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Hans the Hawk

Broken combat mechanic

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Hi,

 

I'm guessing I'm not the first to point this out, but I don't have time to read every post that might mention it.

 

I love this game and realise it's only Alpha , which is why I hope constuctive critism is helpful.

 

Rather than try to explain how the new mechanic is broken in a long winded way, i'll just give an example of what happened jut now outside port Morant.

 

I was chasing a pirate player suprise when he spotted a battle (brit vs pirate, 50br vs 50br) I was right next to him at this point about to tag. Circle appears ..... he jumped in and it changed to 160 vs 50 2 pirates vs 1 brit , I try to jump in and it says im to close to battle centre, then i move out of battle circle and it won't let me in.

 

Something needs to be changed and soon.

 

Thanks for reading.

 

Hans

 

 

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Bad luck, is all.

 

As far as changing bad luck goes, I do not know what would you propose. As for the example given, there really is nothing wrong per se, as no matter what you do, there will always be that 0.01% case where someone is 0.1s too late.

 

Sux to be you.

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+1 Has

The engage battle needs a rethink. I was previously in favour of the anti gank (1.5 BR limit) but this does not work and causes other issues, major issues!

Tonight we should have had an epic port battle or pre-port battle against the Spanish, probably up to 16 large British and possibly more, but smaller spanish.

Somehow we got tagged into battle outside the port despite being in very tight formation. But we won the initial engagement but lost the flag. Fine. So far this appears to have worked ok as all the British ships pulled were in.

However, despite our large squad being very close coming out of that 1st engagement we were engaged by new Spanish ships. This resulted in a farsical situation of most of our fleet not being able to join because the victory entered second. The number of Spanish ships was probably 2 or 3 to 1. Yet the rest of our fleet was sat on the circle and locked out.

If there had been no anti gank macanic this would have been an epic battle (numbers involved) and the British would probably have won. As it was the British lost half the fleet with the other half sat outside with nothing to do.

Locked out.

So I have had to change my position. The bread limit is a problem. And sadly the timer may be the only way to go. BT limit ratio does not stop the initial gank anyway, it makes the anti gank response more difficult.

Edited by Carljcharles
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Yeah i dont like it, causes more problems then it was intended, there wasnt really much wrong with the 2 minute window and open BR, I would like to see a good discussion on a better port battle system that doesnt involve all this flag and screening garbage, its hardly good gameplay, the POTBS system was far better then tis one, i think that we can put our heads together and find an even better one.

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Between this broken mechanic and the trollish behavior in this forum - I am simply moving over to other games to "test".

 

Keep this in mind dev's = K.I.S.S. = the simplest solution is usually the best.

 

IOW- 2 min timer and the ability to call AI reinforcement worked just fine (except for some exploiters abusing it, just fine tune it to foil exploiters) - no need to reinvent the game.

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+1 Has

The engage battle needs a rethink. I was previously in favour of the anti gank (1.5 BR limit) but this does not work and causes other issues, major issues!

So I have had to change my position. The bread limit is a problem. And sadly the timer may be the only way to go. BT limit ratio does not stop the initial gank anyway, it makes the anti gank response more difficult......

We had this happen on day 1 of the big patch dropping. Its absoloutley rubbish especially as both sides are out for a rumble just to get divided by numbers. I hate it when games get all gamey like this. 

Reference post: 

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/13144-leak-sunk-issue/page-7

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I was there during this incident and also tried to join.

 

IIRC this was due to the, you cant join an AI battle but enemies can rather than anything to do with BR i believe?  Still a really weird mechanic.

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 Still a really weird mechanic.

 

I think they meant well. All I can figure is they listened to too many arena players trying to make the open world one giant arena or they haven't been paying very close attention to other PVP games.

 

The concept of open world gets lost when people over think it.

 

Imagine if you would this mechanic in a Fantasy MMO (Guild Wars, Shadowbane, DAOC etc). Here you are a burly Warrior with your big sword and you come up on one of your Cleric friends in the fight of his life with an enemy Mage. You go to attack the Mage to help your Cleric friend but alas! You can't help because he is already engaged in combat. You basically just stand around and watch him die.

