Short announcement on the 1.5x BR reinforcement limit

[Dumu]

Imagine the situation where you sail in a big group, like carrying a conquest flag. Somebody tags you with half of your ships in the ring and pulls them in to battle, the rest cant join. Then you have 12 ppl with a flag outside to be killed.

 

Or if you have 2 equal fleets you can send out 5 ships to pull as many ships as they can and the rest can just kill the ones that didnt get pulled in..

Edited April 13, 2016 by Dumu

[Niels Terkildsen]

One quick suggestion would be - once reinforcement touches the edge of the circle message appears (Join Battle or Decline). Player picks Decline. Boom - After that there will be no more chances to reinforce for that player. Some other player can try the same at better angle and Accept to reinforce. So, entering circle will be critical. No need to sail through it and position at right angle, the moment you touch it that is it. How you touch the circle is up to you. 

 

Battle position is based how you touch the edge of the circle. 

 

Almost exactly what I suggested:

Another option would be to put a very large circle around the battle instance, and when reaching this you get a one-time option to join from this direction (representing the horizon of the battle instance) or decline; this would possibly deal with the potential abuse of positional reinforcement.

 

I think it's crucial, though, that the circle is very large and not just the normal tagging-circle.

 

This combined with what akd suggested above might work.

Edited April 13, 2016 by Niels Terkildsen

[Long Beard]

One quick suggestion would be - once reinforcement touches the edge of the circle message appears (Join Battle or Decline). Player picks Decline. Boom - After that there will be no more chances to reinforce for that player. Some other player can try the same at better angle and Accept to reinforce. So, touching circle will be critical. No need to sail through it and position at right angle, the moment you touch it that is it. How you touch the circle is up to you. 

 

Battle position is based how you touch the edge of the circle. 

 

Devs please take note. 

 

Yes, I like!

I have just partially tested the system by sailing into the circle of a battle. I saw where the battle started and was close enough. I had plenty time to sail into the circle and chose a point a head of the battle.

 

I couldn't join because it was a mission  but it still gave me an idea of how this is could pan out in reality..

 

I think the BR mechanic is solid, but this positional reinforcements thing is rather unrealistic.   That said, I've not seen how far I would have spawned from the main battle so I will test it some more in hostile waters later tonight.

[Ned Loe]

Imagine the situation where you sail in a big group, like carrying a conquest flag. Somebody tags you with half of your ships in the ring and pulls them in to battle, the rest cant join. Then you have 12 ppl with a flag outside to be killed.

 

Or if you have 2 equal fleets you can send out 5 ships to pull as many ships as they can and the rest can just kill the ones that didnt get pulled in..

Not sure if you can tag 12 people in 1 ship. BR is too big. 

[akd]

Imagine the situation where you sail in a big group, like carrying a conquest flag. Somebody tags you with half of your ships in the ring and pulls them in to battle, the rest cant join. Then you have 12 ppl with a flag outside to be killed.

 

 

This didn't work before (as a way to avoid BR ratio limits when tagging flag carriers or attempt to split assault fleets).  Why would it work now?

[Dumu]

It worked, you needed like 5x3rd rates to pull half of the fleet in. Most of the time when the flag carrier gets intercepted not everyone is pulled in the battle. Until now the rest have just joined the battle.

[Niels Terkildsen]

I'm starting to think the best solution would simply be to make the tagging-circle slightly bigger, and then close battle-instances entirely: no reinforcements whatsoever.

 

Any ships that would realistically have a chance to reach the fight before it's over should be covered by a wider tagging-circle. Perhaps make two circles instead of one: the first circle forcibly dragging ships into the battle-instance - the second, much larger circle, giving the ships the option to join from their position (preferably very far away, closing on the horizon when at the fringes of the second circle).

[Crayon]

There needs to be a way to allow other nations into a group. Not all the people I hunt with are US.

[Long Beard]

In short, looks like pre-battle OW positioning really does mean nothing right now.  It matters only for the attacker and the attacked player.  Seem's harsh that getting a good position to attack or escape at the initial tag is essential, but totally irrelevant to those joining once the battle has begun.

 

This translates into having no ability of assessing your surroundings in OW before committing to an attack. As solo attacker you're effectively going in blind which no one wants to do.  

[Slamz]

I think I have a better idea:

 

• Reduce join time to 30 seconds.
• Increase join distance to be about 2x the radius of the circle.
  (really the distance should allow "anyone you can see when the tag happens" to join the fight, as before the patch)

 

The lower join time will eliminate port exit and battle exit ganks, but the larger join circle will still allow legitimate allies in the area to join the battle without having to manage turning around and fighting upwind and sailing a long distance. If the battle occurred near them, the large join distance should let them in.

 

 

 

Also, I still think you are missing the key point most of us have been making, which is that we join Naval Action to play together. We do not want to split up and get into 5 separate fights. If we wanted to fight separately, we would be playing single player games or MOBAs. We want a game where 11 of us can log in and play together and up until now, Naval Action has been that game.

