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ThrottleFox

sinking via leaks not crediting kill

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It might be, because you need to do certain % of total HP to get kill or assist. 

At least previously it was. They might not have changed it, which would explain why sinking ships with Leaks does not reward anything

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It sank before I could turn around to get a 2nd shot off, I sailed past it and fired at the water line, I turned to fire again and before I finished the turn it sank

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It might be, because you need to do certain % of total HP to get kill or assist. 

 

Of course that's the reason, but it's pretty terrible design to punish players for playing well.

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Of course that's the reason, but it's pretty terrible design to punish players for playing well.

 

Terrible design, or unintended consequence of iterative patches?

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Haven't you read all the 'the ai can fight back ermahgawd' posts, everyone knows you can't sink the ai with leaks and they only affect real players and its a miracle you managed to survive cause the npc death lazors didn't get you #sarcasm... thank you for being a decent player and proving my suspicions.

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I was just about to make a post. Poor Frigate sank 20 seconds after my broadside did 32 leaks. Nth time this happens now, quite annoying. Usually robs me of 1-3 kills pr fleet mission *sad panda*

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It might be, because you need to do certain % of total HP to get kill or assist. 

 

That's my guess. Same thing happens if you ram something to death or if someone just turns off survival and lets themselves die to the first leak.

 

 

Kill threshhold should probably be "% of damage done" rather than "% of total hit points".

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I was just about to make a post. Poor Frigate sank 20 seconds after my broadside did 32 leaks. Nth time this happens now, quite annoying. Usually robs me of 1-3 kills pr fleet mission *sad panda*

 

Curious, are you deliberately aiming below the waterline? I usually try to score hits between the gundeck and the topdeck, this causes no leaks, kills cannons and lets me fully destroy ships.

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Curious, are you deliberately aiming below the waterline? I usually try to score hits between the gundeck and the topdeck, this causes no leaks, kills cannons and lets me fully destroy ships.

 

Yes, I was. Not anymore though  ;)  It is quite satisfying seeing a ship sink that quick after a swift broadside though. My tactic is basically get the first ships down quickly, since one is usually spawned with less friends than the enemy (fleet missions), both quantity and quality. So a two-sided broadside in to the first ships that comes up to my sides gets it. 

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Agree. I took out a belle poule with less than 1200 damage done no kill or assist. (24 leaks mind)

I'm slightly worried at this stage of play, does this kind of damage with no kill/ assist affect the damage farming rule "IF" people were able to regularly do this on the PvP server?. It shouldn't affect me on the pve server but does it?.

I just suddenly thought if someone say sunk 30 ships with no kill credit doing 30,000 damage between them would it affect?

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I personally think that regardless of damage done, you sink a ship you should get the kill. I too have noticed that you don't get the kill for sinking them by leaks.

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The Idea that a ship could be sunk by leaks caused from a single broadside is silly.

I can find not a single time that that actually happened in history.

 

The leak model is so removed from reality as to make the game almost unplayable. It was a very rare for a wooden warship to be sunk from leaks caused by cannon fire.

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I can find not a single time that that actually happened in history.

It happened from time to time with (sometimes very) small fighting craft.

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Haven't you read all the 'the ai can fight back ermahgawd' posts, everyone knows you can't sink the ai with leaks and they only affect real players and its a miracle you managed to survive cause the npc death lazors didn't get you #sarcasm... thank you for being a decent player and proving my suspicions.

 

when you fight a IA Niagara or Mercury in a Trinco, if you place the first boardside correctly (under wind and with the right angle), you can open 5-6 leaks in them and they sink in 10 seconds.

Edited by victor

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The Idea that a ship could be sunk by leaks caused from a single broadside is silly.

I can find not a single time that that actually happened in history.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_HMS_Peacock

:)

 

Hornet raked Peacock and forced her to strike in 4 minutes of fighting. Upon boarding, they found she was so badly damaged from the hits that saving her was impossible, despite throwing guns overboard to lighten her. She sank while some of both ships' crew were still aboard her, drowning 10-12 American and British sailors in her hull.

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when you fight a IA Niagara or Mercury in a Trinco, if you place the first boardside correctly (under wind and with the right angle), you can open 5-6 leaks in them and they sink in 10 seconds.

 

You don't even have to be in a Trinco for this. I sunk a player Niagara this week with my carronade Mercury doing this.

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Causing a ship to strike colors from a single broadside is a much different thing than sinking it from leaks caused by cannonballs. 


By far the most likely result from a decisive sea battle was striking colors due to crew loss from cannon fire or being boarded. A wooden warship was very rarely sunk due to leaks below the waterline. 


 


You might be able to find a very small boat sunk from a single broadside in history, but that is not what is happening in this game. Again the idea that a wooden warship could be sunk because of leaks from a single broadside is silly and it did not happen before the advent of explosive shells. 


 


Every warship had tapered wooden plugs in various sizes distributed around the ship. It was a simple matter to drive the plug into the hole to stop the leak. As long as there were living humans aboard who did not want to swim home the leaks were quickly plugged.  

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Causing a ship to strike colors from a single broadside is a much different thing than sinking it from leaks caused by cannonballs. 

By far the most likely result from a decisive sea battle was striking colors due to crew loss from cannon fire or being boarded. A wooden warship was very rarely sunk due to leaks below the waterline. 

