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No off topic please

 

Some comments on the four changes.

Important point related to first two points. We are cleaning up code and eliminating random factors and % probabilities from things that dont need them.

 

1 Leaks

Ramming leaks - fixed

Penetrating leaks. We fixed multiple bugs and problems with leaks in the 9.7 but of course fixing bugs sometimes changes things.

What was fixed/changed

 

Theory

When shot penetrates the hull holes are created (white leak)

If the hole gets under water it starts leaking (red leak)

 

How it was before

  • Previous system used a standard leak danger zone as a % of hull as a vulnerable spot. But this was causing the problem. Heavier ships were getting a lot more leaks (you probably noticed it around Constitution). Cutters almost never had holes, heavy ships had lots of holes, It was because while % is the same - the zone is actually large on large ships allowing a lot of holes. (Big design problem). Because leaks could be generated elsewhere they were on the % chance (you were probably puzzled why shooting victory with 50 guns did not generate at least 40 holes - its because of probabilities.
  • All leaks were repaired 1 by 1 (not in parallel).  It was causing problems with new crew management because non - danger leaks were taking people away for no reason. .
  • Creating leaks did not need skill.

How is it now

  • In the new system we just track the waterline (dynamically) because what interests us is potentially dangerous leaks (not all holes), taking into account the zone that can get into water. If ships start sinking it goes up automatically. 
  • Now there is no probability in leaks. Holes generate with EVERY penetration in the danger zone.
  • There is skill now in creating them. Shoot at the right moment and you might severely cripple the enemy ship. 
  • Hole sizes now depend on actual ball size (not on the weight). And require different number of people to fix. 
  • The time to fix a leak is standard across all of them (the difference is already counted in the number of people required to repair them)

 

New leaks provide new dimension to gameplay and its a great thing. They might require tuning, but in general we want them to be dangerous.

 

 

2 Penetration and damage

Cannon class vs armor class incorporates many parameters. Unfortunately a bug sneaked in some time ago which reduced all penetration curves by 10%

Which means 42lb shooting at a cutter at 10 meters at 90 degree angle still had 10% chance to not penetrate!!!! huge bug. 

We fixed it. Probabilities are bad in skill based games thus we are removing them.

 

Thus you see that the damage seems higher. Its not damage - you penetration is now proper in all cases (not by some random number god). We just need to adjust classes based on data and it will return to normal. (unless we all like the new bigger damage).

 

 

3 AI

Ai is challenging. Clause 2 increased the problem, bots penetrate better than before (just like players).

We fixed their stupidity in shooting (they always overshot to stern before), in their reloading (their reloading got stuck sometimes even if you were in their sector of fire), in their crew management. Also their marines had 1 melee bonus instead of players 1.75

 

We want ai to be challenging - so lets give it some time to test and figure it out (if more changes are needed).

We wanted to add the following things to the AI in the next 2 content patches.

  • teach them to chase and demast
  • teach them to board 
  • teach them to operate in groups and focus fire
  • create several roles and patterns for bots (like bots that can parry you or backstab you in Dark souls)

This would increase the options in generating interesting missions and events

But based on the patch feedback - we are worried that people want that. Seems that people just want bots for relaxing and enjoyment  (not necessarily a bad thing).

 

 

4. NPC ship capture. 

ship capture we are not sure, but we know that many crafters are happy now, despite the fact that all ships up to constitution are now available in NPC stores.

 

 

 

Only comments and feedback to the following 4 points is accepted.

1.5x ROE is for testing and we dont have strong position on it.

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4. NPC ship capture. 

Please let us capture 5th and 6th Rates.

 

Exempt Trincomalees or other in-demand frigates if necessary.

 

It offers a lot of fun for new players (exciting reward) and testers.

 

I'm a crafter, and nobody makes much money crafting small vessels anyhow. Crafters will make many of them for farming blueprints no matter what you do with prize vessels.

 

 

 

 

New leaks provide new dimension to gameplay and its a great thing. They might require tuning, but in general we want them to be dangerous.

Red leaks cause flooding WAY too fast. I'm pretty sure that if you did the math, you would see that one leak is admitting half of Niagara Falls every second.

