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Why fighting smaller ships ?

They are more manoeuvrable and smaller target than you (hard to aim). Of course, when at close range, your broadside is devastating on a small ship. But as you stated, part of it may/will miss its target. It's often easier to fight against one ship of your size than two smaller ships. One may rake you while you focus on the other. Moreover, the addition of their guns may overcome your broadside.

As long as you can't deal with  two small preys, try to flee and focus on lonely ship of your size.

I totally agree with what you are saying, was talking bout small ships for two reasons - first, many reports both here and in patch threads are examples of bigger vs smaller ship battles (in my opinion - because in such fights AI superiority - not due to cheats but due to current in game mechanics! - is most clerely visible (and especially irritating if you add quite normal expectation of a player for it to be an easy fight :P)).

Second, few people proposed to those stating problems with AI that they should do lower rank missions in order to improve.

 

To rephrase what I think:

 

1.Low rank missions are too hard for newbies, coz they wont be able to shoot with good enough accuracy to keep up with AI as it is right now, especiallly while still learning how to sail. I totally agree with your proposals of training missions but I think that some nerf to accuracy is needed, at least at first three ranks (two first ranks endured in basic cutter and third being first one to command ship capable of manual sailing), so that people can learn further in full combat environment.

This is only area where I think that AI in itself is a problem.

 

2.Current balance of guns should be taken into consideration. After recent penetration changes small, "rapid fire" cannons are simply superior to their bigger counterparts due to higher damage output. This is obviously showing itself in fights vs smaller vessels, where it is additionaly enhanced by AI accuracy (while players have problems to even hit the small target AI keeps hitting all the time) leading to:

 

     a)those accusations of AI cheating (while actual game mechanics are IMHO at fault here) 

     b)big imbalance of missions of the same rank - version with duo of smaller enemies could easly be even harder than solo mission of higher rank - whis is bad from game design perspective (difficulty of

     missions should  increase with their level).

     c)feeling that armor is no longer a thing unless at extreme ranges (at which AI is again more effective due to superior accuracy)

 

This can only be adressed by changes to the cannons -either by increasing damage of big guns/slowing reload of small ones or (and I prefere this option) by lowering penetration of small cannons, "restoring" armor effectivenes against them on medium ranges (and drawing people out of carronades into mediums and longs used in pvp).

 

3.Modules used by AI should be either totally removed as not needed (allowing players to gain an advantage by actually having them installed) or at least their grade should scale with mission level - new players dont have gold upgrades on their ships.

 

4.About leaks - I`m pretty ok with them as they are right now, with one change in crew management - when survival is on, part of the crew shoudl already be moved there (it is natural that in combat you prepare to repair damage), removing danger of ship sinking before crew is transfered from other posts. Or at least transfer idle crew there instead of boarding.

 

edit: typoes

Edited by Marten van de Voerde
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4. NPC ship capture.
ship capture we are not sure, but we know that many crafters are happy now, despite the fact that all ships up to constitution are now available in NPC stores.

No finally since some time to playing, you need really enable the capture of ship.
Because buying basic ship in shop is boring and in battle, vs for exemple le gros ventre, full marine, musket ect, you lost boarding.
For me this game, 70 % of my fun have to be fighting mission, captured ship send to outpost for make some pvp.
Actually, i have buying a ship, eco player are crazy and put for sall ship with 1 insane price, player call for sell marine or other item 500 000 each ect ect.
I have only actually around 150 000 money. Only again 2 goden 5 dura fregate in la mone and Tumbado. 3 dura trinco in la tortue is fine.
But i like fleet 10%, eco i am lev 25 is ok, i have the time for leveling, craft for me blue item is fine, i hunt some trader found easy material.
But really eco and fleet is max 30 % of my fun.
And i am never playing since i play pirate game, a game without the possibility to capture other ship.
And i am all time use 90 % of my time to play boarding ship.
Actually i have fun but bad spirit, and i see a game for eco player, and waste time fleet/mission non stop.
I have actually stop playing my quest, i no fleet, actually i hunt trader and make pvp.
But in a short time, no ship, no money and really probably stop playing...
 
For all the other else is ok, i like challenge.
And sure IA is more hard and stop mouving in simillard way in simillard time, and make trap for boarding.
Is very good.