 

You might be able to find a very small boat sunk from a single broadside in history, but that is not what is happening in this game. Again the idea that a wooden warship could be sunk because of leaks from a single broadside is silly and it did not happen before the advent of explosive shells. 

 

Every warship had tapered wooden plugs in various sizes distributed around the ship. It was a simple matter to drive the plug into the hole to stop the leak. As long as there were living humans aboard who did not want to swim home the leaks were quickly plugged.  

 

 

This. The game is greatly exaggerated in that we at all fire at each other till a ship sinks. It'd take one hell of a number of structural failure for this to at all be possible, and a captain who sacrificed his crew the way we do in-game would soon be stripped of any command and likely even hang from the gallows.

 

I've been searching my hiney off, and it seems to pretty much be conclusive that no ship-of-the-line ever has sunk from gunfire, excluding explosions as a result of fires caused by gunfire and which the crew failed to put out, and excluding damage to the steering that caused ships to run aground or colliding and getting entangled with other ships who failed to evade. The earlier posted example of HMS Peacock is the largest ship I can find.

 

In-game however there is zero incitement for a player to strike colours, but at least this will change for the most expensive ships with the crew patch.

Edited by Inkompetent

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Curious, are you deliberately aiming below the waterline? I usually try to score hits between the gundeck and the topdeck, this causes no leaks, kills cannons and lets me fully destroy ships.

yeah .. but a SUNK ship does not fire back, as often! .... I am kidding about the "often" part. ;)

 

So, Target ship HAS to take a certain percentage of damage, overall, before credit is given. This is not a known amount (ie 30%, 40% ...etc..) but it has to be reached, for anyone involved in shooting it, gets credit. 

 

Thus if that HP damage threshold is not met, and a lucky (skilled) player shoots at just the right moment and catches a lot of exposed KEEL (Producing an immense # of leaks) .... they are not going to see the fruits of their labor (In credits/score) - if it sinks as a result.

 

ugh ... needs fixing! I don't like "playing" with the prey! I am definitely not out to farm damage either! Just a git-R-dun, type of player!

 

So is there a way to compute damage = amount of leakage .. to ascertain kill status for such occasions? I know if I go into battle, I am looking to sink the target with EVERY shot/volley. UNLESS ... I intend to cap it.

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I think the discussion here is suffering from a disconnect between naval gunnery in reality versus ingame, and from a little bit of unintended embellishment. Hear me out.

 

First off, I haven't seen a ship sink due to leaks in a single broadside, and while I don't believe OP would intentionally mislead us, I am leaning towards the possibility that there were some leaks from previous volleys before massive number of leaks in the final one. Not to mention, an Ingermanland has just short of a full 3rd rate's throw weight thanks to the 32s, and was shooting at 12pd frigate.

 

From my personal experience, I was only able to sink a player Brig with my Mercury after several broadsides aimed specifically at his waterline, and he was unable to close up the 24pder holes fast enough (this may be coloring how I see this). I also have an anecdote from clanmates where an AI Pavel sank with most of its hull intact, but only after 4 broadsides from 1st  rates aimed specifically for its waterline. My personal feeling is that this lines up with what be physically expected in reality, and what I have observed in game. A large number of holes open up (thirty or more, and a good chunk of those from very heavy guns), and if the ship's orientation is correct water quickly floods the lower decks and the ship founders. Depending on the size and number of holes, the crew can't find and plug them fast enough to save the ship. 

 

Secondly, the disconnect between ingame gunnery and reality. Correct me if I am wrong, but the waterline was generally not the target for a ship's gunners. They either fired at the rigging to lame or cripple a pursuer (or target to take prize), or pounded away at the deck and sides of the hull to inflict casualties, knock guns out of action, and destroy the anchor points on the hull for the target's shrouds. Without the shrouds, a ship will be unable to carry much sail for fear of snapping the mast, which  results in the same outcome as shooting directly at the rigging and sails.

 

Ingame gunnery differs, due to inaccuracies in the damage model and a different goal for the combatants. In reality, a ship that has had its hull hammered also had a very high chance of suffering damage to the masts belowdecks or to the anchor points for the shrouds, seriously degrading its ability to maneuver or run. Ingame, this will not be the case until a ship is taking on enough water to begin foundering, at which point it's doomed anyways. If a player ingame is intent on sinking a ship, the quickest way to do so is to cause leaks (this also has the added bonus of pulling large numbers of men off the guns and sails to actually stop the leaking and man the pumps as well), and with video game accuracy a player can be reasonably assured of landing a large portion of his broadside on the waterline at closer ranges, leading to the topic of this discussion.

 

Yes, the result is not historical, but that is entirely because the methods used to obtain the result (aiming specifically for the waterline) was not a historical practice either.

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I believe gameplay should trump historical accuracy up to a point. But now ships are too easily sunk from leaks. The balance before the patch was, in my opinion, about right even though it had way too many ships sunk to be historically accurate.

 

 

This. The game is greatly exaggerated in that we at all fire at each other till a ship sinks. It'd take one hell of a number of structural failure for this to at all be possible, and a captain who sacrificed his crew the way we do in-game would soon be stripped of any command and likely even hang from the gallows.

 

If a ship would automatically strike colors after losing a large portion  ( maybe 60 - 75%) of it's crew, then suicidal captains would have a big incentive to protect their crew.

 

Also I have been seeing too much green on green ramming and shooting so as to sink your own ships to avoid capture. 

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