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AI shooting/Damage/Leaks Feedback - moderated

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I am so over the responses that just paint everyone who has issues as incompetent. I am getting angrier and angrier at the "just get better" brigade. We may be less competent than you but many of us have been around for at least a little while and when we say ( and there are many of us) that AI behaviour is inhuman in aiming and striking it is because we have seen it be so. It's not a figment of our imagination and it's insulting to have our own observations continually dismissed as incompetence.

I can tell you that I'm simply not doing missions anymore. It's not worth the grief. How's that for immersion. I'm hanging in there doing other things waiting for some kind of balance to emerge but my patience is not limitless. Every time I hear ' you should just get better' I feel like just pulling the plug totally. Which is a shame because otherwise this is a beautiful game.

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Use duel system to learn. That's what most did back in day. The game is complex but totally worth to learn from the groung up again and again.

 

Beauty of NA ? Still learning at every battle, at every turn, at every shot.

 

That's what makes a great sim game.

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I love it that we  now can snipe leaks, thanks for that admin :)

 

I got 44 leaks on an enemy Trico from my own Trico.  He didnt sink from em, sadly.  Still had to strip armor :(

 

Granted it wasnt at once, but I sure as hell did give em 12 in a volley.  They're nice to have, but versus huge ships not as fatal.

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4. NPC ship capture. 

ship capture we are not sure, but we know that many crafters are happy now, despite the fact that all ships up to constitution are now available in NPC stores.

 

So how about comendations, like  if you cap a certain ship for 15 times you get the option to redeem that ship for the admiralty, if you cap the same kind of ship 25 times you get a second dura and +1 quality and so on, until you can get a full dura exeptional ship. Sure, blocking captured ships made cafters more meaningfull, but i think if we work on this idea we could achieve a good balance between a need to buy a new ship and the joy of been rewarded for capturing a lot of enemys ships!

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AI ability is currently greatly above what a human can do. Admin can say what he want, this is what we experience in game. Their damage output is way superior to ours, i had a navy brig out damage a renommée while fighting side by side, despite having less and smaller guns. And i have more than 1200 hours on the game, i don't miss often.

 

The experience for newer players must be extremely painful, at best.

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AI ability is currently greatly above what a human can do. Admin can say what he want, this is what we experience in game. Their damage output is way superior to ours, i had a navy brig out damage a renommée while fighting side by side, despite having less and smaller guns. And i have more than 1200 hours on the game, i don't miss often.

 

The experience for newer players must be extremely painful, at best.

Then explain to me how this happened:

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/271715193879261239/01A7F180F0C7A34B28B85842823BBA2FD3F6076A/

 

We have the same guns, and I didn't do any fancy maneuvers. Just sailed along at battle sails, side by side. Equal trading of broadsides, same reload rate. I managed to land most of my shots. Was slowly beating a privateer, too, before I got unlucky with a perfect broadside below the waterline.

 

You've all been lulled into complacency is what I say, until I see something pretty damn convincing.

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the only thing i want to complain about is actually the ability to capture your own vessels. even from npcs. couldnt care less about the shipwrighters and crafters. other than that i have nothing to complain about in this new update. a little competitive multi market isnt bad for buisness, but guess the shipwrighters and crafters. have been bitching aloot about it since you put this "quaranteen" in effect. whats even the point of beeing a pirate if you cant take your own ships. i meen, to do pvp as most of you want people to do. you need people to have ships. but. offcourse you needed to fuck up the whole conecept of beeing a pirate gg. im not comming back to this shitty piece of game unless you give me back the potential of capturing my own vessels talking about man of wars. i bet if you did somthing this radical to the whole concept of trade you would have a shortage in your playerbase rather fast. lol lol lol lol

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I know that; the Privateer was a different fight.

 

Lynx has marginally more armor than the basic cutter. But the fact remains that I destroyed the ENTIRETY of one broadside, while suffering less than 10% myself. Then I took down the other broadside.

 

We fired at the same rate, with the same guns, at a 1:1 ratio. Where is the AI's superior accuracy and damage?

What was the npc rank? i noticed that really high ranked npcs seem to have this, Also try higher level ships, show us the side of your ship and compare to his. Also i have never had a Lynx in a Midshipman mission as a Brit....

Edited by ironhammer500

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I think the battle mechanics as of now are just great! Huge improvement! Now you can actually use different guns for different purposes. Btw vs small guns, keeping a nice med-long range + split S-es is a good counter. The only thing you should not do, is exchange broads.

 

I just think .. a small red zone on bow leaks should be welcomed. As of now, the bow of ships is way too strong. It forces you to go for masts or wait. Any other option just wont do.

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1 Leaks

 

How is it now

  • There is skill now in creating them. Shoot at the right moment and you might severely cripple the enemy ship.

