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Remove 1.5BR anti-gank programming


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Everyone going fir?  Please do.  If I do force a fight (say, catching them against the coast), they are easily dead.

 

I for one am not changing to fir.

 

Anyway, we don't know how this is going to work.  Let's try it for a few weeks and see.

I don't know that everyone would switch to fir. But I do think, like POTBS, we're going to start seeing an ocean full of Reno's, Niagaras and fir Trincs. The community will naturally gravitate to whatever ships can escape or control a 1.5BR off set. They did it in POTBS with the Vengy. I would wager they will do it here. When it becomes prevalent enough the rest of use will have to also switch to these boats to have any hope of getting pvp. So kiss your open ocean 3rd rates and Connies goodbye.

It won't be all bad but there will be a lot fewer pvp fights as players just start running away from any 1.5 fight they don't want. Which will essentially be any they didn't start.

Since there will be less successful pvp there will be less pvp xp. So the importance of level grinding will be higher as a method of gaining xp.

Small and large battles might become more popular as will arranged fights as a way of being able to fight in slower ships. We'll all be hanging at la tortue near Mortimer town arranging fights to get 6v6 pvp. At that point we will have become POTBS II

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Making fights all equal and fair is like giving trophy's out for participation. That doesn't make anyone better. Competition in its most extreme makes people better.

 

I Agree, doing fair or unfair fights will never teach you how to PvP, it will make you worse. 

Ganks are the one and only kind of PvP that will teach one how to PvP and get better.

 

1.5x BR you can still outnumber your enemy. 

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I said the opposite of all of these things.

 

I have learned how to solo 4 players and sink 2 or 3 before getting away. I have learned how to sink two in a 1 vs. 6 or 7 fight before dying. I have learned how to fight retreating battles in a 6 vs 15 fight and get sinks. You only learn this by being forced into extreme pvp fights.

 

With great odds you need to hone your skills far more than fighting even battles. You can't make any mistakes when the odds are heavily against you otherwise you go down fast.

 

Even fights are dull and generally generate very little excitement. You can make numerous mistakes and still come out on top. In even fights unless you are really out classed those fights just aren't as epic. A fight with generally even odds unless it is massive (25 v 25) just doesn't hone skills like fights do when great odds are stacked against them.

 

My entire point is making fights more even doesn't make the players skill any higher, it just makes it easier for bad pvp players to win more fights. It makes players lazy since the challenge now goes out of it.

 

Making fights all equal and fair is like giving trophy's out for participation. That doesn't make anyone better. Competition in its most extreme makes people better.

Fighting while outnumbered is all very heroic but reality of situation is 90% of the server would rather 6vs1 instead of trying 3vs7 and that's why we are getting to try these beautiful restrictions. And as you said it yourself, people like to minimize their risk and increase their winning chances as much as possible.

 

Players never improve their skills unless faced with extreme threat. They always take the path of least resistance and it makes players lazy.

Why bother improving anything at all if you can just outnumber enemies and be done with it? It's war after all and RvR and whatnot.

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I Agree, doing fair or unfair fights will never teach you how to PvP, it will make you worse. 

Ganks are the one and only kind of PvP that will teach one how to PvP and get better.

 

1.5x BR you can still outnumber your enemy.

But even at 1.5BR it still has the problem of leaving bored players outside the battle. All they are learning is what a waste of time chasing pvp in this game can become. You can say they can go fight someone else. But you can't guarantee someone else is even there. What this rule does guarantee is that they have to miss out on some Pvp. Perhaps we can add in a "gems" app they can play while they wait?

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But even at 1.5BR it still has the problem of leaving bored players outside the battle. All they are learning is what a waste of time chasing pvp in this game can become. You can say they can go fight someone else. But you can't guarantee someone else is even there. What this rule does guarantee is that they have to miss out on some Pvp. Perhaps we can add in a "gems" app they can play while they wait?

 

Everyone who wants ganks says this, I'm sure theirs the possibility of their being more than 1 battle on the whole server? Lots of targets, if you don't get in the battle circle when the PvP starts and you out number enemy that bad go find another PvP. Not to difficult is it?  Better to have 2 separate PvPs, both being fun instead of 1 lopsided PvP. 

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Fighting while outnumbered is all very heroic but reality of situation is 90% of the server would rather 6vs1 instead of trying 3vs7 and that's why we are getting to try these beautiful restrictions. And as you said it yourself, people like to minimize their risk and increase their winning chances as much as possible.

 

Why bother improving anything at all if you can just outnumber enemies and be done with it? It's war after all and RvR and whatnot.