Edited April 13, 2016 by Slamz

[Prater]

Why does your 8 person group have to sail and fight together at every second?  It's like lovers who are joined at the hip and can't be apart from each other.  You don't all have to sail around together and fight together in every single battle at every single moment.  A clan can make the same argument as you that they want all 100 members of their clan to be together at every moment in the game.

[Slamz]

"Captain's Log, day 4. Sighted a pirate Trincomalee attacking a friendly Surprise. I decided not to join the attack in my own Trincomalee as this would not have been fair for the pirate, as it would present a BR ratio of 1.7 to 1 against him. Sailed away, ignoring all pleas for assistance. I did not want to be thought of as an unskilled ganker, after all." -- Horatio Hornblower, the Naval Action Edition.

 

 

You guys really are not thinking this one through. I imagine we'll talk again in 2 weeks, with a lot more of you being on my side of the debate once you realize the real impact.

[Random]

*Content moderated*

Anything constructive to add to the conversation? How does gallantry and valor relate to piracy? Could you also provide some historical examples when a group of ship captains refused to fight a solo enemy ship and stood by watching one of their comrades gallantly fight that ship 1v1? Please read up on the Mercury... This game is about naval combat in an open world setting. People are providing constructive criticism of the new game mechanic that in their opinion is detrimental to the success of this game. Please refrain from commenting unless you can add something more constructive than insults and profanity laced suppositions.  

 

I for one would like to note that inability to assist a friend whose large ship is being ganked by a fleet of small ships is a legitimate concern that needs to be addressed. That has the potential to frustrate people into leaving this game.

Edited April 13, 2016 by Henry d'Esterre Darby

[Slamz]

"Captain's Log, Day 5. Sighted friendly Victory under attack by 3 Trincomalees and a Cerberus. A quick check of my math suggests that if I were to join the battle in my own Trincomalee, it would create a battle ratio of 1.57 to 1 in our favor. Decided to leave the Victory to his fate, as I would not wish to join him and be thought of as a ganker." -- Horatio Hornblower, Naval Action Edition, Continued Tales.

[Random]

Upon further consideration, I will add the following to my earlier statement: the devs are trying to address a problem that has a certain measure of significance (the extent of that measure is rather subjective at the moment, but that does not negate the existence of the problem). The problem as I see it refers largely to the unfun aspect of being ganked that frustrates people and leaves them with an unfavorable perception of this game. In order to solve that problem the devs are implementing various changes during the development of this game (as they should). Not all changes, however, are created equal and not all changes will mitigate the problem in equal measure. Similarly, some changes will have unforeseen and detrimental consequences that we as testers should point out. I would strongly urge people discussing this issue to remove themselves from the perspective of gankers and gankees and to approach it critically. Analyze different potential consequences, test them out in the game, discuss them with a high degree of decorum and with an earnest desire to understand the other side of your argument. In other words, test the game as you signed up to do and provide constructive criticism of potentially bad features while also suggesting constructive approaches to solving the original problem that these features were meant to solve. 

[Niels Terkildsen]

 

I'm starting to think the best solution would simply be to make the tagging-circle slightly bigger, and then close battle-instances entirely: no reinforcements whatsoever.

 

Any ships that would realistically have a chance to reach the fight before it's over should be covered by a wider tagging-circle. Perhaps make two circles instead of one: the first circle forcibly dragging ships into the battle-instance - the second, much larger circle, giving the ships the option to join from their position (preferably very far away, closing on the horizon when at the fringes of the second circle).

 

Here's an example of how this would work:

 

- The aggressive group (black 1, 2, 3, and 4) have succeeded in closing in on two of the enemy ships to their leeward (green 1 and 2).

- The dark red circle is the regular tagging-circle, and all ships within this will be pulled into the battle at their relative positions.

- Black 3 and 4, who are in the light red circle, will get the option to join the battle as reinforcement (starting far away from those in the tagging-circle, coming from their relative positions).

- Black 4 in this example may want to decline this offer to pursue green 3, but upon doing so will not be able to reinforce the first battle anymore.

 

NOTE: Everything isn't scaled properly; this is simply for presenting the general idea. The light red circle could, for example, be even larger than this in relation to the tagging-circle.

[Slamz]

 The light red circle could, for example, be even larger than this in relation to the tagging-circle.

 

I like this idea, and this is effectively similar to my proposal of making click-in distances be much larger, with a shorter join timer.

 

* Makes it easy for groups to stay together within a much more reasonable distance.

* Absolutely prevents dock-ganks and battle-exit ganks (they are invuln at the time of the tag and are therefore totally disqualified to enter the fight at all).

* Makes more sense, realism-wise, than the current system

* Much less "gamey" (harder to "game the system"; what-you-see-is-what-you-can-get).

Edited April 13, 2016 by Slamz

[Roche Brasiliano]

Anything constructive to add to the conversation? How does gallantry and valor relate to piracy? Could you also provide some historical examples when a group of ship captains refused to fight a solo enemy ship and stood by watching one of their comrades gallantly fight that ship 1v1? Please read up on the Mercury... This game is about naval combat in an open world setting. People are providing constructive criticism of the new game mechanic that in their opinion is detrimental to the success of this game. Please refrain from commenting unless you can add something more constructive than insults and profanity laced suppositions.  