 

Imagine your are playing a shooter MMO like Planetside or Day Z, you go to head shot the enemy while he runs across the court yard but alas! Sorry you can't shoot him, he is already locked in combat with someone else!

 

Open fights in NA should be no different than open fights in any other MMO. If you put a restriction on fighting that would be silly in any other open world MMO it is probably going to be pretty silly in NA as well.

 

NA responses to open world complaints should be no different than Guild Wars and Planetside are.  

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A simple join timer to limit warping across an ocean to join a fight - combined with modest anti ganking like "call AI reinforcement" to balance the BR when ganked - is all we ever needed.

 

The wierd BR convolutions and wierd tag circle bullcrap are in response to the spike in ganking that happened when the "call AI reinforcement" was turned off because some "folks" were exploiting it to overlevelup.

 

----

 

Now that you can't cap the ships in a reinforcement fleet - who cares if the "folks" shoot the hell out of them to level up?

 

----

 

Just turn "call AI reinforcement" back on - reinstitute a 2 or 3 min join timer and lose all the wierd hoops to jump through to get into a fight and = job done.

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A simple join timer to limit warping across an ocean to join a fight - combined with modest anti ganking like "call AI reinforcement" to balance the BR when ganked - is all we ever needed.

 

The wierd BR convolutions and wierd tag circle bullcrap are in response to the spike in ganking that happened when the "call AI reinforcement" was turned off because some "folks" were exploiting it to overlevelup.

 

----

 

Now that you can't cap the ships in a reinforcement fleet - who cares if the "folks" shoot the hell out of them to level up?

 

----

 

Just turn "call AI reinforcement" back on - reinstitute a 2 or 3 min join timer and lose all the wierd hoops to jump through to get into a fight and = job done.

 

 

First off, the AI reinforcements never deterred gankers. They were a minor inconvenience both for gankers and for lone raiders capping trade ships (tag trader, he calls reinforcements, attacker caps trader, then has to waste time PVEing before he can make off with his prize). Even with the new AI accuracy, bots still can't chase. So the choice of the attacked is still try and run and hopefully get away while the bots swim along behind the attackers, or mingle with the bots and hope not to sink before the bots sink the players. Either way, it was a crappy mechanic and I'm glad its gone.

 

The 1.5x BR rule is not there to prevent overwhelming ganks. Overwhelming ganks are still possible by simply sailing together, which is by design. The only "hoop" to get into a battle is actually sticking with your fleet. What it does prevent is people hiding in port or in a trader battle while a "bait" ship sits outside and either tags or gets tagged so the rest of the hidden fleet can pile in.

 

I realize there's more than one way to prevent this (namely invulnerability timer vs open battle timer), but the other ways to limit this run the chance of messing with port flag mechanics and OW mechanics. IIRC, earlier this year there were complaints that a faction was able to carry a flag from one port to the target port (next over) before invulnerability wore off. 120 second invulnerability timer may bring this back, as well as complaints that people have too long to escape from a hostile area after they leave a battle. The other option would be to lower battle timers to 1:30 or 1:45, which I would prefer not. I think we've hit the sweet spot at 2 minutes.

 

And honestly, I'm glad there's no more of the silly tackler running far ahead to tag a player, then having a fleet of heavier ships dropping in once the tackler has pinned him. Coupled with the spawn distances, the tackler now faces a real chance of getting sunk before backup arrives, which given how OW sailing translates to battle instance spawn locations now, more closely mirrors reality.

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I think they meant well. All I can figure is they listened to too many arena players trying to make the open world one giant arena or they haven't been paying very close attention to other PVP games.

The concept of open world gets lost when people over think it.

The concept of open world combat is inevitably lost to some degreee with instanced combat, so there must be mechanisms to compensate for the disconnect. People say this limiter is "fake" and "unnatural" but the ability to race ahead in a fast ship and pin someone into an instance while unlimited numbers of heavy and / or spread out ships then pile into the instance is fundamentally fake and unnatural. The new system effectively compensates for that:

-you are encouraged to stay together if you want to join together. There are zero restrictions on groups sailing together and attacking whatever they want. But it means they have to trade flexibility for mass, i.e. act like a mutually supporting fleet relative to OW time compression and scale.

