Jump to content
Game-Labs Forum

US Navy Chippewa-Class Ships of the Line (USS Chippewa, New Orleans, Pennsylvania)


RMS Gigantic

Recommended Posts

This might be a gray area as to whether these ships fit the era of the game or not, since these ships were laid down within the last year or two of the Napoleonic Wars, and thus they teeter on the edge of inclusion, not to mention the fact that the ships that were laid down in that time weren't finished, but I am outlining these ships just in case they're allowed in.

 

The first two ships of this class, the USS Chippewa and the USS New Orleans, were laid down in 1815 but were never finished. The finished ship was laid down considerably later, but she was finished, so it is this third ship, USS Pennsylvania of 1837, which I will be showing pictures of to visualize this class of ships of the line:

 

h42715.jpg

 

Given that the United States Navy used heavy frigates as capital ships for much of its early existence, ships of the line were rarely built for use by the US itself (I know of at least one ship of the line that was built and then immediately given to France). Combine this with how late into the game's time period the United States came into being, this leaves very few options for US ships of the line. Thus, I believe that the USS Chippewa and USS New Orleans could at least somewhat fill a gap in the US Navy compared to the nations of Europe, as these were the only 100+ gun United States ships of the line that I know of! They were designed to carry 74 to 100 guns according to the shipbuilding contract, but one newspaper, after the ships were cancelled, described them as "lake monsters" with "102 and 110 guns." They might fit in the game as well, since USS Chippewa and USS New Orleans were originally meant to fight in the War of 1812, and were only cancelled because Britain surrendered as they were nearing completion!

 

The Pennsylvania was built far later, and she carried some 140 guns:

 

USS+Pensylvania+(7).JPG

 

 

 

If you stacked these ships up against the British rating system, between their deadweight tonnage and their armament, they would be first-rate ships of the line through and through!

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think ships like USS Pennsylvania are way above in terms of NA general time period ships lineup (XVIII-early XIX c.), the reason is exploding shells :(. Tho the ship is awesome 

I was focusing on the Chippewa and New Orleans, which were planned to fight in the War of 1812 (essentially the American equivalent to the ending to the Napoleonic Wars), and were laid down in 1815 in anticipation of doing so. They fit the era far better than Pennsylvania would; I only display the Pennsylvania so much because she was the only ship of this class to actually be completed, and therefore the only ship of the class that I can find multiple pictures of.

 

The first naval gun designed to fire exploding shells came almost a decade after these two ships were laid down.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

the uss ohio looks way more apealing to me than this oversized bathtube.

and sems to be onpair in terms of firepower and size with our currently Victory

 

34x42lb

34x32lb

32x42lbcarronades on spardeck

2x32kb longguns on forcastle

102 guns totall

 

but i must say the US back then kinda sucks at making a decent sterngallery

IMG_1843adj-252x300.jpgIMG_1832_adj-300x200.jpg

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

the uss ohio looks way more apealing to me than this oversized bathtube.

and sems to be onpair in terms of firepower and size with our currently Victory

 

34x42lb

34x32lb

32x42lbcarronades on spardeck

2x32kb longguns on forcastle

102 guns totall

 

but i must say the US back then kinda sucks at making a decent sterngallery

IMG_1843adj-252x300.jpgIMG_1832_adj-300x200.jpg

The problem with Ohio is that she's a ship from 1820, which is undeniably after the Napoleonic Wars.

 

And hey, I rather like stern galleys of the six original frigates!

 

kdk_0487.jpg

 

They're decorative, but not over-designed to the point of tackiness!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

since i start thinking that there is/was a general missunderstanding between us i just get back to the start:

 

 

This might be a gray area as to whether these ships fit the era of the game or not, since these ships were laid down within the last year or two of the Napoleonic Wars, and thus they teeter on the edge of inclusion, not to mention the fact that the ships that were laid down in that time weren't finished, but I am outlining these ships just in case they're allowed in.