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Re: leaks & AI accuracy: I'm having really good success vs smaller AI ships (Lynx, Cutters, Privateers, Pickles) by being meticulous about maintaining the weather gage (staying upwind of the AI).

 

By keeping the weather gage, you will be firing with your leeward (downwind) rail in the water, keeping you "hull down" and making it extremely difficult for the AI to put leaks in your hull... while at the same time forcing them to expose their hull to take shots at you, which you can take advantage of to put red leaks below their waterline.

 

My video on the previous page showed where I put two consecutive broadsides into an AI Trader Brig, doing 5x leaks each time, and sinking it in about a minute... even though its armor wasn't fully stripped on the side I was shooting, and it had nearly full armor all the rest of the way around. So, it seems the AI is playing by similar rules to us, probably with buffs like Extra Pumps & etc.

 

Overall, the challenge is higher but far from insurmountable. After the first couple battles where I had to learn the adjustments, I haven't had serious trouble beating the AI, although it is definitely more difficult than before.

Edited by surfimp
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They can add options like easy mode / medium mode / hard mode / challenging mode...for players of all ranges rewards are  scaled based on the difficulty ofc. But the devs do not seem to understand this and tailor only for veteran players.

 

It's just a small dev team that can't do everything at the same time.

Don't give up. There will surely be adjustments for newcomers (tutorials, easy missions or easy AI at low-end ranks...) some day.

In the meantime, fight traders to learn how to aim at several range ; fight in duel room with a friend, a tutor found in the forum or a guild member ; read online guides, ask specific questions here / ingame chat.

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It's just a small dev team that can't do everything at the same time.

Don't give up. There will surely be adjustments for newcomers (tutorials, easy missions or easy AI at low-end ranks...) some day.

In the meantime, fight traders to learn how to aim at several range ; fight in duel room with a friend, a tutor found in the forum or a guild member ; read online guides, ask specific questions here / ingame chat.

 

Nah i found the fleet missions are a better / easier way for me to rank up and earn more gold, but i do wish they would add something to crafting to allow for dura repair, Ofc not on 1st rates but i can see why losing a 1st rate is pain full, a full week to craft a Gold 1st rate.

 

I did notice an AI bug in fleet missions, 1 ship from each side always goes for boarding, not sure if they are suppose to do that.

Edited by ironhammer500

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The proble is low rank missions, even for an experienced players they are challenging. The early ships have very little armour compared to potential damage. And since AI rarely misses, the margin for error is very small. Now imagine how this is for new players.

 

Everyone claimint AI is fine and we just suck. Get in tour basic cutter and try the 3-4 lowest missions and see how you fare... and then imagine how it is for less capable/new players.

 

That being said, I have no issues with m&c/post captain missions in my appropriate ship, more challenging yes but not impossible. The ships have more armour compared to cannon damage. Note that Mercury uses 6 pounders as does basic cutter, yet cutter has fraction of the armour... here is where the problem is.

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in a port battle today I took 13 leaks from 5 or 6 broadsides at long range. There was no "low hull" aiming involved because we were so far from each other I only saw the names of the ships closest to me.

However, it wasn't anywhere close to sinking my ship.

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So is it safe to say removing multiple-opponents from the non-Admiralty missions is a generally smiled-upon move?   The sheer numbers of shots, plus amount of armor you have to carve through is way disproportionate to a 1v1 fight which (assumedly) you'd be wanting to participate in as a solo mission.

Edited by Nerdwing

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This game is really good, hopefully it will attract thousands of players and it will continue as well as the developers earn decent money.

 

However..... it should also be quite enjoyable, challenging and interesting.  

 

This issue with the AI will potentially break the game for new players and casual players. I have been playing for about just over 2 weeks and I had found the missions on level were quite difficult, but doable, so  generally did a mission one rank down, it was still challenging, but consistent.

 

I know people go on about grinding etc, but people will just revert to doing the missions that they will be the most efficient at, as they try to earn gold and XP. 

 

Now, with the AI change, I am getting out of some missions 2 Ranks down by the skin of my teeth, with enemy ships sinking just before me. This is ridiculous. If I am, say Master and Commander, it should be possible to do Master and Commander missions. As it is, now way would I attempt one with this present AI.

 

I know that there are and always will be very skilled game players, who love this difficulty, but the greater majority of us are not so skilled or dedicated. So IMHO, either RENAME  the missions or sort out  the AI.

