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Fluffy Fishy

Victory too weak

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I've never heard of any period source refer to turn rates, although her sailing report reads "steers remarkably well, and wears very quick."

 

 

I´ve only seen one for the Wasa:

 

'Time taken to go about through the wind: Went about, came up into the wind in 2 1/2 minutes'

 

Lots of other observations like rudder position in degrees (3/4 to lee), period of roll in seconds (3), leeway in degrees (1/2).

A pity we don´t have stuff like this for other ships :P

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I´ve only seen one for the Wasa:

 

'Time taken to go about through the wind: Went about, came up into the wind in 2 1/2 minutes'

 

Lots of other observations like rudder position in degrees (3/4 to lee), period of roll in seconds (3), leeway in degrees (1/2).

A pity we don´t have stuff like this for other ships :P

Is this information in English? What source?

 

 

 

The most common species of "live oak" is from America, the wood used in the Victory is a European cousin, sourced mostly from a forest near Weald in sussex, it still grows there and a few other places in britain  :)

Are you sure that by 'cousin' of live oak, you aren't referring merely to, well, oak?

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For what wikipedia is as a reliable source it says that :

 

source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Victory#Construction

 

Thanks very much, I have to say I overlooked wikipedia entirely, I have been scrambling for other sources which frankly don't seem as viable. Still the main problem are the stats not the details of the build :)

Edited by Fluffy Fishy

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Is this information in English? What source?

 

 

Yup, it´s in english, 'The First Naval Architect and his Work' by D. Harris.

 

Page 222 shows a copy of the original Observationstabell (Wasa: Table of Observations, 15 August 1779) made by the captain and the english translation.

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the wiki gives the following

That's close-hauled speed. Maximum recorded speed is 11 knots.

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The most common species of "live oak" is from America, and unless im mistaken as you say the wood used in the Victory is a European cousin, sourced mostly from a forest near Weald in sussex alongside other species of oak, it still grows there and a few other places in Britain :)

 

Do you have a species?

 

Live Oak in the game represents southern live oak and other hard and dense woods.

 

I highly doubt the victory was framed in a wood similar to live oak, otherwise it would have been brought up by one of the many experts during all the previous debates.

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Do you have a species?

 

Live Oak in the game represents southern live oak and other hard and dense woods.

 

I highly doubt the victory was framed in a wood similar to live oak, otherwise it would have been brought up by one of the many experts during all the previous debates.

 

I'm not much an expert on building this kind of ship, talk to me about galleys all you want but this is a bit out of my depth in any real terms. What I have to go on is some slightly irregular sources and the fact that Live oak is growable in the UK, there are some forests on the south coast, mostly situated in Devon, The New forest Area and Sussex. There Is still some stock of these kind of live oak (some listed below), The type of oak used for the Victory was specifically sourced to be the densest, the best coming from Weald in sussex, shipped up to Chatham to build the Victory. The Heavier clay soil in Sussex helps grow denser more resilient oak and by this point trade has brought seeds and saplings of ship building woods and they are being grown by the major nations in their special oak forests :)

Here are two species found in england, there are more but these are the most common :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quercus_ilex

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quercus_agrifolia

 

Edited by Fluffy Fishy

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Holm Oak is very close to White Oak (one type regular Oak in the game represents) and nothing like Southern Live Oak in weight, specific gravity, janka hardness, or in elasticity. Live Oak is 13lbs heavier per foot. Janka hardness for white oak is 1300. 1600 for Holm. 2600-3200 for Southern Live Oak (1.6 to 2 x harder).

Live Oak in the game represents Southern Live Oak, and a few very hard woods found in Cuba and South America. The difference between Southern Live Oak and Lignum Vitea is of course about the same difference between Holm and Southern Live Oak (LV is 1.3 to 1.6 x harder than SLO), but it doesn't float in water and actually sinks. It is 16lbs heavier per foot than Live Oak.

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My Santisima goes 9.24max and turns... well it doesn't  :D. Sailing Victory is a pleasure after that brick. 

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Holm Oak is very close to White Oak (one type regular Oak in the game represents) and nothing like Southern Live Oak in weight, specific gravity, janka hardness, or in elasticity. Live Oak is 13lbs heavier per foot. Janka hardness for white oak is 1300. 1600 for Holm. 2600-3200 for Southern Live Oak (1.6 to 2 x harder).

Live Oak in the game represents Southern Live Oak, and a few very hard woods found in Cuba and South America. The difference between Southern Live Oak and Lignum Vitea is of course about the same difference between Holm and Southern Live Oak (LV is 1.3 to 1.6 x harder than SLO), but it doesn't float in water and actually sinks. It is 16lbs heavier per foot than Live Oak.