-you are discouraged from keeping ships out of the initial instance to exploit the new relative join location mechanics (which are excellent and necessary for land in battles).

That said, I do not like the 1.5x BR mechanic because although it works in most circumstances, the circumstances where it doesn't work lead to overly complex, messy and confusing instance creation. But I believe the 1.5x BR mechanic could easily be replaced by an expanding join circle for reinforcements that translates into increased distance in the instance. It would accomplish both of the objectives listed above.

And also, any BR based mechanic applied to PvP will be fundamentally broken until there is a numbers modifier for BR.

Imagine if you would this mechanic in a Fantasy MMO (Guild Wars, Shadowbane, DAOC etc). Here you are a burly Warrior with your big sword and you come up on one of your Cleric friends in the fight of his life with an enemy Mage. You go to attack the Mage to help your Cleric friend but alas! You can't help because he is already engaged in combat. You basically just stand around and watch him die.

I don't believe combat is instanced there (or not to the same degree? I don't recall.), but let's pretend for a moment that it is: assuming your friend does not already have a significant advantage over the mage (and if he does, why is he certain to die?), you can freely join and help your friend with the most powerful weapon in the game. You and multiple friends can join and help up to and surpassing a 1.5x combat power advantage. You really can't help your friend?

Imagine your are playing a shooter MMO like Planetside or Day Z, you go to head shot the enemy while he runs across the court yard but alas! Sorry you can't shoot him, he is already locked in combat with someone else!

Irrelevant, as the combat is not instanced. Would the enemy have run across the courtyard in the first place if he wasn't able to check the opposite windows before doing so?

Open fights in NA should be no different than open fights in any other MMO. If you put a restriction on fighting that would be silly in any other open world MMO it is probably going to be pretty silly in NA as well.

NA responses to open world complaints should be no different than Guild Wars and Planetside are.

Open fights in NA must be different because they are not truly open. Instancing is already a fake and artificial restriction on fighting that tends to favor the side with numbers and / or combat power.

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There is an even bigger problem here. 

Yesterday evening I was chased by a gaggle of Pirates, all well behind my Gros Ventre, except for one Surprise. She attacked me and when the timer was up, at first she was the only one with me, a long way off, so it wouldn't have been a big problem to shake her off.

 

But all of a sudden the Pirates' buddies joined in, but not in the place where they would have been supposed to be by any logic and laws of physics, mind you, but I found myself surrounded by the bunch even before that weird "battle start timer" ran down to zero, and had not the slightest chance of escape.

 

I lost almost a 100000 Gold (purchase price, that is!) to that ridiculous game mechanic! It defies logic. How can a fleet that would have been miles away in reality surround you in seconds????

That is just insane.

 

I'm so pissed off, I don't like to play any more!

 

I hate it when this game, supposed to bring the feeling of the Age of Sail, breaks the laws of nature (I'm a natural scientist, so I'm a little nit-picky about it).

 

Get rid of this silly circle around the battle and suck everybody in at the start of the battle so that everybody is in the right position or leave them out altogether!

And let the game start without that silly timer at the beginning. No naval battle ever started with furled sails (another very ridiculous thing!)

 

As it is now, for me, it kills every bit of immersion that has been generated by this game so far. Wouldn't it be an alpha with a chance of getting better, I would be very sad about having paid any money for it...

Alas, I'm only hoping for a better solution soon.

 

 

 

Edited by daHeld

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What about groups of people sitting in closed battle lobbies with one friend outside. They wait till someone comes by and the one person engages them then the rest zone out of the previous battle and jump into the new battle. Or they see you coming and they all zone out at just the right time to get pulled into your battle so its half a dozen on one.

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And let the game start without that silly timer at the beginning. No naval battle ever started with furled sails (another very ridiculous thing!)

 

 

 

 

 

This won't get changed. 

It is a multiplayer game and if you start at speed you might ram into someone (Or someone will ram into you) because everyone has a different loading time. He might still be loading and he will not know that you are turning right - he will ram and sink you both losing you an important battle

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There is an even bigger problem here. 

Yesterday evening I was chased by a gaggle of Pirates, all well behind my Gros Ventre, except for one Surprise. She attacked me and when the timer was up, at first she was the only one with me, a long way off, so it wouldn't have been a big problem to shake her off.