 

I for one would like to note that inability to assist a friend whose large ship is being ganked by a fleet of small ships is a legitimate concern that needs to be addressed. That has the potential to frustrate people into leaving this game.

 

*Insults and abusive behavior moderated*

 

 Shooting pixels in an MMO. Not even in the same league matey. 

 

Same state of mind...

 

Apparently you didn't read the forum rules.  2 day read only to calm down and refresh yourself on how we expect people to conduct themselves here. - H. Darby

Edited April 13, 2016 by Henry d'Esterre Darby

[Random]

A certain individual not to be named here asked a question (prior to being reprimanded for lack of decorum) that does bear some measure of relevance to this topic. I do feel the need to address it as it could potentially broaden people's understanding of the issue at hand. The question asked how many gangs I participated in. The answer is 1. That gang took place when I was playing as a pirate on PvP2 and it's lack of fun and bully-like nature forced me to re-evaluate the team I was playing on. I then joined the French team that among many other thoughtfull and well-mannered people featured Slamz, Vllad and Bach who are very active in this thread. At that time they were actively fighting the pirate zerg and developing their own anti-gank tactics (that ultimately succeeded at ruining the gank for pirates and contributed to pirate clans abandoning the faction and in some cases the server.

 

I mention this for two reasons:

 

1) these guys know a thing or two about ganks and fighting them. As such their opinion on issues involving ganking should not be discarded lightly. Rather, engage in a thoughtful conversation with them and see where they are coming from and what they would suggest as meaningful changes to various in-game features.

 

2) there seems to exist a certain barrier that many people are incapable of overcoming when it comes to issues related to anti-gank features in this game. People seem to assume that those who oppose such features are gankers and therefore they only want to gank without limits. I am not a ganker and neither are individuals mentioned above. We want to have a discussion of potentially unforeseen and unwelcome consequences of developers' attempts to address the gank problem. Such discussions can weed out bad features and lead to the development of better ones that would make this game better for all. Please stop accusing people of being gankers and engage in a thoughtful discussion about recent changes and how they affect the game.

 

Thank you. 

[Svartschegg]

Our goal is to protect interests of an average player. They are silent and only read the forums; not speaking up much.

Offtopic, but I'd like to say that I appreciate this sentiment. It's easy to just take what's being written on the forums for absolute truths; my own rants included.

[Merikarhu]

I would like to not limit the BR, set no timers. All active battles would show on map and can be joined, tho it would have to have limitations. For example if you leave the battle instance you cant get back. No more running and hiding.

[Catastrophy]

Not sure about this change. You can still jump single targets with a big fleet - it needs some decent cooperation and comms. However trying to join with that circle thing is counter intuitive and seems random.

 

I was thinking: Why not allow ships to pour in as reinforcements, but have that moderated by some kind of matchmaker that decides when a new wave of reinforcements is admitted to join. If a battle is of interest to players they have still time to reach it and maybe join. Isn't this what we need? Some kind of matching people together that struggle to overcome the OW limits?

[Sharden]

In general I like the idea of finding a working system to prevent massively unfair fights. One thing I'd like to mention though:

 

Yesterday while returning from a Mission in my Bellona, I got tagged by a single Constitution. As we derped out a bit, my mate was too far away to be dragged into the battle as well. After the battle started, no one could join in to support (as the BR difference for my side was larger than 1.5). I did survive, but it is a bit frustrating that as a defender no one can join u and the attacking side is safe from facing any reinforcments, especially as they most likely have ships fitted for fighting players rather than NPCs.

 

I don't really have a good idea what or how to change it, maybe raise the BR difference to 2x or increase the Br-Difference for the defending side, but i believe there should be done something.

 

Right now, small ganking groups of renommee's/trincs seem to be quite safe and incredibly strong - at least in my point of view

[Eishen]

In general I like the idea of finding a working system to prevent massively unfair fights. One thing I'd like to mention though:

 

Yesterday while returning from a Mission in my Bellona, I got tagged by a single Constitution. As we derped out a bit, my mate was too far away to be dragged into the battle as well. After the battle started, no one could join in to support (as the BR difference for my side was larger than 1.5). I did survive, but it is a bit frustrating that as a defender no one can join u and the attacking side is safe from facing any reinforcments, especially as they most likely have ships fitted for fighting players rather than NPCs.

 

I don't really have a good idea what or how to change it, maybe raise the BR difference to 2x or increase the Br-Difference for the defending side, but i believe there should be done something.

 

Right now, small ganking groups of renommee's/trincs seem to be quite safe and incredibly strong - at least in my point of view

 

Do not take offense please , but it seems simply as you and your companion were doing things wrong (bad at keeping formation) and the consti player was very clever in gaining advantage from that.    

[Fuhajins of Autumn]

Reading this made it clearer and this is good. I approve this.