 

No ship should sink any faster than they would be with 0% planking integrity, IMHO. To balance this, maybe we make leaks slower to repair or only repair partially (diverting men to pumps permanently). Or maybe the flooding should disrupt reload, as the powder monkeys have to keep the magazine dry, assist the carpenters, panic at the sight of rushing water, etc.

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I respect the developer's decision to give the AI the same bonuses as the player, though perhaps it would be prudent to make the solo mission orders easier in difficulty while fleet order missions have the suggested increased AI difficulty? I think that would be a good compromise to those who have malcontent towards the increased difficulty from the AI as of late. After playing against the AI I personally prefer the AI pre-patch, but in concentrated environments I would not mind an AI that can focus fire in groups/demast effectively/etc.

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But based on the patch feedback - we are worried that people want that. Seems that people just want bots for relaxing and enjoyment  (not necessarily a bad thing).

 

maybe in the future you will think of creation of complexity in the missions. What would a player chose: easy, medium, difficult. Thus, you please all pve players.

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Clause 3. 

 

I suggest designating an AI skill level that can be found by hovering over the fleet. That level denotes how good the commander is, and the level of tactics used by the whole fleet, with some discrepancies allowing for better shooting/worse shooting depending on individual ship commander's skills.

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damage seems alot to high it just seems the ai never misses from range is a large part of the problem

and seems small guns 6lb are doing and inordinate amount of damage compared to 9lb and 12lb longs

 

the ingerman is like a machine gun i am going to try my 3rd rate with just 6lb longs and see if i can match the damage of ships 6lbs

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Please let us capture 5th and 6th Rates.

 

Exempt Trincomalees or other in-demand frigates if necessary.

 

It offers a lot of fun for new players (exciting reward) and testers.

 

 

 

Tend to agree - ship capture was switched off to avoid imbalances because we added a huge variety of ships in missions and on OW.

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Thank you very much for fixing the Ramming leak bug. A member in my clan lost a 3rd rate when another clan mate in a surprise did a turn a little too wide and scraped him at ~3-4 knots at the beginning of the match.

 

If I may put in my two cents regarding capturing NPC ships: I am the leader of a small, 18 member clan. We only have two people with a crafting level over 30, only one Level 2 Shipyard, and I have two commodores and a flag captain that came over from PVP2 to PVP1 (the entire clan came from PVP2). Being able to capture 3rd rates from NPCs meant that I could easily and effectively outfit those new members from PVP2 with third rates and Connies permitting us to have effective fleets. Now, due to the ramming bugs, we've lost half those capture third rates, and it'll be much harder for us to outfit ships; player-built SoLs were already ridiculously overpriced pre-patch. Now, with the increase in demand, those SoLs are completely unattainable for us. We just can't muster the funds at this time. This significantly reduces the effective of my clan to be able to defend the United States from pirate incursion and attack Spanish players who are hitting our allies, which is the last thing I want.

 

Perhaps we could find some sort of a middle ground; maybe give players a small capture quota day, where you can only capture x amount of NPC ships per day and then it'll send ships to the admiralty. I understand that we need to throw crafters a bone, but at the same time we also need to keep higher level ships in the realm of affordability for newcomers. With this patch, the grind has effectively switched from grinding the XP and crew to man the SoLs, to simply being able to afford and/or craft them.

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I agree with Maturin. Lets us capture 5th and 6th rates (except Trinco). You can buy them in a shop already.

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I think the main problem is that the ai got tons better, coupled with the new penetration not being set appropriately for a variety of ships. So the game got massively harder over one patch. If the damage based on penetration was better regulated I don't think the changes to the ai would have appeared so negative.

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maybe in the future you will think of creation of complexity in the missions. What would a player chose: easy, medium, difficult. Thus, you please all pve players.

 

This seems like a really good idea, and rewards could scale accordingly.

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Please let us capture 5th and 6th Rates.

 

Exempt Trincomalees or other in-demand frigates if necessary.

 

It offers a lot of fun for new players (exciting reward) and testers.

 

Yep I would agree to this but maybe limit the dice role on the quaility of captured 5th & 6th Rates.

Make it extremely rare to get anything above a Basic ship. 

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1.) Leaks.

 

Since they are more frequent possibly tweak the number of crew required to repair them or time to repair.

