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Just a Suggestion:

Maybe if its possible add 2 Modes for a Mission. The Normal mode with normal AI and normal Gold/XP Reward. For the Average Player and new Players.  And a Hard mode with Challenging AI and a bigger Gold/XP Reward. For Good/Elite players that want a challenge combined with a higher Risk/Reward.
Like "Midshipman Mission Normal, Midshipman Mission Hard" etc.
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The leak system and the AI accuracy is a nightmare for new players. I feel it's especially impacting 7th and 6th rate tiers.

 

Look, I know every AI needs a cheat to buff it up, but there is a fine line when the cheats get so obvious that it's not fun anymore. I mean it's annyoing when a player uses wallhacks and aimbots,no? Why would people like that on AIs? It isn't immersive, too anymore, when you experience AI shooting through fog, heavy sea, cannon smoke and hit you consistently.

 

That's not "challenge" - that's unfair advantage. "Challenge" is believable difficulty - this isn't believable any more.

 

It's good that the accuracy is buffed for those situations when you sailed parallel - that was dumb AI shooting the waves - now you need to manouver more cleverly, but for the love of god - give me back the feeling I'm in a sea battle in the past and not in a FPS shooter. I want to see the AI struggle to hit me just as I struggle to hit them.

 

Keep the super high level for the high level players and give new players a chance to settle into the game.

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Leaks

 

I noticed the same thing the AI had 1 side fully down and instantly sunk due to it, where are before id need at least 2 sides down, seems this is a bit silly as all you need to do in order to sink a large vessel is destroy one side...realistically this would not even mean the ship will sink. As it still has most of the structure just the armour was taken down.

 

 

AI 

 

I read the Devs want the AI to be like Dark souls, "Challenging" Well let me tell you Darks souls AI is easy, its Predictable, easy to counter hardly a Challenge the thing is if you mess up you get punished, which i feel should not be in this game as messing up is pretty easy, guns are not easy to aim all  the time due to RNG/waves.

 

Also Dark souls has easy,medium and hard maps like many have suggested instead of going back to the old AI ( which is not what i want) We just have a easier AI in say Easy missions and label it as a training mission for new players to try, then add Medium for players who wanna learn a bit more and Hard for more experienced players then add Challenge mode with a really tough AI for those who want a real Challenge.

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if an ennemy as no armor on one side he will automaticly sunk, the planking is destroy and the pump can't manage all the flooding.

if you have 

 

    100%

0%     90%

    100%

you will sunk, but in 5 mins =)

 

on your screen we can see that you send him 2XX ball in hull ( and no leaks) so i think it's worked as intended

 

I get your general point, but as i already wrote and you mentioned...he as NO leaks, and when he as not a single leak BELOW the waterline, where shall the flooding come from?

If he has like 2XX holes between the weather deck and gun deck, it would not be of interest because the water has no point where it would actually enter the ship. he would have a lot of wind going through though^^

 

that's kinda logically the opposite effect of a bath tube (where as long as the water level doesn't rise too much, it won't flood your bathroom)

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Its understood that if his broadside is reduced to zero the structural integrity of his vessel has failed and something beyond numbered leaks is happening.  Think of it as the frame on your car failing.

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A situation where the ship is taking water with structure/armor brought down to zero on side(s) but with no actual leaks models a situation where the side of the ship is more holes than a hull and the water just can't be kept out no matter how many holes are plugged. It's a bit easier to achieve than it should be historically (especially as you don't even need to shoot below the waterline) but it's a pretty good gameplay compromise for now.

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A situation where the ship is taking water with structure/armor brought down to zero on side(s) but with no actual leaks models a situation where the side of the ship is more holes than a hull and the water just can't be kept out no matter how many holes are plugged. It's a bit easier to achieve than it should be historically (especially as you don't even need to shoot below the waterline) but it's a pretty good gameplay compromise for now.