 

But all of a sudden the Pirates' buddies joined in, but not in the place where they would have been supposed to be by any logic and laws of physics, mind you, but I found myself surrounded by the bunch even before that weird "battle start timer" ran down to zero, and had not the slightest chance of escape.

 

I lost almost a 100000 Gold (purchase price, that is!) to that ridiculous game mechanic! It defies logic. How can a fleet that would have been miles away in reality surround you in seconds????

That is just insane.

 

I'm so pissed off, I don't like to play any more!

 

I hate it when this game, supposed to bring the feeling of the Age of Sail, breaks the laws of nature (I'm a natural scientist, so I'm a little nit-picky about it).

 

Get rid of this silly circle around the battle and suck everybody in at the start of the battle so that everybody is in the right position or leave them out altogether!

And let the game start without that silly timer at the beginning. No naval battle ever started with furled sails (another very ridiculous thing!)

 

As it is now, for me, it kills every bit of immersion that has been generated by this game so far. Wouldn't it be an alpha with a chance of getting better, I would be very sad about having paid any money for it...

Alas, I'm only hoping for a better solution soon.

I had the unfortuatous experience Saturday as well. I am a Strong PvE player. I cant stand the "Crap" that  goes with playing against other players. Whichios why I DONT play WOT or WOW anymore. OR why, I don't play PvP2 servers here. That is, until Saturday -- when the PvE server went down. So.. instead of bumming around the internet - I logged into the PvP2 server - as American. Not too bad, at first - except as a Flag Captain with NO gold  -- it sucks! lol

 

But grabbed a basic Cutter and started pillaging all those Contraband carriers. Soon (6 hours later) I had enough to grab a Surprise. Then from there, a LGV. Now! ... I can go trader raiding at will and rake up some some funds --- so I thought. I got into my surprise again and took on a Ventre -- my 4th on the PvP2 server -- I took a good look around, to check on players nearby - before jumping in --and as I saw no one (as I had done all day) - I initiated the combat. About 30 seconds into the battle - I go to check to see if anyone else is coming.. saw no-one. Afater about 1:45 into the battle, I got presence of mind to check to see what the caliber of the LGV Capt was, and that is when I saw that a Rennommee had joined the frey. Where the hell did he come from? There was no one around my battle when I started it, and no one 30 seconds into it But NOw... a full 2minutes into this battle There he was ... far off .. but coming fast. BULLSHIT!

 

in short, I lost my Surprise -- cause not only did he jump into the game after I had started my combat withteh LGV, and was getting damaged -- but this Renom, had over 300 crew to boot! --- and evidently 50 freaking PUMPS! Because when he finally got to the battle, and I had to deal with him - I gave him in 4 volleys 18 leaks -- 4-6-5-3, then 2 volleys later another 3 .. so in less than 4 minutes he is dealing with 21 leaks ... HOW? and he never lost combat effectiveness -- or drew lower in the water --- NEVER! He simply steamed rolled up on my Surprise ... and capped me. Yeah -- even one of his melee rounds resulted in him using deck guns (all 2 of them) for 87 of my crew killed! So much BULLSHIT! 

 

Yall can keep that POS PvP server and the ganking crap. Here is a better fix --- keep the original players boats out in OW --- for all to see -- and to see all .. until the battle starts --- at least then you will have a decent chance of seeing who is entering the battle. As it is currently ... you start the conflict and poof -- after the 20 second countdown the initiator and target disappear -- then you are transported to the "Battle sea"  -- all the while you do NOT see who is on the OW, that is passing by, and decides to GANK in. That is Bullshit at its finest. Close that gap -- let the initiator see who is coming into battle up to the battle starting ... Don't let these Ball-sac-less wonders join into a battle just because they are too Chickenshit to start one of their own!

 

Sorry if I high jacked your OP --- but it seemed  just like my issue as well ... I wont be going back to the PVP server anytime soon. No wonder why its Losing players!

 

Here is a second suggestion -- REDUCE the outer combat circle -- you have it too wide! This might disallow folks from EXTREME distances from getting into  a battle they are only trying to parasite from.