 

2.)Penetration and damage

 

In my opinion the armor classes need to be reworked now.  Its great you added skill to shot selection but at the moment most boats just feel to flimsy.  Crew is getting slaughtered and armor melts.  The time to kill feels to quick.

 

3.)AI

 

Admittedly not my area of expertise but i have a few suggestions.

  •  Maybe leave AI silly at lower rank in solo missions and increasingly add the skills you describe as people level.
  •  Leave the majority missions at the current level
  • Have special group missions with all the proposed AI improvements for the hardcore Pvers as a challenge.

4.)Capping AI ships

 

A suggestion i had proposed before but allow NPC capture up to Frigate level ship. Send the rest to admiralty.   Not  a huge deal though.  The problem is solved is far greater then the loss of free pvp boats.

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1. New leak system is good. I hope to see ramming stay very dangerous too. I did not get a lot of chance to play with ramming but I know pre-patch ramming was bumper-ships and rarely dangerous.

 

3. AI accuracy may need toned down a bit. Just a feeling. They feel more accurate than players. Need to play with this some more.

 

4. I'm fine with no capturing NPCs.

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Thank you very much for fixing the Ramming leak bug. A member in my clan lost a 3rd rate when another clan mate in a surprise did a turn a little too wide and scraped him at ~3-4 knots at the beginning of the match.

 

If I may put in my two cents regarding capturing NPC ships: I am the leader of a small, 18 member clan. We only have two people with a crafting level over 30, only one Level 2 Shipyard, and I have two commodores and a flag captain that came over from PVP2 to PVP1 (the entire clan came from PVP2). Being able to capture 3rd rates from NPCs meant that I could easily and effectively outfit those new members from PVP2 with third rates and Connies permitting us to have effective fleets. Now, due to the ramming bugs, we've lost half those capture third rates, and it'll be much harder for us to outfit ships; player-built SoLs were already ridiculously overpriced pre-patch. Now, with the increase in demand, those SoLs are completely unattainable for us. We just can't muster the funds at this time. This significantly reduces the effective of my clan to be able to defend the United States from pirate incursion and attack Spanish players who are hitting our allies, which is the last thing I want.

 

Perhaps we could find some sort of a middle ground; maybe give players a small capture quota day, where you can only capture x amount of NPC ships per day and then it'll send ships to the admiralty. I understand that we need to throw crafters a bone, but at the same time we also need to keep higher level ships in the realm of affordability for newcomers. With this patch, the grind has effectively switched from grinding the XP and crew to man the SoLs, to simply being able to afford and/or craft them.

 

I disagree and prefer the current capture rule against AI. I'd rather players who are behind in crafting be encouraged to go out and harass their foe in their home waters in hopes of snagging some of their superior ships. I understand where you are coming from as a clan leader, but captured 3rds almost completely nullified the use for crafting a 3rd. If players are forced to cap their enemies' ships to use against them, I guarantee you that you will feel much more rewarded for doing so than capping 3rds from hapless AI

 

I strongly suggest the waters between Baracoa and Mortimer Town for some nice ships. Pirates are crazy enough to sail 1st Rates around un-escorted there.

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Thank you very much for fixing the Ramming leak bug. A member in my clan lost a 3rd rate when another clan mate in a surprise did a turn a little too wide and scraped him at ~3-4 knots at the beginning of the match.

 

If I may put in my two cents regarding capturing NPC ships: I am the leader of a small, 18 member clan. We only have two people with a crafting level over 30, only one Level 2 Shipyard, and I have two commodores and a flag captain that came over from PVP2 to PVP1 (the entire clan came from PVP2). Being able to capture 3rd rates from NPCs meant that I could easily and effectively outfit those new members from PVP2 with third rates and Connies permitting us to have effective fleets. Now, due to the ramming bugs, we've lost half those capture third rates, and it'll be much harder for us to outfit ships; player-built SoLs were already ridiculously overpriced pre-patch. Now, with the increase in demand, those SoLs are completely unattainable for us. We just can't muster the funds at this time. This significantly reduces the effective of my clan to be able to defend the United States from pirate incursion and attack Spanish players who are hitting our allies, which is the last thing I want.

