Short announcement on the 1.5x BR reinforcement limit

[Quineloe]

I think it should be impossible to sail to the other side of the fight and enter it from the other side. This directly contradicts the logic of "time acceleration" on open world.

If a battle starts and you are south of it, when you enter you should be put south of it - no matter where you are when you click in.

 

Being able to spawn in front of an enemy you couldn't overtake on the open world before the fight is flat out unrealistic.

[Long Beard]

Did you read what i proposed?

 

This would not be possible in my proposed solution.

 

Ach hard to quote your points when you type in me quote  Gonna have to copy and paste.

 

 

Visual range to me should be the focus here.  2 min battle timer is ideal. That gives anyone in visible range of the battle plenty time to get their and assist.  Anything beyond that is just, well, meh! Visual range is realistic, anything beyond that isn't. 

 

The 5 mins thing we had before was 'ok', but often we'd get a shout out in clan chat that someone was being chased or in a battle and we'd have time to stop what we were doing and go lend a hand.  We'd have had no idea about the battle had it not been for clan chat and we'd sail to the rough spot the clannie described and look for the cross swords.  More PVP yes, realistic, no.  

 

Realism or fun?  Which is more important?  Relative realism and fun.  Thats what i choose.  Having added distance in direct correlation to elapsed battle start time it is plenty easy to escape before the joining forces can keep you in combat.  The proposed mechanic would make for a whole hell of a lot more interesting fights.  Right now a battle is basically small skirmishes or cat and mouse chase and catch.  Imagine the battles possible with the system i propose.   Reinforcements joining on either side of the battle could be having their own fights 9 mins away from the initial fight in a cove introduced in land in battle.   Having reinforcements join positionaly and distance relative adds a whole new layer of gameplay.  However players like our selves can still hit a solo player, sink it, and sail away before the reinforcements get in range.   It makes a much more rich game.  Gives the possibility of large open sea engagements where 25 v 25 fleets are fighting around islands.   But it doesnt eliminate the possibility of solo players from piracy.

 

Realism or fun? Honestly? A mix between the two. I don't like the idea that someone is given the option to join a battle if they are beyond visual range of it. Maybe I got it wrong, you didn't mention distance when you described the periodic expansion of the battle circle over time.  

Interesting fights? Well here I have to say, I am not interested in interesting fights. I accept wholeheartedly that I am probably a very small minority of player who likes to pirate like a pirate. Interesting fights are fine when I'm with me buddies in my PVP ship, and we're looking for pure PVP, but most of the time I'm not looking for fight, I'm looking for a lone trader stupid enough to sail the OW without an escort. I want his cargo, and the faster I can get it, the better.  Don't get me wrong, I also love PVP battles when I'm in a ship built for it, but when I'm solo in enemy waters, I'm looking to avoid a fight, not get into one.  Again, I accept that I speak for a small minority of players here.

Reinforcements joining on either side of the battle could be having their own fights 9 mins away? Well I think for RVR this is good, but for me, I have NO reinforcements on my side, it's them v me. I've been in 40 min battles with a trader before. A skilled captain in a trader can drag a battle out for a while. There would be no fights, there would only be many ships chasing me, and a clued up trader would sail towards his reinforcements turning that 9 mins into 3.5. I would soon be swamped by those people. Escape becomes difficult to impossible.

 

The old system worked because those joining the battle late would spawn in a position that gave you enough time to calculate your escape vector.  It was plausible because the didn't spawn one in front and one behind. You could still weigh up your chances and decide how best to escape. It wasn't perfect, granted but it was better to having players being able to timewarp past your position and spawn anywhere they liked.

[Vijar]

Maybe it needs some more testing and fine tuning, but so far I think I like the battle rating limit because it matches the difference in time acceleration between open world and battle instance.

 

The attacker has to sail in a fleet now. Not just a small fast ship that forces the enemy into the slower time acceleration of the battle instance by attacking to make it possible for the larger ships to catch up from far away in the faster time accelerated open world and then jump in.