 

Cheers,

-Yank

 

addn: to the renom player-- you suck A** buddy. next time --- start the battle with just me-- I will kick your A**. Don't wait to get in when I am already 1/3 damaged. Wuss!

Edited by yankyaeger

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This won't get changed. 

It is a multiplayer game and if you start at speed you might ram into someone (Or someone will ram into you) because everyone has a different loading time. He might still be loading and he will not know that you are turning right - he will ram and sink you both losing you an important battle

 

Yes, you're probably right.

So maybe keep the timer, but start under sails. That way it would not look so silly (all the more so since the yards of the furled sails are in a totally wrong position...) and would still be more realistic than it is now.

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The Pirate entered an existing battle this has nothing to do with timer or BR limit. It must of been a mission. Friendlies can not join a mission and thus cannot follow the pirate into battle.

Why was this changed? Because cry babies complaining about friendlies entering a mission and boarding their ship.

Despite the fact the world is massive these whiners had to do their missions outside the capital and did not want other people to enter them so the rules were changed. I said it was a bad move at the time and it still is.

New players need to be aware, if your opening a mission anywhere near some raiders they can pile in and nobody on your own team can help.

Edited by Edward the Black

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I

 

in short, I lost my Surprise -- cause not only did he jump into the game after I had started my combat withteh LGV, and was getting damaged -- but this Renom, had over 300 crew to boot! --- and evidently 50 freaking PUMPS! Because when he finally got to the battle, and I had to deal with him - I gave him in 4 volleys 18 leaks -- 4-6-5-3, then 2 volleys later another 3 .. so in less than 4 minutes he is dealing with 21 leaks ... HOW? and he never lost combat effectiveness -- or drew lower in the water --- NEVER! He simply steamed rolled up on my Surprise ... and capped me. Yeah -- even one of his melee rounds resulted in him using deck guns (all 2 of them) for 87 of my crew killed! So much BULLSHIT! 

 

 

 

do you remember that leaks are the potential leaks - not actual leaks

if those are slightly above water (because of heel or position) it does not matter how many you have - you can have 100 and don't take water at all.

Leaks must go under water to take water into the hull.

 

So in your case he just switched off survival and kept crew in combat.

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I had the unfortuatous experience Saturday as well. I am a Strong PvE player. I cant stand the "Crap" that  goes with playing against other players. Whichios why I DONT play WOT or WOW anymore. OR why, I don't play PvP2 servers here. That is, until Saturday -- when the PvE server went down. So.. instead of bumming around the internet - I logged into the PvP2 server - as American. Not too bad, at first - except as a Flag Captain with NO gold  -- it sucks! lol

 

But grabbed a basic Cutter and started pillaging all those Contraband carriers. Soon (6 hours later) I had enough to grab a Surprise. Then from there, a LGV. Now! ... I can go trader raiding at will and rake up some some funds --- so I thought. I got into my surprise again and took on a Ventre -- my 4th on the PvP2 server -- I took a good look around, to check on players nearby - before jumping in --and as I saw no one (as I had done all day) - I initiated the combat. About 30 seconds into the battle - I go to check to see if anyone else is coming.. saw no-one. Afater about 1:45 into the battle, I got presence of mind to check to see what the caliber of the LGV Capt was, and that is when I saw that a Rennommee had joined the frey. Where the hell did he come from? There was no one around my battle when I started it, and no one 30 seconds into it But NOw... a full 2minutes into this battle There he was ... far off .. but coming fast. BULLSHIT!

 

in short, I lost my Surprise -- cause not only did he jump into the game after I had started my combat withteh LGV, and was getting damaged -- but this Renom, had over 300 crew to boot! --- and evidently 50 freaking PUMPS! Because when he finally got to the battle, and I had to deal with him - I gave him in 4 volleys 18 leaks -- 4-6-5-3, then 2 volleys later another 3 .. so in less than 4 minutes he is dealing with 21 leaks ... HOW? and he never lost combat effectiveness -- or drew lower in the water --- NEVER! He simply steamed rolled up on my Surprise ... and capped me. Yeah -- even one of his melee rounds resulted in him using deck guns (all 2 of them) for 87 of my crew killed! So much BULLSHIT! 