 

Perhaps we could find some sort of a middle ground; maybe give players a small capture quota day, where you can only capture x amount of NPC ships per day and then it'll send ships to the admiralty. I understand that we need to throw crafters a bone, but at the same time we also need to keep higher level ships in the realm of affordability for newcomers. With this patch, the grind has effectively switched from grinding the XP and crew to man the SoLs, to simply being able to afford and/or craft them.

 

Removing captured 3rd rates is extremely healthy for the game. There were simply far too many sailing around and they were too easy to obtain. Now that there is an incentive to craft ships give the game some time to catch up. More people will craft ships if there is some real profit to be made. If you can't afford the SOL's yet, pvp in some frigates. 3rd rates should be something to work towards, not something that takes 30 minutes to capture from a npc.

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We want ai to be challenging - so lets give it some time to test and figure it out (if more changes are needed).

We wanted to add the following things to the AI in the next 2 content patches.

  • teach them to chase and demast
  • teach them to board 
  • teach them to operate in groups and focus fire
  • create several roles and patterns for bots (like bots that can parry you or backstab you in Dark souls)

This would increase the options in generating interesting missions and events

But based on the patch feedback - we are worried that people want that. Seems that people just want bots for relaxing and enjoyment  (not necessarily a bad thing).

Dumb bots get boring. Dangerous bots keep us on our feet. I say let them be challenging. It makes fighting them more fun and victory over them all the sweeter. 

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I like this change a lot on all fronts.  Perhaps maybe a lower rate rate per leak?  I do like that to repair needs crew  and isn't some non-essential issue.

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3 AI

Ai is challenging. Clause 2 increased the problem, bots penetrate better than before (just like players).

We fixed their stupidity in shooting (they always overshot to stern before), in their reloading (their reloading got stuck sometimes even if you were in their sector of fire), in their crew management. Also their marines had 1 melee bonus instead of players 1.75

 

We want ai to be challenging - so lets give it some time to test and figure it out (if more changes are needed).

We wanted to add the following things to the AI in the next 2 content patches.

  • teach them to chase and demast
  • teach them to board 
  • teach them to operate in groups and focus fire
  • create several roles and patterns for bots (like bots that can parry you or backstab you in Dark souls)

This would increase the options in generating interesting missions and events

But based on the patch feedback - we are worried that people want that. Seems that people just want bots for relaxing and enjoyment  (not necessarily a bad thing).

TBH the way is set now,, the AI is too powerfull, and dont miss any shot, you need to have in mind that PVE now is way harder then PVP, Players will make mistakes and miss shots, right now the AI is tuned way up, the thing that i see in this game and the devs is that is always too high or always too low, is never in the middle, or starting gradually change things. Yes have good AI is good for the game, but having AI's that are too smart too fast in not the way to go IMO.

Other than that the patch for me is amazing.

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I think some people are great highly skilled players. Others like me less so. I'm still learning and as I'm a bit older my reactions aren't what they used to be. When you create an AI that doesn't shoot into the water, doesn't shoot over and has great focus ( like not having half the broadside missing off the stern) you create a super human because as someone said if you wan't to engage with poor shooting go PVP and you wil get plenty of it. The lesser mortals like myself shoot into the water, shoot over the target and have part of a broadside miss completely because we ARE human. Targeting a ship at moderate distance from a bucking wave and wind driven platform does not ( in a mortal grade human ) make for great accuracy. To the point where I will often just use rapid single shot to make sure that some wave doesn't send all my shot into the crows nest. The AI being computer driven doesn't have this disadvantage so when we say the AI suddenly became inhumanly accurate this is quite literally true.

After the patch I am finding that the level of mission I can complete ( and that is just too ) has dropped a level despite being promoted a level ( thanks).

You changed the experience levels and promoted me to reduce the grind apparently. But by making it so you have to choose lower level missions to survive you reintroduce the grind you were trying to eliminate. Also it makes the recommended rank levels pretty meaningless.

One more little thing....I am finding my live oak armour melting like butter under attack from the AI. Are you sure there isn't some kind of damage bug in play. Or is it just a quite literally just a super human AI.

Thank you for listening.

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4. NPC ship capture. 

ship capture we are not sure, but we know that many crafters are happy now, despite the fact that all ships up to constitution are now available in NPC stores.

 

I would say allow smaller ships to be capture, say up to surprise or so. However, what about making it to where captured NPC ships do not exceed a certain quality (say, Fine). This way, players can still utilize captured NPC ships, however if they want high-grade ships, they must craft/purchase/PvP cap them. 