I think only water line shots should count to Leaks and sinking from water coming on board this forces players to actually aim for certain spots on the ships rather then just pepper one side = win...no skill at all in that, makes pvp boring and really who ever can take down 1 side faster is the winner no real need for aiming.

Edited by ironhammer500

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That's not "challenge" - that's unfair advantage. "Challenge" is believable difficulty - this isn't believable any more.

 

Agree with that.

 

There's lots of people saying "the AI is fine now". People who then explain how they managed to successfuly sink tier 5 ships in a basic cutter. I don't get the point of such post. If you play better than average, good for you.

 

The AI got a serious buff. Like way too serious. Almost lost my Trinc to 2x Cerbs on a one rank lower quest. These things could turn full circle while I would barely manage to make 1/4 of it. They would land 90% of their hits and place 3 full broadside while I'd only manage to place one. They hit harder, reload faster, turn faster while on the other hand the only change I could feel is my messed up firing range. I may not be as good as the "AI IS FINE" guys, but the "challenge" is getting a bit silly here.

 

What about different quests with different difficulty levels per rank?

 

That would give the "AI IS FINE" guys more XP, more gold, and the joy to brag about it some more while the "casual guys" could keep enjoying the game at their level with lower rewards?

 

Finally, a general observation I have on the game as it is today. When you need 15min sail time to get to your mission, 30-45min fight, then 15min to get back to port, you just spent one hour chasing one guy, finishing one mission, and that's it. In fact, you only spent half of that time playing, the other half you were there waiting to get in range to start the fight. Then you look at shops and see prices went up too, which obviously impacts ship selling prices. More grinding for the same amount of limited fun.

 

I was expecting to see real PVE content, not artificial "game" time addition. With such change, I feel like the game is really focusing on a hardcore playerbase, and not giving much to the casual guys. Maybe that's what the devs want, but I wonder how long a game can survive when it's only meant for those who can put 6+ hours per evening in it.

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I think only water line shots should count to Leaks and sinking from water coming on board this forces players to actually aim for certain spots on the ships rather then just pepper one side = win...no skill at all in that, makes pvp boring and really who ever can take down 1 side faster is the winner no real need for aiming.

The main problem is that then shooting the waterline could easily become the only legit place to shoot at especially in PVP (which would be a very unhistorical and monotonous from gameplay point of view) or it could make virtually all fights end in boarding, which in itself could be quite nice if the boarding gameplay was made a bit more interesting and tactical beyond rock-paper-scissors and if losing crew actually mattered to players.

 

edit. I have not observed PVP being only about shooting down the side armor of the opponent. Going for sails, masts and raking shots has always been an important part of PVP fights before going for the hull armor.

Edited by Marcomies

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You guys are terribly off-topic. Maybe move this to a different thread?

It's an open-and-shut case, though.

The planking integrity thing is an unrealistic abstraction meant to make battles end in a timely, responsive manner. Currently necessary for gameplay.

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Just a Suggestion:

Maybe if its possible add 2 Modes for a Mission. The Normal mode with normal AI and normal Gold/XP Reward. For the Average Player and new Players.  And a Hard mode with Challenging AI and a bigger Gold/XP Reward. For Good/Elite players that want a challenge combined with a higher Risk/Reward.
Like "Midshipman Mission Normal, Midshipman Mission Hard" etc.

 

 

As much drama as this has caused I would be alright with this as a middle ground... except changing the normal-hard  instead to easy-normal options with 'easy mode' giving 1/3-1/2 the xp (entire xp not just mission) or alternatively no battle xp/gold just the mission reward

 

Edit further explanation: Nothing else changes, this is a mission only option the real world stays post-patch and the scrubs stay scrubby

Edited by Robbert Dole

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Well i found using 12 lbs guns on my Main deck was actually better then using 24 lbs due to only having 6 damage less but almost double the fire rate.