 

Also all battles I had with a higher BR difference on any side where boring for me, as there was no challenge at all. This change reduces the number of unfun PvP battles that I anyways don't want to participate in and increases the number of fun PvP battles in my opinion.

Edited April 14, 2016 by Vijar

[Azzak]

Can we make an exception to this rule during flag wars ? If there is a big battle near flag holder, I wish that a faction can bring as many ships it can into the battle without 1,5xbr restriction. This is not about gank, but simply having more troops and better ships than the enemy. Too bad if one nation don't have that many but that's open factional warfare, not "just" PVP.

 

So to sum up, that any ships near x meters of an allied or enemy flag holder don't have 1,5x BR restriction when it comes to entering battles.

Edited April 14, 2016 by Azzak

[Michael JD]

Glad to see that the care bears are negatively effecting the game just because they are not capable enough to watch for sails on the horizon.

[Neptune]

Glad to see that the care bears are negatively effecting the game just because they are not capable enough to watch for sails on the horizon.

 

Once again, this isn't what the problem is. Avoiding ganks and counter-tagging is easy as pie. The problem was finding fights that weren't ganks. You could search for hours and not find a single fight where either you are ganking or the enemy was ganking.

 

You can still gank, just need to be in the circle. BR system is a welcome change but not for those people who need to gank every time they do a battle. It's been great so far, lots of interesting fights since it was added.

 

1.5X BR is plenty to accomplish what you need to do, sink or capture the enemy and have fun while doing. You should not need anymore than that. And if you can't succeed at pulling off a 1x5X BR vs 1X BR without all being sunk or capped, then you need to stay in a huddle and make sure no one gets ahead of eachother. I understand some are still learning the game and find it hard to sink enemy even when they outnumber them badly. I've had some funny fight agianst those kind of groups. You will learn to PvP, just takes time.

 

Carebares? Not sure about that, you are calling quite a few of the best PvPers and vets carebares. A lot of people want good fun fights. It's not the fact everyone dosen't know how to avoid ganks, it's finding a fun fight that is worth your time you spend on the game.

 

So I understand this theory, 17 people so 14 have to sit outside the fight so you can't gank a lone player 17v1. No, actually the rest of the players can go and look for another fight. You don't have to sit there and wait for the other 3 to get out, nobody is telling you to sit there and wait for the battle to end. I'm in a guild, and finding multiple FUN and ENTERTAINING battles is a hell of a lot better than one big boring ass 17v1 gank vs someone who wasn't paying attention and sailing up wind.

 

Give this mechanic time to test. If it lowers ganks, and makes the game more enjoyable and fun to play, then it has accomplished what it was added for.  And if it works well and gives us entertaining, epic battles, I believe it will stay.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Acadian44

[mouse of war]

Being gangked is just the result of the player's decision to put his ship into a dangerous situation.

 

It may be a calculated gamble. It may be inexperience. But it is definitely a choice made.

 

I found it annoying this first few times it happened to me. Now I don't even see the term 'gank' in any sort of negative light.

If I now get ganked it's because of luck or a poor decision I've made - why would I want to artificially avoid the consequences of my actions? If the enemy wants to gank me - let them gank me! They should be able to do so.

 

And if I find that somehow upsetting it's because I have forgotten that it's just a game and ships are easy to come by.

 

I'm not saying the rules will make much difference - it's just the idea that ganking should be limited by rules that I can't agree to

[Michael JD]

Any limitation of ganking on an Open world PVP server is just wrong.  That being said I agree that having people wait at the battle screen is unacceptable and an unfair tactic.  However, the 1.5 battle rating discourages any kind of strategy when "baiting" out an enemy force.  You are practically saying, "hey I know you worked hard recruiting 40+ members and I know that baiting an enemy squadron out takes both patience and finesse. However, the enemy fleet that attempted to gank your member requires a fair fight and must be able to see what you bring to the field so they can decide not to take the fight and run back to port.  Therefor you can only bring a portion of your force."