Also, I think allowing Pirates the ability to capture all ships is necessary to start distinguishing them from the Nations: Changing the 'Capture" and "Surrender" Mechanics.

 

 

2 Penetration and damage

Cannon class vs armor class incorporates many parameters. Unfortunately a bug sneaked in some time ago which reduced all penetration curves by 10%

Which means 42lb shooting at a cutter at 10 meters at 90 degree angle still had 10% chance to not penetrate!!!! huge bug. 

We fixed it. Probabilities are bad in skill based games thus we are removing them.

 

Thus you see that the damage seems higher. Its not damage - you penetration is now proper in all cases (not by some random number god). We just need to adjust classes based on data and it will return to normal. (unless we all like the new bigger damage).

 

When I first started playing, I was under the impression that leaks/penetration did not directly equate to damage. Example: a ship could still be afloat with no armor simply because it didn't accrue any leaks. The idea that Armor simply reduced the rate/chance at which leaks where generated. So a ship should get leaks, bot not always translate to damage to armor. The reducing of armor through battering away at a broadside simply made way for more, worse leaks later.

 

basically you could have a shot from a cannonade that smashed the hull, weakening it, yet not generating a leak, whereas a long-barrel shot would generate a hole, yet not compromise/weaken the surrounding armor. 

 

I am probably way off on this logic, but the basically, leaks should not mean damage, but damage should mean higher chance of leaks, and in the current system, it seams the two are the same (getting high damage and tons of leaks)

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Changes so far for me:

 

1. leaks for cannon penetration is a good change in theory, the extent might be too high. its too easy to sink now

 

2. penetration thing i hadnt noticed but sounds fine

 

3. AI changes are great in theory. the AI used to be too soft and they posed no challenge. their tactics were one dimensional and predictable. its great that they are getting better. however, the changes are again too high.

- 1v1 broadside to broadside they seem to have an advantage. they are snipers with their shots and dont miss much. we had a player santi who is a good player torn apart by an AI santi. when he was in a gold quality ship etc. they are just too good it seems

- Its all very well saying the AI should have a technical advantage to make up for player skill advantage but you dont actually want fights to be even. if fights are even, then players lose ships often. if you are a player in a ship that costs 1 million and you get 100,000 for winning. you need to win 9 times out of ten just to break even. the maths doesnt add up. if the fight is even, the rewards need to be even compared to the loss. at the moment, doing missions vs AI in big ships you are in danger of losing overall unless you are very careful. its just a bit too hard now. people will say 'use teammates' and 'do lower level missions' and 'play better' etc. but all of those arguments are invalid. you dont always have the option of teamates, doing lower level missions is boring, if you are in a pavel you want to fight a pavel, not club frigates to death. you can only get better by practice and you cant priactice if you cant afford a ship because you lost all your money practicing.

 

Really, there is a middle ground between the old system and the new one. 1v1, humans need the advantage otherwise we lose out financially. pls dont go the other way and massively increase mission rewards. this will make fleet farming generate so much money that the economy will be totally ruined. so, i am afraid dumbing down the AI a little bit is the only reasonable solution.

 

4. the changes to player capture are excellent. spammed free 3rd rates at an infinite supply was totally unbalancing the game. both in terms of combat and economy. there were far too many port battles and no one cared if they lost a fleet of 25 3rd rates, it had no effect. it was used to xp and cash farm endlessly in situations like the Jeremie seige, where you could throw away a 3rd rate every night for 2 weeks and earn millions. now that is not possible, and losses in battle will actually mean something. this will make strategy much more meaningful and diverse. losses have to have consequences. PLEASE do not give in to people whinging that they want free 3rd rates back. this will be driven by laziness and its a very negative way to go. on the other hand, you should probably allow the capture of small combat ships to give new players a boost and more options. this wont affect national wars as 5th rates and below arent strategically significant. maybe allow anything up to surprise to be captured (6th rate historically according to some) and 5th rates and above are claimed by the government. Surprise spam is never going to be an issue in port battles.

 

In general you make changes that are great in theory but you tend to go too far. the changes are too extreme at the moment. however, the ideas are good and thats the main thing. please moderate the changes a bit and tone them down.

