in Denmark on PvP1, for example) always fight in port battles, does that mean they automatically have more power over the entire Danish nation by doing so? And other clans need to wage even more war just to try to compete?

 

I AGREE that merit for the nation (PvP activity) should grant more say in political affairs than being a passive citizen. But it should affect voting rights, not lead to direct decision making power. If you want to implement politics properly, make clans either into political parties that one can join - or introduce "NPC political parties" that each citizen can join in addition to their clan to reflect their political stance.

 

If most citizens join the "PVE Carebear Party" then the leader will know that their nation is maybe not the big war monger. If most people join the "I hate Nation X" party, then war with that nation might be more useful to declaring a war to another one that has less popularity in the citizenry.

 

A political system needs two things: A way of decision-making for the people that represent the nation - and a toolset for these leaders to figure out what the majority of the playerbase in that nation actually wants.

 

I am not convinced right now, the suggested "port loyalty" system for ports changing hands seems a much more fleshed out approach that could incorporate ways of earning merit with more than just participating in a port battle. - Please give the port loyalty suggestion a better look.

 

Sincerely Yours,

 

Hugo van Grojt

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