 

 

Story checks out

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AI ability is currently greatly above what a human can do. Admin can say what he want, this is what we experience in game. Their damage output is way superior to ours, i had a navy brig out damage a renommée while fighting side by side, despite having less and smaller guns. And i have more than 1200 hours on the game, i don't miss often.

 

The experience for newer players must be extremely painful, at best.

 

Current mission may have become too complicated for newcomers, not because AI "is currently greatly above what a human can do", but because it's become challenging. As long as AI was dumb and had firing bugs, anybody could beat it. Now it requires skills, new ones for a newcomer, too many at the same time for a newcomer.

 

Thus, what newcomers need is not a dumber AI, but missions appropriate to their level that make them train and learn separately how to aim and how to sail in combat, that is missions against :

- unarmed traders sailing in a straight line (to develop basic aiming skill at different ranges and with different guns),

- AI warships sailing in a straight line as in Sea Trials (to develop aiming skill in the context of a naval combat while enduring damage),

- AI warships sailing with current AI but with disabled firing (to develop aiming and sailing skills against an highly-moving but harmless target),

 

Then when they get better and better, they'll need a more challenging AI to keep on having fun.

 

As a veteran tester, I had the easy way : first (during Sea Trails), AI warships sailed in a straight line so newcomers were able to focus on aiming. Then Open World showed up. You could still engage trader ships fleeing in strait lines. But AI warships have begun to learn how to move in battle instances and players could then improve their sailing skills after having learnt how to aim.

I'd like to have current newcomers have the opportunity of a similar slow learning curve, even though some won't need it.

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I'm not sure I concur with the premise that we have to win every battle.  Loss and failure are as much part of the learning process and march forward as gain and success, and should be for every level player in order to maintain the challenge of the game.  That said, I agree that AI has improved dramatically overnight and it's a lot tougher for new players.  But IMO I don't think it's overwhelming, just tougher.

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I'm not sure I concur with the premise that we have to win every battle.  Loss and failure are as much part of the learning process and march forward as gain and success, and should be for every level player in order to maintain the challenge of the game.  That said, I agree that AI has improved dramatically overnight and it's a lot tougher for new players.  But IMO I don't think it's overwhelming, just tougher.

 

Absolutely agree with you.

 

But some players have voiced their frustration about losing PvE combats.

Some others said they wanted a simple AI they'd easily defeat each time because they just want to relax while playing an Age of Sail game.

Others like you like challenge.

 

My idea is to give tutorials for those who want to learn how to defeat a challenging AI but would be frustrated without help.

And those tutorials (or missions) could also be used for those who only wish to relax.

 

PS : help could also be found in duel rooms.

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...and I like your ideas suggested above, although I forgot to comment on that.  Being able to choose your level of difficulty (similar to about 90% of games in the universe) would be a nice feature for newcomers.  I guess it would be similar to or an extension of the choice you have for Admiralty missions.

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Re 1 (leaks), 2 (pen/dmg), and 3 (AI performance):

 

I think you've introduced too many variables at once into combat.  And now, with some frustration apparent in feedback, it may difficult to discern which (or all) of these variables most need adjustment, and by how much.   With other elements of combat also having changed, how can you confidently identify & quantify the effect of a specific change?

 

Each of these initiatives, on its own merits, sounds attractive and worth doing.  But taken together, it seems a bit much, both for you as devs and us as players.  Personally, I think you ought to pick one of them to retain...and roll back the other two to what was in place pre-patch.   When you and we are satisfied with tweaks & balance, then introduce the next. 

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Feedback about leaks

I fought an AI Mercury in a Niagara in Rank 4 mission.

 

First enemy broadside caused 4 red leaks in my hull.

And a brief moment of "panic" at the very start of the battle : crew on survival and repair modes (hull repair kit consumed) + water in hull up to the third + some damage.

 

Then everything settled. And Niagara showed its superiority.

 

Leaks add more spice to battles with a kind of special and dangerous event. That's really great !! Age of Sail feel.

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The more i test current new AI, the more I think the problem of "opness" lies in conjunction of two variables added - improved accuracy and penetration change, especially to 6 and 9 pd cannons. Those cannons have superior rate of fire and as they are usually penetrating now consistently at small ranges, superior dps. If you add to that improved AI accuracy and remaining bonuses from equipment result might be quite devastating. Especially when player is in bigger ship, with lower dps due to slower reloading guns, and has a problem to even hit smaller AI ship with a full broadside. Best solution imho would be to lower ai accuracy a bit (making it more "human"), of course nowwhere near pre patch values, and to look into either penetration of small guns or damage output of big cannons.

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Feedback about leaks

I fought an AI Mercury in a Niagara in Rank 4 mission.

 

First enemy broadside caused 4 red leaks in my hull.

And a brief moment of "panic" at the very start of the battle : crew on survival and repair modes (hull repair kit consumed) + water in hull up to the third + some damage.

 

Then everything settled. And Niagara showed its superiority.