Edited by JCDC
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1 Leaks

Ramming leaks - fixed

Penetrating leaks. We fixed multiple bugs and problems with leaks in the 9.7 but of course fixing bugs sometimes changes things.

What was fixed/changed

 

Theory

When shot penetrates the hull holes are created (white leak)

If the hole gets under water it starts leaking (red leak)

 

 

How is it now

  • In the new system we just track the waterline (dynamically) because what interests us is potentially dangerous leaks (not all holes), taking into account the zone that can get into water. If ships start sinking it goes up automatically. 
  • Now there is no probability in leaks. Holes generate with EVERY penetration in the danger zone.
  • There is skill now in creating them. Shoot at the right moment and you might severely cripple the enemy ship. 
  • Hole sizes now depend on actual ball size (not on the weight). And require different number of people to fix. 
  • The time to fix a leak is standard across all of them (the difference is already counted in the number of people required to repair them)

 

New leaks provide new dimension to gameplay and its a great thing. They might require tuning, but in general we want them to be dangerous.

 

 

 

 

 

Sounds like below the waterline leaks will be bad for smaller ships when fighting larger ships, which is as it should be. Lots of accounts of Frigates sinking small unrated vessels by holing them, etc.

 

 

On NPC ship capture - I would suggest trying the limit at 6th rate and below to start if you are going to tweak it. That gives a new player or someone with low gold a chance to cap a decent size ship.

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3 AI

We fixed their stupidity in shooting (they always overshot to stern before), in their reloading (their reloading got stuck sometimes even if you were in their sector of fire), in their crew management. Also their marines had 1 melee bonus instead of players 1.75

 

We want ai to be challenging - so lets give it some time to test and figure it out (if more changes are needed).

But based on the patch feedback - we are worried that people want that. Seems that people just want bots for relaxing and enjoyment  (not necessarily a bad thing).

 

My thoughts:

 

- It seems AI are now much more accurate than the overwhelming majority of players I have PVPed against. I agree that the old "shoot the water" accuracy was ridiculous and lead to people developing bad habits (i.e. who cares if I show my stern, the AI will never hit it anyways) but I feel the current accuracy is a bit too far the other direction.

 

- Overall I think the AI accuracy just needs to be backed off a bit. I have been playing since Sea Trials and I usually hold my own in PVP, but I'm getting wrecked pretty hard now, even in like-vs-like matchups. I have almost 300hrs in game, and have a reasonably good idea of what I'm doing, and I like & desire a challenge from the AI, but I think AI accuracy is just a bit too good now. They went from rarely hitting, to rarely missing. Somewhere in between would be better, in my opinion.

 

- Towards that, I wonder if we could have scalable accuracy, based on AI rank. It seems like maybe this is the case now (at least pre-patch 9.7), although rather ironically, I've found it's the Midshipmen that are often the most accurate, and the Flag Captains / other high ranks the biggest "wave punchers", at least pre-patch.  I feel like it should scale according to AI rank, with low ranks being less accurate and higher ranks moreso.

 

- I don't know if it's possible to determine the bell curve for player accuracy and base AI accuracy on that, so that AI is roughly as accurate - on average - as the average player in the NA playerbase, for a given rank. That would be kind of cool, unless it makes the AI as bad at shooting as before  :P  Just a thought.

 

- My comments pertain to AI accuracy only. I think their tactics should continue to be improved, per the suggestions laid out, just that their shooting should be more human and less Terminator like. So we puny humans have a bit better chance against them.

 

Thanks for asking for our feedback!!

Edited by surfimp
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Thanks for Taking the time for our input.

Overall, I think the leaks needs to be controlled a little better. I lost a Renomee yesterday due to side armor damage and the ship sank way to quickly. The buffed AI didn't help my survival either.

With regards to AI skills, not sure if it already in the game but if not perhaps tie the AI combat skills to the ship Captains rank. I would also tie rewards, ie better loot and upgrades as well. This provides a risk/reward system that I think everyone would benefit from. If you get into fight with a higher ranked Captain you can choose to run and fight another day or take your chances for better rewards. I have not seen any impact based on NPC rank but think this would be a way to implement tougher NPC without turning every NPC into Superman.

Edited by Blackjack McGee

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