Give all ships the same open sea turning, acceleration and deceleration

[Slamz]

Problem:

Different ships have a hard time sticking tightly together on the open sea. This is going to be vastly more important in this new patch.

 

Gameplay argument:

We need to be able to stick together easier.

 

Realism Argument:

Time compression on the open sea is, I think, 72:1 (if I correctly remember an admin post). So what happens in 72 seconds "for real" is represented by 1 second on the open ocean. A 3rd rate and a Snow can both turn 180 degrees in less than 72 seconds. They can both accelerate to top speed in less than 72 seconds. So on the open sea, the difference in their turn speed and acceleration should be nearly imperceptible (the Snow might turn around in 100ms while the 3rd rate should take 400ms, if we actually want to represent that difference).

 

It makes no sense that when I turn a 3rd rate on the open sea, it takes the uncompressed equivalent of like 80 miles and 30 minutes to turn around.

 

So just normalize all ships in terms of open sea turn rate and acceleration / deceleration.

 

It will improve gameplay and is actually more realistic, factoring in the time compression going on.

 

 

Top speeds can still vary, but these other open sea stats don't make much sense.

Edited April 13, 2016 by Slamz

[Fonseca]

My opinion: No

[Slamz]

My opinion: No

 

Why not?

 

The current representation is completely unrealistic and serves no purpose.

[Dumu]

Misread the topic.

Edited April 13, 2016 by Dumu

[Vaan De Vries]

Problem:

Different ships have a hard time sticking tightly together on the open sea. This is going to be vastly more important in this new patch.

 

Gameplay argument:

We need to be able to stick together easier.

 

Realism Argument:

Time compression on the open sea is, I think, 72:1 (if I correctly remember an admin post). So what happens in 72 seconds "for real" is represented by 1 second on the open ocean. A 3rd rate and a Snow can both turn 180 degrees in less than 72 seconds. They can both accelerate to top speed in less than 72 seconds. So on the open sea, the difference in their turn speed and acceleration should be nearly imperceptible (the Snow might turn around in 100ms while the 3rd rate should take 400ms, if we actually want to represent that difference).

 

It makes no sense that when I turn a 3rd rate on the open sea, it takes the uncompressed equivalent of like 80 miles and 30 minutes to turn around.

 

So just normalize all ships in terms of open sea turn rate and acceleration / deceleration.

 

It will improve gameplay and is actually more realistic, factoring in the time compression going on.

 

 

Top speeds can still vary, but these other open sea stats don't make much sense.

completely agree

[Galileus]

How would that affect PvP and tag vs counter tag, hmmm....?

 

Hmmmmm....?

 

Hmmmmm!?

[maturin]

TLDR:

 

It makes no sense that when I turn a 3rd rate on the open sea, it takes the uncompressed equivalent of like 80 miles and 30 minutes to turn around.

[Haratik]

If you're having problems sailing together, perhaps you should work on your comm-work and finding a common fleet make-up.  Ships that have Explorer will always sail faster on the OS than other ships.

[maturin]

If you're having problems sailing together, perhaps you should work on your comm-work and finding a common fleet make-up.  Ships that have Explorer will always sail faster on the OS than other ships.

Explorer doesn't even exist anymore...

[Ruthless4u]

How would that affect PvP and tag vs counter tag, hmmm....?

 

Hmmmmm....?

 

Hmmmmm!?

I know, if every ship has the exact same qualities in OW, it would be next to impossible to catch anyone smarter than an amoeba that did not want to fight.

[Slamz]

I know, if every ship has the exact same qualities in OW, it would be next to impossible to catch anyone smarter than an amoeba that did not want to fight.

 

That's not my experience.

 

You never catch 5th rates with your 5th rate?

You never catch Snows in a Snow?

 

I would actually look harder at carrying over ship combat speed into the open sea better, but the turning differences should be washed out by the 72:1 compression.

[CaptVonGunn]

No need the faster ships just have to slow down some

[Slamz]

No need the faster ships just have to slow down some

 

But you agree that the open sea turn rate mechanics are very unrealistic, do not follow the game's time compression model, accomplishes nothing and makes no sense?

 

Just because there's a way to work around a problem doesn't mean it's not still a problem.

[CaptVonGunn]

But you agree that the open sea turn rate mechanics are very unrealistic, do not follow the game's time compression model, accomplishes nothing and makes no sense?

 

Just because there's a way to work around a problem doesn't mean it's not still a problem.