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I vote for choices (without breaking game balance). Choice is always good and adds variety to game play and should also include the choice in the level of difficulty one would like to face and in the variety of game play modes. There are players of various levels in this game, preferring different types of game play and playing either mostly solo or in groups. All are valid play modes and if the game allows the various game modes and opponents (both player and NPC) to be selected based on what makes the most enjoyable (and possibly challenging) game play to them it would greatly benefit this game and would bring it to a wider audience.

 

In short greater options in NPC fleet difficulty within a range of classes, allow capturing of smaller NPC vessels (up to Frigate) and make the AI behave with equal parameters to a human controlled ship.

 

Seeing ship turn rates, yard turn rates, sail raising speeds, accuracy, reload times from an ai that FAR exceeds what's possible in a player ship with full gold upgrades is just simply disheartening and frustrating in most player's view. Note, these factors have nothing to do with human skill. They're simply over-boosted performance parameters on the ai's part.

 

More challenge is good. More OPTIONS to pick a suitable challenge is even better. Keep up the good work! :)

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Seeing ship turn rates, yard turn rates, sail raising speeds, accuracy, reload times from an ai that FAR exceeds what's possible in a player ship with full gold upgrades is just simply disheartening and frustrating in most player's view. Note, these factors have nothing to do with human skill. They're simply over-boosted performance parameters on the ai's part.

 

 

Seriously, where is your evidence for this beyond 'it's obvious', because in 450 odd hours I still haven't found these magical AI you speak of?

(Agree about the options though ;) )

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Seeing ship turn rates, yard turn rates, sail raising speeds, accuracy, reload times from an ai that FAR exceeds what's possible in a player ship with full gold upgrades is just simply disheartening and frustrating in most player's view. Note, these factors have nothing to do with human skill. They're simply over-boosted performance parameters on the ai's part.

 

No. AI has the same ships as you but uses them better than you AT THE MOMENT.

No AI ship turn rates, yard turn rates, sail raising speeds, accuracy, reload times buff.

Train and you'll win.

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No. AI has the same ships as you but uses them better than you AT THE MOMENT.

No AI ship turn rates, yard turn rates, sail raising speeds, accuracy, reload times buff.

Train and you'll win.

 

Well, I don't have the numbers, you don't have the numbers. So without hard evidence it's all perception, right?  Yet it is interesting to see the volume of complaints considering that according to you there is no issue...

It's not about training. It's about parameters of ship behavior. It's easier to overcome by groups of coordinated human actions but I'd like to see how this works with equal ships ai vs human 1v1 right now. From what I experienced and hearing it's not good...  Don't forget that we still would like more players to join this game. They will be beginners in cutters and such.

 

Another thing I noticed is how ai will react to the human control INPUT and not to what your ship does. Example, as soon as I make a rudder input on a Bellona (and without rudder upgrades) the ai IMMEDIATELY responds with a matching fast turn even before my ship actually started turning! A human would have to see my ship actually turning first then judge and execute the matching response. That human will not know the moment I STARTED turning the rudder. Yet ai does. Of course it's programming. It's actually simpler to do it that way but a very unrealistic representation of a proper opponent.

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Ai actually turns better, reloads faster and shoots more accurately than a human can. This how Ai now Works (...)

Once again, tbh : no.

 

Admin said : http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/13210-hotfix-971/?p=241075

"there are no bonuses to ai - they use the same cannons as you

the glaring bugs in their shooting were fixed

+ they shoot into water less than before

+ they stay closer and shoot less at ricocheting angles "

 

And I can tell you "no" from my experience. 

AI is good at sailing and aiming with the same ship as you, as a robot can be, that is without being able to predict opponent's actions as a (well-trained) human being can.

Bots can only react.

 

I know there are players who would like to see casual players gone, but would that work for devs? To survive this game needs players and most income comes from casuals. Casuals could become hardcore players but they need to Be introduced to the game. Many will stop Playing if the game becomes too hard too fast.

So why not add options for these PVE missions? Give a little something for everyone? Is it really taking something away from hardcore players?