 

Please don't ruin this game by catering to the carebears who whine just because they got sunk. If they don't want to fight, pick either a safe spot on the map or go to the PVE server.  Heck, form a defense fleet and chase us out of the area. But please get rid of this rediculous 1.5 rating.

[iR_Willow]

The fix should be players using cooperation and wits not some patch to hold there hands.

[ThrottleFox]

Friend jumped a NPC LGV trader, I tried to jump in and help, nope.

[Jan van Santen]

Friend jumped a NPC LGV trader, I tried to jump in and help, nope.

 

Confirmed. 

 

Same happened twice when we tried to attack a small fleet on PvE server. I attacked, the other player in my group could not join. On PvE server the new anti ganking system just prevents attacks against the AI.....

[KuroNyra]

Confirmed. 

 

Same happened twice when we tried to attack a small fleet on PvE server. I attacked, the other player in my group could not join. On PvE server the new anti ganking system just prevents attacks against the AI.....

"Working as intented" I guess?

 

 

 

Seriously, Devs want to prevent Ganking, but they don't even solve the main problem... And create even more problems with that. Why do I have a feeling of deja vue when I say that?

[Neptune]

"Working as intented" I guess?

Seriously, Devs want to prevent Ganking, but they don't even solve the main problem... And create even more problems with that. Why do I have a feeling of deja vue when I say that?

NPC means non player controlled/bot/AI. Unless that was a typo, it has nothing to do with the BR system, unless it's bugged for AI or actually intended to be that way, but I doubt it. Also if you want to gank a player trader just be sure you are all in the tagging circle. Edited April 15, 2016 by Acadian44

[Magnum]

I really like the idea of a 2x larger tag circle combined with a 30 second join timer -- COMBINED with all non tagged human sailors in the tag circle having an "opt out" option, NPC's would always be included.

 

While in operation it could be simple and clean, it might require some programmatic magic by the devs. It might require everyone in a tag circle being able to see it - combined with a pop up "join Surprise v. 3rd" or "decline" with an auto decline after 30 seconds.

[nPeT_HanPoJIoM]

Limit 1.5 BR on attacker's side only. 4 frigates on 1 SOL is still a gank. Its sad when a couple of frigates join in on SOL near your capital and there's plenty of people around but you cant help him and he gets stern raked and captured, and then attackers just flee to the protected area.

Edited April 15, 2016 by nPeT_HanPoJIoM

[Hethwill]

Limit 1.5 BR on attacker's side only. 4 frigates on 1 SOL is still a gank. Its sad when a couple of frigates join in on SOL near your capital and there's plenty of people around but you cant help him and he gets stern raked and captured, and then attackers just flee to the protected area.

 

If there's plenty of people around they should've seen the enemy ships and moved to intercept. Everyone in the circle will be added to the battle with not concern for BR.

[nPeT_HanPoJIoM]

If there's plenty of people around they should've seen the enemy ships and moved to intercept. Everyone in the circle will be added to the battle with not concern for BR.

Well, the point of the this update was to limit ganking, but what i really ment that it helps ganking as much as it limits it

[Hethwill]

Well, the point of the this update was to limit ganking, but what i really ment that it helps ganking as much as it limits it

 

There is no difference, regarding that, as before.

Main difference, and I will repeat it, is that the invisible gank is much less possible. The groups that do it must rely on lower rates and yet they will probably cannot enter because of timer and relative positioning.

 

Regarding skilled players it does not make that much of a difference but if the ganked victim is competent it turns to be dangerous.

 

If anything all the changes to battles, from tagging to spawn positions to structure damage, etc, have made the skill gap much more wide now. And in that concern, I approve of the changes. Made me rethink many things in the game and return to some things I already knew.

 

Guys that did not help before do not help now and will not help ever no matter the mechanics.

 

Live example. Constitution is jumped by 5 Snows and a Privateer to keep the BR fair . You won't convince me that the Ironsides can't deal with them in short order if he has an idea of how and what he is doing...