One could just as easily say that the problem isn't the 6 that prefer to fight the 1. But the 1 for being alone in the first place. The lone player sailing along has no more right to pvp than the 6. He also doesn't have a right to a fair fight in a sand box simply because he chose to sail alone. There is no easy solution. But when you set up the game to side with the solo player you can't be too Suprise when you end up with a primarily solo oriented player base. Again, thus is what happened to POTBS. The team oriented players drifted off into games they could stay together in. POTBS became a soloist elite kind of game.

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Foreseeable annoyances:

1)

Your friend is sailing to port where you are waiting for a trade.

He calls for help. PvPer coming just outside the port! You jump out and rush over.

You're still invulnerable when he gets tagged so you don't get pulled in.

You can't get in to help him now because it would make the BR difference too high.

 

2)

You are all sailing as a group. Perhaps to a port battle.

The guy in the back gets tagged. Maybe he's not on teamspeak or not paying attention but anyway, he gets tagged at the edge of the circle. Since you can't see other tags, nobody else knows this is happening until he gets dragged in.

None of you can turn around and help him because it would make the BR difference too high.

 

3)

You see an fellow nation member about to get jumped.

You turn to help him.

He get tagged just before you reach the circle.

You can't help him because it would make the BR difference too high.

 

 

It will end up hurting the pugs and national espirit de corps more because you will rarely be able to help an ally that you weren't sitting on top of.

 

The good news is that skill may start to matter more than numbers. The bad news is that a whole lot of you national types relied on safety in numbers (especially from spread out help near your capital) moreso than us PvPers ever did.

 

The only thing that ever drove us off of Jamaica battles was loads of spread out Brits that would show up and wait for us. Now that we can hit them as a blob, knowing they cannot pile in on us, well, we'll see who they think really benefits from this change.

Edited by Slamz
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1. You fogot about people who want be outnumbered and who want get interesting fight even if they 100% died. I have many good fights being outnumbered, its very fun.

2. BR in game not equal ship\fleet efficiency. Pavel with 60 crew < Constitution with full crew. 

3. People win fights being x2-x3 outnumbered. You take away their fun.

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Everyone who wants ganks says this, I'm sure theirs the possibility of their being more than 1 battle on the whole server? Lots of targets, if you don't get in the battle circle when the PvP starts and you out number enemy that bad go find another PvP. Not to difficult is it?  Better to have 2 separate PvPs, both being fun instead of 1 lopsided PvP.

Why do you assume I want ganks. You have taken this tact with me, Vllad and just about any of us who think this rule is bad for the game.

You also don't appear to read posts. Tarranis told you we started out NA fighting out numbered and didn't quit. Kinda the opposit of Gankers. Vllad is probably one of the best 1v1 combatants in NA and any rule that forces 1v1 just makes the game easier for him. You make a lot of assumptions about us personal just because of the one view we have. But I don't think your actually listening to any if us.

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how about addressing the root cause and not this very poorly thought out bandaid fix.  Dump players out of instances immediately after battle concludes.  Also, auto-retire (boot from instance) anyone who has the ability to punch out after X amount of time say 2-5 so they cant sail around.

 

You can also limit battle times based on BR of the teams.  So someone cant just sit there and put 1 round in a traders sail every minute to keep themselves in a fight.

 

 

Also, get rid of invisibility unless you are coming out of your own nations port.  You could also replacie invisibility timer with rooting attacking side in place for that amount of time.

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it can be controlled by timers and the impossibility to join fight when gang undock or login.

 

 

We just lose people who generate PvP content ingame.

 

 

Really.  So, the most wanted content that players want - land in battles - is added, and more people will quit the game over it?  No one knows how it is going to work.  No one knows how player numbers is going to go, except, well, like this:  The patch will happen.  At first there will be a lot more than normal, then it will slowly lose players.  This is what has happened every major content patch since OW was released last year.

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Foreseeable annoyances:

1)

Your friend is sailing to port where you are waiting for a trade.

He calls for help. PvPer coming just outside the port! You jump out and rush over.

You're still invulnerable when he gets tagged so you don't get pulled in.

You can't get in to help him now because it would make the BR difference too high.

2)

You are all sailing as a group. Perhaps to a port battle.

The guy in the back gets tagged. Maybe he's not on teamspeak or not paying attention but anyway, he gets tagged at the edge of the circle. Since you can't see other tags, nobody else knows this is happening until he gets dragged in.

None of you can turn around and help him because it would make the BR difference too high.

3)

You see an fellow nation member about to get jumped.

You turn to help him.

He get tagged just before you reach the circle.

You can't help him because it would make the BR difference too high.

It will end up hurting the pugs and national espirit de corps more because you will rarely be able to help an ally that you weren't sitting on top of.