 

For a developing game, this is pure economics, if they want to attract real world money from players, then the game should be at least playable and enjoyable. If it is too hard or the missions take too much effort to complete, then they will go away, find a different game and not recommend this game to their friends

 

Now do't get me wrong, I do enjoy the game, and I play the level that I am comfortable with, but it grates on me knowing that I have to play lower level missions because the AI is just too damned accurate and the shots just do too much damage. 

 

I know some here will harp on with "learn to play" or "why should game be changed just for you?" My answer would be "why should the game be so difficult just for you"? The argument cuts both ways.

 

It's all about the perception of the difficulty of the game. If I get out of a mission 2 levels below my rank by the skin of my teeth and I am absolutely not going to be able to complete a mission at my rank, then my perception is that this game is too difficult

 

If I get out of a mission at my rank level just by the skin of my teeth then I get a feeling of achievement and satisfaction that I had completed a difficult mission. Then my perception of the game is better and more rewarding. THiIS is what, IMHO, the Devs should be aiming for.

 

Now with the new mission selection screen, I believe that I can potentially accept missions higher then my rank level, so If I was really good, I could go for those missions.

 

In the end, it really does not matter what level name the mission is called, a player will naturally choose the difficulty level that suits him/her. They will get the satisfaction and reward commensurate with their ability.

 

The level name of the mission will give the player the perception of what to expect and what is achievable. At the moment, with the AI being too accurate and too damaging the perception of difficulty and thus the enjoyment is broken.

Edited by Michael CorvinusSnr
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I think it's safe to say the AI difficulty needs to be tweaked down a bit. I am more threatened by an AI ship of my own rate than a player in a one on one scenario and that is something that should never happen. I have noticed considerable and legitimate complaints by even newer players who cannot even complete Midshipman (1st Rank) missions in their Basic Cutter because the AI is dominating them as they're fairly new. What are new players supposed to do?

 

Please fix soon, thanks.

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I think it's safe to say the AI difficulty needs to be tweaked down a bit. I am more threatened by an AI ship of my own rate than a player in a one on one scenario and that is something that should never happen. I have noticed considerable and legitimate complaints by even newer players who cannot even complete Midshipman (1st Rank) missions in their Basic Cutter because the AI is dominating them as they're fairly new. What are new players supposed to do?

 

Please fix soon, thanks.

 

For the low level mission, I think that it's mandatory to downgrade the difficult or this game will fail in getting new players.

 

For mid to high level missions, the equation of the PVE contents shall take in consideration four things "difficult"vs"fun"vs"risk"vs"reward".

 

Devs should keep in mind that in MMORPGs exsist basically two kind of players (hardcore and carebear) that have a different concept of fun in games. A good MMORPG game is a game that is able give to both these categories contents that are considered by them rewarding and funny according to THEIR concept of reward and fun, so they will go on playing. In other words, a good game splits the contents in order to satisfy two kind of customers.

 

Besides the fact that PVE is traditionally on the carebear side and the "pro" players prefer PVP (and so I am amazed about all these PVPers that, instead of challenge each other, like so much being "challenged" by IA bots), the problem is the following:

 

Now - entering in a mission of your level - you face:

- very high difficult

- high fun for PROs and no fun for carebears

- very high risk of wasting 30 mins of game (travel, combat and flee) or to sink

- very ordinary rewards.

 

If you want to tune down the notch of difficult to "average" you shall do missions of two level less, but there you find

- average difficult

- no fun for PROs and acceptable fun for carebears

- low risk of failing

- very low rewards.

 

Some said that a trick could be enhancing drops for missions "on par", and I think it could help: let's say that if you beat a mission of your level you are 100% granted with a random (yellow) exceptional upgrade, if you beat a mission of one level lower you are granted 1000% with a random fine (blue) upgrade, while starting from two missions lower you just get XP and gold and a low chance to drop a basic or normal upgrade. It could help

 

But let's just use a bit of psychology: shift the scale of difficulty of two notches down, so that "your level missions" of tomorrow will be "-2 level mission" of today and then let's say that if you beat a mission of 2 ranks higher you are 100% granted also with a random (yellow) exceptional upgrade, if you beat a mission of 1 rank higher lower you are granted 100% also with a random fine (blue) upgrade, while doing "on par" mission you just get XP and gold and a low chance to drop a basic or normal upgrade. I'm pretty sure that by simply doing this trick (and maybe tweaking up a little bit the XP and gold granted by missions) the whine will be greatly reduced (without changing the IA).