 

1670-1820 +/-5 so they fit but again do you know by theway if there still exists plans of them hull+sail since they got not finished? will be hard to bring ingame if these dont exist anymore

Link to comment
Share on other sites

since i start thinking that there is/was a general missunderstanding between us i just get back to the start:

 

1670-1820 +/-5 so they fit but again do you know by theway if there still exists plans of them hull+sail since they got not finished? will be hard to bring ingame if these dont exist anymore

I'm a newcomer to this subject, so all I have are public domain documents (the Internet), and don't know where to search for plans of lesser-known or incomplete vessels, but the ships got along rather far in their construction, to the point where it was claimed that the ships were run up in 42 days. I would think that there would be some plans to these ships in an archive somewhere.

 

Apparently, New Orleans in particular remained in this state in the navy yard that was building her for almost 70 years:

sol17.jpg

 

There's even a picture online of the document that ordered the construction of these vessels:

 

sol16.jpg

 

More information to this effect can be found at http://www.hazegray.org/danfs/line/sotl.htm#1813-2 and at http://www.usskidd.com/ships-no-usn.html

 

So yeah, I can't find plans of these two ships, but then again, I can't even find plans of the Constitution that are as detailed as what the developers were shown using, so there's a real possibility that those plans are residing in an archive out there, un-visited due to a lack of interest, especially given how close these ships came to completion before the War of 1812 ended.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

What was the strength of the American Navy in this period up to 1815?

 

Personally not really a fan of bringing back things that were simply not part of the navies of the day for whatever reason.

The Americans did not think it important to complete them.

 

I assume the Americans used frigates because of tactics and possibly not wanting to draw an entire british line fleet over for a conventional fleet battle??? 20 or so ships of the line plus on one side.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I suspect the US ordering ships of the line during the war of 1812 was a political move, at this point the British were blockading all remaining major US warships and had almost completely shut down the US coastal trade. The american merchant fleet was being devastated, over 1600 ships lost to British warships and privateers, combined with the 3000 odd ships seized by the British and French during and after the quasi-war period the American merchant fleet did not fully recover until the 1830s, and American merchants would have been demanding action from Congress and the President.

 

The British had a fleet of no less than 180 ships of the line, and with Napoleon's defeat in 1813 were in a position to deploy a sizable number of these to the American theater. As such, 6 ships of the line would have been nothing more than a gesture, and only have lead to larger blockading squadrons.

 

As for the ships themselves...

 

Chippewa and New Orleans were ordered as a counter to HMS St Laurence, a 1st rate whose completion handed control of Lake Ontario to the British, and with it access to invade the state of New York. Like the St Laurence they would have been landlocked, as such its no surprise both sides were happy to make scrapping the Great Lakes fleets part of the Treaty of Ghent. Neither ship was completed, peace coming only 3 months after their being ordered.

 

I'm not sure Chippewa and New Orleans are sister-ships with each other though, let alone the Pennsylvania...

 

All 3 seem to have different measurements and armaments, and Chippewa and New Orleans seem to have had one less gundeck compared to the Pennsylvania. Also, I'm not finding mention of a Chippewa class. They are probably more similar to the USS Independence (the only one of the 6 completed during the war of 1812). All the American lineships appear to have been different designs, the Americans were still experimenting having decided to build their own designs rather than just copy existing types.

 

If any of these ships were to be added to NA Independence might be the best choice, as mentioned the only one completed in wartime, and its more likely there are plans for her. 

 

 

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It reminds me of the argument people always have for ww2 games about letting the germans have the Z class aircraft carriers they were building but never completed or converted instead. If you want to replay history then yeah what if is plausible but opens the flood gates for many other things.

It also changes the entire flavour and strategy of the nations in question and gives people the wrong impression of history.

 

I simply think it would be wrong to be facing an American fleet consisting entirely of ships of the line in this period. But that is what would happen should it be allowed.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

There would also be a certain balance issue...