 

   Not really a problem... if you want a tight group mechanic.. rather then change the ships to all the same.. which makes no sense.. add a way that a group is now a single avatar  like the AI fleets all moving at the speed of the slowest ship in it. Then your all in a group when combat starts without requiring any skill.. I do not think this is a good idea.. But it would make the care bears happy as it would require less paying attention on their part

[Slamz]

if you want a tight group mechanic.. rather then change the ships to all the same..

 

Forget about everything else. You are a lone 3rd rate on the PvE server doing missions. You want to turn your ship around. Why does it take your ship the time-compressed equivalent of 30 minutes and 40 miles to turn around? Is your rudder broken? Are you turning by having the crew put their hands in the ocean on one side of the ship? It shouldn't take that long.

 

Your ship's rate of travel is time compressed but your turn rate is not, which is why it makes no sense and why ships have huge apparent turn rate differences which, at 72:1 time compression, they would not have.

 

Excusing it and saying we can work around it doesn't change the fact that it's dumb.

[CaptVonGunn]

That is such a minor thing it makes my head hurt.. so you want instant spin and turn?

[Galileus]

That is such a minor thing it makes my head hurt.. so you want instant spin and turn?

 

^ this. Following real compressed turn values would make the game too sensitive and unplayable.

 

Bigger and less maneuverable ships are overly slowish to turn as a part of game design. Yes, there is time compression. No, player is NOT time compressed. It makes no sense to follow real values then time compress them, because player is not capable of perceiving time as compressed, thus, everything needs to look good first, make sense later.

 

Do you know why tanks are as big as barracks in RTS games? Because it's supposed to be easy and instinctive to play first, look good second, be realistic third.

[Sir Robert Calder]

If you want a fleet that has the same turn-speed and accel/decel, bring a fleet that has all the same ships.

 

A truly skilled fleet of players actively compensates for any discrepancy that different ship types may bring to disrupt their formation.

[Hethwill]

I like the diversity of ships and inherent characteristics at levels, OW and battle. I cannot sympathize with the idea, actually I would go as far as making the differences even more pronnounced.

[BeeRanch]

NO MORE DUMBING DOWN THE GAME!!  Learn how to sail. Keeping a tight formation is a skill...learn how to do it. 

[Rebel Witch]

very bad idea for game immersion and complexity.

 

sure if you want to dumb the game down to a more arcade level then you could make all the ships the same, a 1st rate can out meneuver a privateer on the open ocean.....why is that bad?

 

because its unrealistic regardless of time compression , the performance of ships still needs to be represented

 

if you want this game to die like potbs, then make all the ships perform similarly on open ocean, players want complexity and a sailing sim more than an arcade game here. imho.

 

 

[Vllad]

 

because its unrealistic regardless of time compression , the performance of ships still needs to be represented

 

 

 

I get that people may not like it but the argument that it is unrealistic just makes no sense.

 

It is unrealistic that ships the size of Rhode Island are sailing around in the Caribbean. It is actually less realistic that (short of travel speed) their is any difference between ship performance when done on such a large scale. Not until you are in a battle instance when are you are actually simulating a real ship does ship mechanics make any sense.

 

I don't understand why it takes 82 miles for a 3rd rate to make a turn.

 

If we are simulating ship performance on two different scales then that simulation should be precise on two different scales.

 

I didn't agree with Slamz on this either until I read everybody else's thread who said it wasn't real and didn't represent reality. When I thought about it, everyone else argument against this actually supports Slamz idea. The ship performance with this time compression as is makes zero sense.

 

A 3rd rate shouldn't take 82 miles to make a turn and trying to simulate ships the size of Rhode Island performing exactly as they would if only 200 feet long makes even less sense to me.

 

If they are going to build combat mechanics representing this time compression then the ships on the open sea should represent themselves correctly as well.

 

This doesn't dumb things down, it actually represents far more reality.   

[Slamz]

I like the diversity of ships

 

If you want a fleet that has the same turn-speed and accel/decel, bring a fleet that has all the same ships.

 

And here, in these two quotes, we see the problem.

 

The best way to solve the problem is to all sail the same ship.

 

If you like seeing diverse ships in use, you need to agree to eliminate these totally unrealistic open sea differences.

[Galileus]

If you like seeing diverse ships in use, you need to agree to eliminate these totally unrealistic open sea differences.

 

Yes! Remove these totally unrealistic open sea differences so that every ship is the same! That way there will be a reason to use their different streng... wait, what?

 

Try again ^^'

[Taranis]

I'm going on a limb here: but seems to me that Slamz is pointing out that the game is getting leveled by lowest common denominator rules in the OW, when in fact the ship types (and their characteristics) vary widely.  So far variety has been to the benefit of the game, but some pvp rules on OW are creating issues.  Again, this goes to the tag circle of OW battles.