Edited by victor
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I find attacking these massive super fleets of Santis/Vics very risky and very rewarding at the moment for those looking for a major AI challenge. I believe that is where difficulty spikes should be focused on is content that require groups, rather than those trying to level in what's intended to be a solo environment that is ultimately a stepping stone to player vs. player.

 

I'm not trashing the idea of a difficulty setting system for each mission as it's completely viable, but I don't think that's something entirely necessary to focus on at this stage in development.

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Good points and suggestions by Victor.

 

Another problem for me (is it a BUG?), since the patch, is the difficulty in getting that RED LINE to come down to sea level so that I can line up my target.

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But some players have voiced their frustration about losing PvE combats.

 

 

I assume the frustration does not come from being beaten (at least it does not for me), but from recognising that the AI is using a blend of exceptional modules that seem to exceed player's limits mixed with infallable accuracy on higher ranks. 

 

Now add brutal penetration values of 6+9 pds that will slice through big ship's hulls like a knife through butter and you've nailed the problem.

 

Of course this can be circumvented with tactics, training, adaption and exploiting the AIs weaknesses. But that's not the point. Having to beat a gamey trans-human ship with terminator accuracy just spoils the genuine experience. Even "Rear Admirals" or elite crews missed a shot once in a while...

 

We really need to be more watchful for the subtle differences here. Not everyone who's asking for changes is asking to gimp the AI again. Small changes and adaptions would definitely do the job.

Edited by Mr. Starbuck
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The AI is too good at any range no matter it's rank and this is unrealistic. Specially because in many mission you face two AI ships.

As others pointed out you feel more threatened by AI than other players.

I think specially lower level should be tweaked down.

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I'm rank 6 and i'm only farming GROS VENTRE traders ships, no choice :)

 

Because if i do missions, i'll lose more than i'll earn, and in a stupid grind game, no choice :~

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I assume the frustration does not come from being beaten (at least it does not for me), but from recognising that the AI is using a blend of exceptional modules that seem to exceed player's limits mixed with infallable accuracy on higher ranks. 

 

Now add brutal penetration values of 6+9 pds that will slice through big ship's hulls like a knife through butter and you've nailed the problem.

 

Of course this can be circumvented with tactics, training, adaption and exploiting the AIs weaknesses. But that's not the point. Having to beat a gamey trans-human ship with terminator accuracy just spoils the genuine experience. Even "Rear Admirals" or elite crews missed a shot once in a while...

 

We really need to be more watchful for the subtle differences here. Not everyone who's asking for changes is asking to gimp the AI again. Small changes and adaptions would definitely do the job.

I guess there are different kind PvEers and different kinds of reaction to the current AI :

Some may want a simple AI :

- to relax while playing an Age of Sail game,

- for grinding to be able to sail 1st-Rates ASAP,

- or to learn the basics. 

Some like the current challenge.

Some like challenge but want adjustments to the current AI (like you I guess)

Some just play and won't post.

Some may exclusively play PvP and don't care.

 

I like the current AI.

But I can understand those who want adjustments.

I proposed simpler missions for beginners / grinders / casual gamers / relaxing ppl : http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/13233-ai-shootingdamageleaks-feedback-moderated/?p=243514

 

However, it's hard to please everybody. Dev team is small...

 

I'm rank 6 and i'm only farming GROS VENTRE traders ships, no choice :)

 

Because if i do missions, i'll lose more than i'll earn, and in a stupid grind game, no choice :~

 

So what about doing rank 5 missions ?

I'm rank 6 like you and have just done the test of rank 5 rewards vs one Niagara :

Gold : 5000 (mission) + 9912 (battle) - 1394 (repair) = 13 518 gold

XP : 118 (mission) + 191 (battle) = 309 XP

It seems game reward system is already generous. Just my opinion. 

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If I would buy a planes game where it would take off automatically  I'd simply refund it. I like the learning curve of simulations with the added "unknown" factors aka. What did I do wrong to be shot on that turn ? What could've I done better not to crash on landing ?...