 

Leaks add more spice to battles with a kind of special and dangerous event. That's really great !! Age of Sail feel.

 

So a Mercury which is smaller, less guns almost outright sunk you in a Niagara due to the insane accuracy? I have done the same i have put x4 leak into a ship did it sink? Nope...Seems players have some sort of debuff when it comes to leaks because they seem to last for a very long time, while the AI is using the old system of instantly repairing it.

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The more i test current new AI, the more I think the problem of "opness" lies in conjunction of two variables added - improved accuracy and penetration change, especially to 6 and 9 pd cannons. Those cannons have superior rate of fire and as they are usually penetrating now consistently at small ranges, superior dps. If you add to that improved AI accuracy and remaining bonuses from equipment result might be quite devastating. Especially when player is in bigger ship, with lower dps due to slower reloading guns, and has a problem to even hit smaller AI ship with a full broadside. Best solution imho would be to lower ai accuracy a bit (making it more "human"), of course nowwhere near pre patch values, and to look into either penetration of small guns or damage output of big cannons.

 

Why fighting smaller ships ?

They are more manoeuvrable and smaller target than you (hard to aim). Of course, when at close range, your broadside is devastating on a small ship. But as you stated, part of it may/will miss its target. It's often easier to fight against one ship of your size than two smaller ships. One may rake you while you focus on the other. Moreover, the addition of their guns may overcome your broadside.

As long as you can't deal with  two small preys, try to flee and focus on lonely ship of your size.

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Why fighting smaller ships ?

They are more manoeuvrable and smaller target than you (hard to aim). Of course, when at close range, your broadside is devastating on a small ship. But as you stated, part of it may/will miss its target. It's often easier to fight against one ship of your size than two smaller ships. One may rake you while you focus on the other. Moreover, the addition of their guns may overcome your broadside.

As long as you can't deal with  two small preys, try to flee and focus on lonely ship of your size.

You ever tried to take on a Connie in a another Connie? Or a 3rd rate depends on your rng luck and the missions...before the patch to pen i could angle my connie and the 3rd rate would bounce 75% of his shots, now hardly any bounce...whats the point in learning to angle ur hull..

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So a Mercury which is smaller, less guns almost outright sunk you in a Niagara due to the insane accuracy? I have done the same i have put x4 leak into a ship did it sink? Nope...Seems players have some sort of debuff when it comes to leaks because they seem to last for a very long time, while the AI is using the old system of instantly repairing it.

I never wrote the Mercury "almost outright sunk" me but that her broadside at close range forced my crew to go on repair and survival mode for say 30 seconds, making me less efficient for a short time and made some damage. And that was great. I never feared to sink. Mercury's broadside isn't that powerful.

 

Edit:

 

Removed response to hidden content - Moderator team 

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Last night I was able to take down a St. Pavel with my Constitution. It was very challenging and I'm enjoying missions more and more. As mentioned many times, I would like to see it easier at lower levels. I saw multiple times in chat yesterday new players asking how it was possible to win. It was nice to see 3 of them group together for missions...until all 3 got wrecked by an AI privateer.

I tried the fleet missions for the first time last night and really enjoyed them. Thumbs up.

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I never wrote the Mercury "almost outright sunk" me but that her broadside at close range forced my crew to go on repair and survival mode for say 30 seconds, making me less efficient for a short time and made some damage. And that was great. I never feared to sink. Mercury's broadside isn't that powerful.

 

 

 

But you were forced into full repair / urgent repairs and survival instantly after the first couple of seconds which then you said the water got up to around a third full...after just a few seconds, if  you was a new player not understanding what the crew management did you would of sunk with in seconds.

Edited by ironhammer500

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But you were forced into full repair / urgent repairs and survival instantly after the first couple of seconds which then you said the water got up to around a third full...after just a few seconds, if  you was a new player not understanding what the crew management did you would of sunk with in seconds.

 

NA is indeed a skilled-based game. There are a few things to learn. And you have to lose before winning.

Crew management has to be learnt. You're right.

Btw, survival mode is ON by default (if I ain't mistaken).

 

I'm all for easy missions and tutorials for beginners : http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/13233-ai-shootingdamageleaks-feedback-moderated/?p=243514

 

Keep on playing. Have fun  :).

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It's not fun. Is anyone listening. I am not playing PVE while it's this silly. If my reply seems aggressive I apologise but it reflects my mood. Experienced players telling us over and over again to just get better because they don't have a problem. This is just so demeaning and dismissive of our experiences with the AI. I am over it to the point of walking out. I am only here because there are other things to do.

I don't dare do a level above the Mercury that I did kill but only because it sank before I did. And it was hardly what I describe as fun. What do I have to do.....build a constitution? And it kills off all the other possible PVE options as well. Who would take a fleet order to meet up with a whole squadron of overhyped AI's. I might as well sink myself first.

Edited by SeaMist
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