The good news is that skill may start to matter more than numbers. The bad news is that a whole lot of you national types relied on safety in numbers (especially from spread out help near your capital) moreso than us PvPers ever did.

The only thing that ever drove us off of Jamaica battles was loads of spread out Brits that would show up and wait for us. Now that we can hit them as a blob, knowing they cannot pile in on us, well, we'll see who they think really benefits from this change.

This is what happened in POTBS. We lost the rescuers as well as the gankers. The gankers adjusted to 2 man ganks and the rescuers were screwed. You couldn't jump in to help a cargo ship being attacked by two pirates. It just ends up being you vs. 2 pirates while the cargo ship runs for it. Same thing if the other guys in inexperienced, unprepared or otherwise just runs. So the rescue type players eventually just quit. The gankers adjusted to the new mechanic and used it to advantage.

Last night in pvp1 a guy called for help. Pirates were gankng and had him pinned in port. So me and team mate race to help. 30min later, yes it takes a long time to sail in this game, we get on scene just as a pirate frig tags his third rate. We jump in the battle and discover why. The third rate is running missions and is only armed with Coronades. The pirate guesses this and has long guns. The 3rd rate would have been dead meat. But our two brigs get in the fight and it's essentially two brigs vs. a pirate frig as the 3rd rate sails around uselessly in the back ground.

Why is this important? Because if that same event occurred with the new rules we would have sailed for 30min only to have the computer prevent us from getting in the battle. Then we either sail home or wait and hour fir the pirate to pick the 3rd rate apart. BR doesn't always determine a battle. A 3rd rate with Coronades may as well be zero BR. Two Snows are only 100 and they can bring down a pirate frig at 180. But regardless, sailing for a wasted hour of my life because the computer won't let me rescue a team mate. That's only going to happen a few times. There is more to this new rule than just ganking effects.

Edited by Bach
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When some players get ganked they start to form up to make a small clan/fleet or join one.

 

So anti-ganking is against teamplay. And now it sup to the players to gather all there forces together to have a fair even fight.

 

Well I invested all my hopes into this game till this and inability to cap npc combat ships.

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Why do people freak out on the forum when this hasn't even been implemented in the game nor tested yet? Like seriously, test it first then come to the forum with your feedback.

 

Ganking is discouraging a huge number of players and making the game boring for them. It is in early access and their needs to be no stone left unturned. Everything must be tested and eventually a solution will come out of it.  EARLY ACCESS -> EXPECT TESTING......

Edited by Acadian44
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Why do people freak out on the forum when this hasn't even been implemented in the game nor tested yet? Like seriously, test it first then come to the forum with your feedback.

 

It has already been tested in games that have done this in the past. This isn't something new, this has been done many times before and it has ruined every RvR game before it. Naval Action isn't different enough for this mechanic to end any differently then every game before it.

Edited by Vllad
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Why do people freak out on the forum when this hasn't even been implemented in the game nor tested yet? Like seriously, test it first then come to the forum with your feedback.

Ganking is discouraging a huge number of players and making the game boring for them. It is in early access and their needs to be no stone left unturned. Everything must be tested and eventually a solution will come out of it. EARLY ACCESS -> EXPECT TESTING......

Because we already tested the heck out of this in POTBS and saw what it did to the various other aspects of the game. It eventually destroyed all non-gladiatorial forms of open sea pvp. With each step in the evolution of anti-gank and seal club rules more and more unforeseen aspects of the combat game died off. Its already been proven.

The engine of this game may be different. The graphics may be different. But it's the same people put into the same situations.

Let me ask you this. Why do you think this rule is going to make a difference? Those guys complaining today about being ganked by 10 guys 2 min away will be the same guys complaining next month about getting ganked by the same 10 guys that figure out how to be in the circle in smaller faster ships. Then the devs will change the BR rule to effect inside the ring. Then a month after that those same guys will complain about getting ganked by two players at 1.5 BR that attack them in a way they can't escape or get help. No one is learning how to spot, avoid or reverse ganks. It's just constantly restricting the game to stop the complaining.

By the by, we have fixed the gank problem in other games. It mostly goes with guilds and other teaching player how to read the signs to see a gank coming and to understand the best ways to get out if them. It's not by the computer doing it for them. If we get to the level of the players working together to avoid or stop ganks you get a healthy pvp game were the players police it themselves. That is how the sand box is supposed to work.

Edited by Bach
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Then a month after that those same guys will complain about getting ganked by two players at 1.5 BR that attack them in a way they can't escape or get help

 

I'm sure 99% of players would rather do a 2v1 than a 10v1. Edit: Except the ganking RvR people, they need to outnumber enemy by 5x BR to PvP.