 

 

I do not see NA any different from that, maybe that's why the NA community is built of so many different gaming backgrounds :) It has something for everyone while keeping the strong and challenging ACTION core intact through the versions.

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Remember to only post highly specific feedback on the narrow range of subjects specified by admin, guys.

 

Generalized complaints or compliments are not needed in this thread, and posts keep going away.

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  1. Leaks - I like the new leak system. It highlights weapon and ship differences and rewards marksmanship.

Pen/damage - I'm still getting a feel for this. I need to drop down to privateer and try attacking larger ships a bit, and also do some smaller battles to get a better sense of where it stands. My initial feedback is that I think it's good.

AI - Missions need some work. Sometimes the missions are a cake walk, and other times I'm fighting for my life. I always assume they have good marksmanship and in a lot of cases they aim better than people. I think the answer to this may be having more ship variety (ie: compose fleets similar to what you may see in transit, and always include smaller ships even in the higher missions) and incorporate a dispersion amount that varies depending on conditions. I know personally my aim suffers as I become task saturated, maybe have the AI do the same.

NPC Ship Capture - I'm not sure about this. I do like capturing ships in order to make money (more so than trading) but usually I just sell the vessel when I return to port.

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1. Leaks - great idea but needs a lot of fine-tuning.  For example, I don't have impression that "hole sizes now depend on actual ball size".  They are all evenly dangerous.

 

2. Penetration and damage -  live oak log is no different then fir right now, pretty much any caliber penetrates everything just fine.  Shouldn't be like that.  It used to be better balanced before the patch.

 

3. AI - ok for me, but has to be ok for new players too.  Difficulty level that you can choose sounds like a good idea.

 

4.  NPC ship capture - "many crafters are happy now" - I'm lvl 50 crafter and I'm not happy at all.  My back-orders for SOLs are week long or even longer (friends only, I don't have hours for anybody else and anything else besides the SOLs).  It's just sad that so many people have to wait and wait.  As a result they lose interest and quit the game.   And don't tell "those people need to lvl up their craft and make ships too" - it's just boring, not many people want to do/have time for that.  I often see proposals like "take away teleport, we want to gank real traders".  Well, my dear gankers, why don't you try being that trader yourself?  "No, 'cause it's boring", right? :)  Imagine, it's like that for everybody.   I know NPC ship capture used to be a fun thing to do for many players.  So why take it away?  Make them expensive to repair after capturing instead or something like that. 

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1. Leaks - great idea but needs a lot of fine-tuning.  For example, I don't have impression that "hole sizes now depend on actual ball size".  They are all evenly dangerous.

 

2. Penetration and damage -  live oak log is no different then fir right now, pretty much any caliber penetrates everything just fine.  Shouldn't be like that.  It used to be better balanced before the patch.

 

 

leaks seem indeed to be influenced by the size of the balls hitting/collision. A 9pd required my Pavel only a small crew of about ~15 men to clsoe the leak, a 32 pd from a bellona a lot more (forgot the exact fiure, srry). Stuffing the leak after a collision on my Bellona required 160 (!) men for 1 leak.

 

did wood types ever influence penetration values?  Just curious...I wish they'd do, though.

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leaks seem indeed to be influenced by the size of the balls hitting/collision. A 9pd required my Pavel only a small crew of about ~15 men to clsoe the leak, a 32 pd from a bellona a lot more (forgot the exact fiure, srry). Stuffing the leak after a collision on my Bellona required 160 (!) men for 1 leak.

 

did wood types ever influence penetration values?  Just curious...I wish they'd do, though.

 

From what I understand of the "hidden" mechanics, the armor value (which the player cannot see) gives a higher chance of bounce or nonpenetration depending on the angle and range. Different ships have different base armor values, and both teak and live oak wood types increase this armor value. I was also under the impression that the planking trim increases armor value as well.

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1. Leaks - great idea but needs a lot of fine-tuning.  For example, I don't have impression that "hole sizes now depend on actual ball size".  They are all evenly dangerous.

 

2. Penetration and damage -  live oak log is no different then fir right now, pretty much any caliber penetrates everything just fine.  Shouldn't be like that.  It used to be better balanced before the patch./

This is my perception as well. Live oak armour simply melting away with 6 pdr causing as much damage to me a my 9 pdr to them.

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