 

Oh, and was right in front of Carlisle with a few ships around, no one even tried to get into the circle to get into the fight but turned tail and made to port.

 

Nope, no touches in BR will help with this kind of mentality.

[nPeT_HanPoJIoM]

9 basic cutters, 2 yachts, 1 snow, 1 privateer = 410 br

vs

1 constitusion and 1 snow = 350 br

Guess what? connie and snow sinked. And it was before the patch with the laser-guided thermonuclear 6 pounders that can penetrate pavel at 300m if angeled good (tested myself in my pavel against ai, around 50% penetrate rate)

Edited April 15, 2016 by nPeT_HanPoJIoM

[Fletch]

I really like the idea of a 2x larger tag circle combined with a 30 second join timer -- COMBINED with all non tagged human sailors in the tag circle having an "opt out" option, NPC's would always be included.

 

While in operation it could be simple and clean, it might require some programmatic magic by the devs. It might require everyone in a tag circle being able to see it - combined with a pop up "join Surprise v. 3rd" or "decline" with an auto decline after 30 seconds.

 

Making the circle bigger will make ships start even further apart this means you could defensive tag people and always escape. There was nothing wrong with the old system, they could of just tweaked invul timers so unseen people cant pile in a battle, apart from that an unlimited BR,  2 min timer was spot on in my opinion.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Edward the Black

[Babble]

The old system worked because those joining the battle late would spawn in a position that gave you enough time to calculate your escape vector.  It was plausible because the didn't spawn one in front and one behind. You could still weigh up your chances and decide how best to escape. It wasn't perfect, granted but it was better to having players being able to timewarp past your position and spawn anywhere they liked.

i hear you mate but i think you may be underestimating how far away people would be spawning into the battle.

 

You have a minute 40 escape timer if you are hitting a trader.  If anyone joined within the 2 minute timer we currently have they would be joining a 7 minute sail away from max cannonball range.  Thats more then enough time for you to decide what you want to do.

 

So in the new system i proposed you would scan the horizon.  Make a judgment call and hit the trader.  Everything that could now join that you did not see on the horizon would be joining at least 7 minutes away from you at max cannon ball range.

 

I play very similar to you.  While the system i propose may not be easy mode for us i think the befits for the game far out weigh any negative to my gameplay.

[fox2run]

I would say that Niels Therkelsens suggestion combined with some easy non-pvp missions for beginners could do the trick. In a pvp world there must be some hazards... Otherwise it may be better to quit the OW and focus on historical battles like Trafalgar, Copenhagen, Cap Saint Vincent etc. and ladders. Or maybe make a more clear distinction between PVE and PVP server.

[Grum]

The last patch is add to the game many good and  great stuff , but after playing a day with our party we can say one thing. The Br limit 1.5 is totally destroy groop sailing and pvp for medium and large ship.  It just kill all point of the game, we can't sail with groop any more.

 

 Small ships atack our ship in way what only 2 or 3 or ships in circle and we CAN'T get to the battle to help (we has been sailing were were close one to another). Yesterday our groop was split out in 3 small battle.  Today we have a problem to get party of 6 ships, no one one play... Thanks for kilning PVP.

 

It kill any point be in groop or be in clan, it just get more easy experience for alone player because they more protect now from been attack by big company  but totally destroy fleet sailing.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Grum

[akd]

Friend jumped a NPC LGV trader, I tried to jump in and help, nope.

Why weren't you sailing next to your friend?

[Rabman]

I'll just stay that I dont like the change, but I would definitely be considered a ganker, so perhaps I'm bias. However we will work around this to continue ganking.

 

With all of that said, I don't believe this is working. Two nights ago, we were in 3 Connies 900 BR. We were chased and tagged by three frigates and a belle poule 720 BR. They pull us in the fight after the battle starts a surprise and another frigate join 320 BR, along with a 3rd rate and another belle poule 680 BR, finally followed up close to the 2m entry timer another 3rd rate joins 500BR.

 

How did the last Belle Poule and 3rd rate join?