1) My proposal for beginners and casual gamers :

Make AI adjustments to low-end missions (first ranks).

 

2) My additional proposals for newcomers who want to fight a competitive AI : creation of new missions (tutorials) against :

- unarmed traders sailing in a straight line (to develop basic aiming skill at different ranges and with different guns),

- AI warships sailing in a straight line as in Sea Trials (to develop aiming skill in the context of a naval combat while enduring damage),

- AI warships sailing with current AI but with disabled firing (to develop aiming and sailing skills against an highly-moving but harmless target),

as current AI missions as currently designed aren't for newcomers as they require too many skills.

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/13295-newcomers-learning-curve/#entry242911

 

3) My advices for any newcomer :

- First attack unarmed traders in the Open world to learn how to properly aim (without having to bother with sailing)

- Fight against a friend or a tutor in Duel rooms. It is a way to play at one's pace, letting the other firing while sailing in a straight line, testing tactics, learning the basics without the stress of a "real" battle, see how cutters work (turn rate...), how to aim (...), have fun and fight against other players at no risk.

 

4) A challenging AI is needed for Open World bots and medium-to-high-end missions,

with OW bots able to attack PvE players in OW and :

(...) the following things to the AI (...) :

  • teach them to chase and demast
  • teach them to board 
  • teach them to operate in groups and focus fire
  • create several roles and patterns for bots (like bots that can parry you or backstab you in Dark souls)

As you can see, I do not intend to oppose casual gamers and harcore gamers and I am for a global solution for all.  :)

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Ever compared the holes on your ship compared to the holes on their ship? They seem to be able to make a nice neat line along your ship, mostly from centre to rear of the ship to, while mine seem to spread a bit hitting all over the entire  side.

 

 

So how does the AI have good grouping? Gold Pellew sight? Which remind me not every player will have since u need a craft lv of 40+ For gold upgrades. Im all for improvements to the AI but when they clearly have Gold upgrades on their ships ( Please do not deny it even the crew with Gold crew space + Gold Hammocks doesnt quite meet their numbers)

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Admin said : http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/13210-hotfix-971/?p=241075

"there are no bonuses to ai - they use the same cannons as you

the glaring bugs in their shooting were fixed

+ they shoot into water less than before

+ they stay closer and shoot less at ricocheting angles "

That only concerns the actual cannons and penetration. It can be clearly seen that the AI had 10% more crew on its ships than the base crew of the ship and that was when exceptional extra hammocks gave only 5% more crew and the AI always has marines. This was/is true even when the AI was in a ship that had no exceptional crew space trim or slots for both the marine and hammock upgrades, ergo the AI is "cheating", there's no question about that, only of the extent of it.

 

The superior accuracy is not part of this subject, it is a result of lack of added inaccuracy in the aiming algorithms now that some of the systematic errors in AI aim were fixed. It is easier to make on AI that hits with perfect accuracy than it is to make an AI that misses randomly, not to mention in human like manner.

 

I have not seen empirical evidence  of the other inhuman properties of the AI ships but since they do have extra crew and marines on ships that should not be able to use them, I see no reason why the AI couldn't also be using other "upgrades" or trim bonuses. For example if the AI had also bonuses from exceptional improved magazine access, optimized rudder, powder monkeys, rum rations and lightweight ropes it would have 15% faster reload, 35% faster yard turn speed and 30% shorter rudder half time.

 

It would be great if the devs could just tell what upgrades/bonuses the AI ships have so we could stop having this conversation over and over again. 

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That only concerns the actual cannons and penetration. It can be clearly seen that the AI had 10% more crew on its ships than the base crew of the ship and that was when exceptional extra hammocks gave only 5% more crew and the AI always has marines. This was/is true even when the AI was in a ship that had no exceptional crew space trim or slots for both the marine and hammock upgrades, ergo the AI is "cheating", there's no question about that, only of the extent of it.