You sure know a lot about wood types, thanks for sharing :) looks like I was slightly mislead about the wood type

My Santisima goes 9.24max and turns... well it doesn't :D. Sailing Victory is a pleasure after that brick.

what mods do you have to make that so poor at sailing? how do you even play with a ship like that do you just point it in a direction and shoot like some kind of slightly mobile gun platform? Edited by Fluffy Fishy

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what mods do you have to make that so poor at sailing? how do you even play with a ship like that do you just point it in a direction and shoot like some kind of slightly mobile gun platform?

Live oak, build strength, rolled stiffness, exceptional extra planking, improved magazine access, reinforced masts. Has almost 15k hit points on each broadside. Perfect for port battles, pretty much horrible for everything else.

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Live oak is not used for planking according to Wikipedia as the trees are too short. Further Wikipedia states that Victory was built from Oak not Live Oak. Victory was also not that popular a ship reading the accounts, it spent a lot of time out of service and was only called out when another 1st rate was lost. I think a lot of the comments of its virtues are from looking through rose tinted glasses. At the time of Trafalgar Royal Sovereign was much faster having been recently coppered and that alone would account for some very significant variations in speed.

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Placing SoLs in ordinary was common practice when the ships weren´t needed, it´s not a sign that a ship wasn´t 'popular'*

And a coppered ship doesn´t have a speed advantage over a ship with a clean hull that has been treated with White/Brown/Black Stuff if it´s right out of the docks. Speed advantages only became noticable after 3 to 6 months at sea.

When was Victory coppered, by the way? Early 1780s?

 

 

* For example, the frigate Southampton, with a career that spanned over half a century, spent almost a decade in ordinary. She was a favourite command throughout and George III. was onboard twice to watch the fleet reviews of 1778 and 1789.

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Do you really compare the Ingermanland with the Connie? I mean, the Ingermanland is a SOL, the Connie a heavy frigate. Its like comparing a Tiger with a Panther (i mean the tanks, for sure.) Rating means not they are in same class (Cerb and Trinc for example)

Edited by Sturer Guenther

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Do you really compare the Ingermanland with the Connie? I mean, the Ingermanland is a SOL, the Connie a heavy frigate. Its like comparing a Tiger with a Panther (i mean the tanks, for sure.) Rating means not they are in same class (Cerb and Trinc for example)

 

There is nothing wrong with comparing the Ingermanland to the Constitution, they are both similar size ships that take a very similar size crew number to produce totally different results, the idea is you have the option between the two, not that they are the same ship, the comparison is one that comes out of difference not out of similarities but having roughly the same requirements, in the game it is a choice, sure one is an earlier 3rd rate and the other is a much later heavy frigate but the rating system isnt the point. In game its the choice between a tough ship thats a little faster with less firepower struck against a more flimsy hull loaded with more of, and more powerful guns. The Comparison works quite nicely, much better than the ingermanland vs a 3rd vs a Bellona or comparatively a constitution vs a trinc vs an essex.

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If you think a Inge can stand in a line, take it up against a bunch of Pavels or stronger.

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Do you really compare the Ingermanland with the Connie? I mean, the Ingermanland is a SOL, the Connie a heavy frigate. Its like comparing a Tiger with a Panther (i mean the tanks, for sure.) Rating means not they are in same class (Cerb and Trinc for example)

 

The Royal Navy actually built their own heavy frigates (HMS Leander(1813), HMS Newcastle) to counter the US 44 gun frigates. Wikipedia alludes that this was done because even the older 64 gun 3rd rates lacked the firepower to take them on.

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The Royal Navy actually built their own heavy frigates (HMS Leander(1813), HMS Newcastle) to counter the US 44 gun frigates. Wikipedia alludes that this was done because even the older 64 gun 3rd rates lacked the firepower to take them on.

 

This issue was not that a 64 couldn't outgun them, but that the 64 couldn't catch them. Yes the Constitution was as heavily built as most British 74s. However, she carried a far lighter armament and far fewer crew, and was far faster. The flush-decked frigates later built by Britain could catch them and have a solid chance of taking them.

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I already posted about this in the individual ship feedback but I have also noticed the ships pump is very fragile, it gets shot out almost instantly in most combat situations. Have others found this true too? much more than the santissima or the pavel.

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The Victory's max speed was 11 knots so if it can reach that ingame it is fine the way it is  (I have not sailed a Vic since NA went on steam)  I agree that the pump seems to get taken out a little fast but I think that is common with most SoL?

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The Victory's max speed was 11 knots so if it can reach that ingame it is fine the way it is  (I have not sailed a Vic since NA went on steam)  I agree that the pump seems to get taken out a little fast but I think that is common with most SoL?

 

Victory speed in game with guns is solidly under 10. As the mods said they are looking at changing it now :)

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