 

Yall can keep that POS PvP server and the ganking crap. Here is a better fix --- keep the original players boats out in OW --- for all to see -- and to see all .. until the battle starts --- at least then you will have a decent chance of seeing who is entering the battle. As it is currently ... you start the conflict and poof -- after the 20 second countdown the initiator and target disappear -- then you are transported to the "Battle sea"  -- all the while you do NOT see who is on the OW, that is passing by, and decides to GANK in. That is Bullshit at its finest. Close that gap -- let the initiator see who is coming into battle up to the battle starting ... Don't let these Ball-sac-less wonders join into a battle just because they are too Chickenshit to start one of their own!

 

Sorry if I high jacked your OP --- but it seemed  just like my issue as well ... I wont be going back to the PVP server anytime soon. No wonder why its Losing players!

 

Here is a second suggestion -- REDUCE the outer combat circle -- you have it too wide! This might disallow folks from EXTREME distances from getting into  a battle they are only trying to parasite from.

 

Cheers,

-Yank

 

addn: to the renom player-- you suck A** buddy. next time --- start the battle with just me-- I will kick your A**. Don't wait to get in when I am already 1/3 damaged. Wuss!

I just read your story about been ganking in pvp2, I think it s quite funny because it just reminds me when I was solo grinding the mission order  to level up too in pvp1 and also been ganked like at least 1 time per day.My first respond to that was exactly like you did, getting mad & upset but then afther awhile I just got used to it and learnt how to deal against it. A friendly advice, next time you enter a mission order, dont engage the battle too fast, go upwind first, stay safe till 2 min to be sure no more ships will enter, that was I ve usually done before to avoid been ganked.

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The Pirate entered an existing battle this has nothing to do with timer or BR limit. It must of been a mission. Friendlies can not join a mission and thus cannot follow the pirate into battle.

Why was this changed? Because cry babies complaining about friendlies entering a mission and boarding their ship.

Despite the fact the world is massive these whiners had to do their missions outside the capital and did not want other people to enter them so the rules were changed. I said it was a bad move at the time and it still is.

New players need to be aware, if your opening a mission anywhere near some raiders they can pile in and nobody on your own team can help.

 

 

I did not open a Mission, I was attacked and then I was surrounded, when in reality the whole bunch should have been way behind me...

Edited by daHeld

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I did not open a Mission, I was attacked and then I was surrounded, when in reality the whole bunch should have been way behind me...

 

A suggestion I saw in the Positional Reinforcements/ROE discussion in the Development section would go a long way to helping fix this (credit goes to Maturin). When a player hits the circle of an active battle, his position is recorded and used as his position to translate into the battle instance. This way, if a player tries to sail all the way around the circle he needs to have pretty much the entire two minutes and good wind to surround the tag-ee. If he tries to just sail across, he will start in battle in the location he originally contacted the circle. This could also be coupled with enlarging both the tag circle and the battle join circle/reducing the join time.

 

EDIT: Corrected Dev thread name

Edited by Enraged Ewok

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I did not open a Mission, I was attacked and then I was surrounded, when in reality the whole bunch should have been way behind me...

 

No worries they are working on taking this positional reinforcement out of the game. They added it originally because of some difficulty with land in the battle instances and spawning if I remember correctly. 

 

Here is the thread Ewok mentioned:

 

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/13584-positional-reinforcements-and-roe/

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Personally I would prefer to keep positional reinforcements, with the requirement that the tag and battle entry circle grows by 30-50% as compared to now, and Maturin's suggestion where players entering after the battle has started enter at the point they first contact the circle after pressing the button.

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A suggestion I saw in the Positional Reinforcements/ROE discussion in the Development section would go a long way to helping fix this (credit goes to Maturin). When a player hits the circle of an active battle, his position is recorded and used as his position to translate into the battle instance. This way, if a player tries to sail all the way around the circle he needs to have pretty much the entire two minutes and good wind to surround the tag-ee. If he tries to just sail across, he will start in battle in the location he originally contacted the circle. This could also be coupled with enlarging both the tag circle and the battle join circle/reducing the join time.

 

EDIT: Corrected Dev thread name

 

 

This is actually a very good solution.

They should adopt it.

Edited by daHeld

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