 

The superior accuracy is not part of this subject, it is a result of lack of added inaccuracy in the aiming algorithms now that some of the systematic errors in AI aim were fixed. It is easier to make on AI that hits with perfect accuracy than it is to make an AI that misses randomly, not to mention in human like manner.

 

I have not seen empirical evidence  of the other inhuman properties of the AI ships but since they do have extra crew and marines on ships that should not be able to use them, I see no reason why the AI couldn't also be using other "upgrades" or trim bonuses. For example if the AI had also bonuses from exceptional improved magazine access, optimized rudder, powder monkeys, rum rations and lightweight ropes it would have 15% faster reload, 35% faster yard turn speed and 30% shorter rudder half time.

 

It would be great if the devs could just tell what upgrades/bonuses the AI ships have so we could stop having this conversation over and over again. 

 

This. While I am sure that the AI does not have inherent buffs (which is want the devs are apparently saying) they DO have upgrades. I have faced numerous AI ships in my cerberus (195 crew) with 215 crew and who clearly had several boarding party upgrades. 

 

The rumors I hear is that AI has all exceptional upgrades, which in my opinion makes this very unfair. 1) It's not worth it to find great upgrades until you are higher ranked, so early players suffer here and 2) AI having exceptional upgrades would explain faster reload times, better turning speeds, etc. 

 

The devs weren't wrong when they said there was no AI "buffs", but they didn't talk at all about which upgrades (and what class of upgrades) AI ships had. I don't believe AI has random upgrades either as I've encountered overcrewed AI ships almost every time.

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Basic Cutter.

 

One broadside.

 

4 red leaks.

 

Entire crew on Survival.

 

Sank in under a minute.

 

Seriously?

 

 

(Before that happened, I was on my way to beating an AI privateer. The AI rarely landed more than half a broadside, and once missed with all 6 shots. Our broadsides did comparable damage when well-aimed. My contempt for the accusations of cheating AI now grows.)

 

 

Edit: I am not a particularly good player. All I did was sail circles in Battles sails and shoot my medium guns carefully:

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/271715193879261239/01A7F180F0C7A34B28B85842823BBA2FD3F6076A/

Devs, please keep this in mind when people complain about the AI being too hard. I was shocked how little it changed, given the uproar on the forums.

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Basic Cutter.

 

One broadside.

 

4 red leaks.

 

Entire crew on Survival.

 

Sank in under a minute.

 

Seriously?

 

 

(Before that happened, I was on my way to beating an AI privateer. The AI rarely landed more than half a broadside, and once missed with all 6 shots. Our broadsides did comparable damage when well-aimed. My contempt for the accusations of cheating AI now grows.)

 

the AI doesn't cheat at such, it just has its aim Auto programmed into it, like it aims center mass of the ship, where players need to guess the range and work out aim, the AI doesn't as it all ready locked on to where it needs to aim, the bit where the AI "Cheats" is probably a bug imo but i noticed that the AI can shoot its rounds at strange angles like 80 degree angles from firing dead straight broadside, in other words its broadside was firing an odd shot at a strange angle...also noticed a render bug with guns shots from npcs.

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I think that an individual AI shouldn't be too powerful, and should be relatively easy for a human in an equal ship to kill, and the way you get challenges by fighting bigger groups. and earn a bigger reward for it.

 

You already have a rank system in place so another way to increase AI difficulty could be using the AI's rank to determine its ability, then giving a mission a difficulty rating taking this into account, so you can choose the type of mission you want to fight.

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I think that an individual AI shouldn't be too powerful, and should be relatively easy for a human in an equal ship to kill using equal opportunities of wind, manual sailing and timely shooting, and the way you get challenges by fighting bigger groups. and earn a bigger reward for it.
 

 

 

Added a very important factor to your phrase.

 

If I'm not mistaken the Fleet challenges yield massive income ?

 

I agree with the Rank difficulty but before that is to be done remake the Ranks by achievements instead of mindless grind. It would make all sense then.

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