 

And you can't compare NA to POTBS, combat systems are totally different. And NA doesn't have the 50 magical skills buffs.

Edited by Acadian44
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I'm sure 99% of players would rather do a 2v1 than a 10v1. Edit: Except the ganking RvR people, they need to outnumber enemy by 5x BR to PvP.

 

And you can't compare NA to POTBS, combat systems are totally different. And NA doesn't have the 50 magical skills buffs.

if you want fair neutered fights, go play an e-arena game and get out of a REALM vs REALM game.  War is not fair, get used to it.

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lol POTBS was dead long before they started messing with anti-gank mechanics.

 

Don't go looking for 6vs1 fights with SOLs that can't keep up.  Seriously, you're here asking for a 3000 BR vs 200 BR fight because "challenge"

 

Id imagine most groups are looking for "any" fight. Not because challenge but because the odds of running into another 3000br group is probably slim...

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Most (if not all) traditional non-video games (chess, cards...) and sports (soccer, rugby, tennis...), all skill-based, all PvP by definition are fair : rules force the same number of opponents in each camp. There, only skills make winners and losers. You won't imagine say a soccer team of 11 players having to face 30 players during 90 minutes.

 

Why ? certainly because fair games are funnier for both camps and need more skills.

NA is a game, a skill-based one. Wars in XVIIIth-century were... wars : often unfair and never fun. 

 

OW fights in NA do not require to have the same exact number of players on both sides to be fun.

Having to face a slightly more powerful force is fun too. 

But they need to be more or less balanced.

 

The argument "It's a sandbox game" is invalid as devs never said Na would be a sandbox without rules.

A 11vs30 soccer game would be fun for some, but, in the long run, not for a lot of ppl.

 

The aim of patch 9.67 is to "soften the ganking" with the BR = 1,5 rule, not to prohibit it. Let's try it first before rejecting it.

 

Just my opinion.  :)

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Unfair fights are great fun. Such as 2v5, 3v7, 6v3, 10v6. It's the 10v1, 13v3 seal clubbing that is boring, takes no skill or brains to do. Making NA boring for a large number of people. These big ganks are easily avoidable but it take time out of peoples lives that they could be spending having a fun battle. People don't have 15 hrs a day like some to find a good fight, which is a major turn off.

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That anti gank rule is pointless

 

Group with a BR of 3000 is hitting a Group with 400. "only" 600 BR will maybe fight in that battle. 2,4k BR is waiting outside and wait to gank someone who try to run away. So the ships which could escape get ganked afterwards. That is, for sure, a better ganking System like the old one, where, if you could escape, you could really run.

 

Bach is right so far, that all "create" changes in POTBS ruined the game. They community complained about some mechanics, like ganking, POTBS did something against those mechanics. AFter that People left the game because they couldn't use that mechanic anymore (a non game breaking mechanic) and those who complained where sad because they had less battles after that Change (even thought, even those which complained used those mechanics). The biggest lose of Players during my time was, as far as I remember, the chagne that only in "red zones" (unrest generated Zone after kiling a couple of AI ships).

 

NA says no to "see where u are on the map" because it has to be realistic. How realsitic would it be if you tell another Nation that you can only send 300 tanks to a fight in another Country because the other one has only 200 tanks? I think that is enough said for the topic "relasism"

 

I got ganked several times now and, so far, didn't gank since I have to grind AI fleets or do mission whoring to get a usefull ships for PvP. But my plan is to Play with my mates in the future and then I'll have to gank also to get on ships,gold,xp and so on and I'll be really pissed if I have to stay out of an battle because and wait because of a "new" (which proved in other games as not really working and/or game beaking) introduced game mechanic.

 

Instead of doing such a stupid change, they should change the battle screen behavior or try to invest more time into the eco system or spend a bit time in the Intrface (yeah I know, it's done in the end, but the GUI is the reason why many people even try to play that game). IMHO: then the time wouldn't be wasted.

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I say remove this restriction - if I put myself in the position of being able to be ganked then I SHOULD be ganked

 

And I don't understand where the support for such a restriction has come from. Yes, there is mention of 'ganking' in chat but only as warnings to other players that, for example "watch out N of Jamaica, the French gankers are out again"

But these are just warnings of danger, not complaints that ganking is possible

 

To me 'to gank' = to successfully arrange to have numbers on yours side (all war leaders should aim to do this)

 

And 'to be ganked' = through bad luck or bad planning finding oneself outnumbered

 

--------------------------------------------

This restriction fails on so many levels

Edited by mouse of war
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