 

USS Independence (and HMS St Laurence) are effectively the first of the "next generation" ships of the line. No tumblehome, wall sides so that bigger guns can be carried higher in the ship. The separate quarterdeck and forecastle of earlier lineships is replaced with a spardeck (as with the american frigates), allowing guns to be mounted along the full length of the weather deck. The poopdeck is removed, this means one less layer of stern gallery, and helps compensate for the heavier guns.

 

So they are both nominally 2 deckers, have only one layer of stern gallery like a frigate and yet are very much 1st rates. St Laurence has 104 guns, 32lb on the main deck, 24lb on the upper deck and 32lb carronades on the weather deck. Independence may "only" have 90 guns but they are all 32lb long guns, even the ones on the weather deck. Both ships distinctly outgun the likes of the Victory and even the Santisima Trinidad. Only the 120 gun french and british 1st rates, the Ocean and Caledonia classes, would actually be more powerful.

 

These 2 ships are the only examples of their type to see wartime service during NA's period and distinctly different from other 1st rates, yet if added to the game they could well outnumber the historically much more common classes, especially the Independence if she was the only Lineship available to the American faction.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you for all of that information, Alex! I confess that I am very new to the business of Age of Sail combat; I'm a bit better-versed in terms of 20th century naval combat, but there's a lot more I want to learn there as well.

 

These ships probably weren't parts of a "class" just like the original six frigates of the US Navy weren't a class, but I figured there might have been enough similarities between them, like the similarities between the original six frigates, to name the thread title what I did.

 

I was under the impression when I made this topic that these ships would be more akin to Naval Action's equivalent of the USS Montana (post-Iowa battleship) compared to certain other navies' Yamatos than being in a league all their own. I realize now that I was most likely wrong by thinking that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you for all of that information, Alex! I confess that I am very new to the business of Age of Sail combat; I'm a bit better-versed in terms of 20th century naval combat, but there's a lot more I want to learn there as well.

 

These ships probably weren't parts of a "class" just like the original six frigates of the US Navy weren't a class, but I figured there might have been enough similarities between them, like the similarities between the original six frigates, to name the thread title what I did.

 

I was under the impression when I made this topic that these ships would be more akin to Naval Action's equivalent of the USS Montana (post-Iowa battleship) compared to certain other navies' Yamatos than being in a league all their own. I realize now that I was most likely wrong by thinking that.

Not too far off  :)

 

The Independence at least is at a similar level to the biggest 1st rates of this era (Pennsylvania would be a different matter ofc). Its probably not even a difference as big as Iowa and Yamato where each ship would benefit from certain circumstances. If you pitted Independence vs a British 120 gunner they will be almost identical in firepower, "armor", sailing qualities, pretty much going to come down to the individual captain and their crew. Or luck.

 

So my reservations on adding her pretty much come down to being a later type. The historical balance through the start of this games period (1670) to the end of the Napoleonic wars encompasses hundreds (maybe even a thousand plus) of 2 deckers built in the same style, scores of 3 deckers and exactly 2 of these later style ships of the line. Yet if they are included you are going to see them at least as often as the other first rates.

 

Also, I suspect the USN in NA will not just be a lot bigger than the historical version but likely one of the biggest nations ingame, how many Americans would pick another nation?  ;)

 

Lets at least keep it a frigate navy with the big 44s as super-frigates and flagships rather than the USN running around with fleets of 1st rates (tempting as that might sound  :P)

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well I'll weigh in here just for the fun of historical argument. :P To summarize noted early USN historian Howard Chapelle's research on the matter it would appear that the Independence, Franklin, and Washington ( the War of 1812 built ships of the line) were actually closer to later 2-decked 90 gunners than 1st rates. Essentially they were Joshua Humphrey's 1799 design for a 74 gun ship (roughly equivalent to a large class Royal Navy 74 in dimensions, and actually slightly smaller than some french 74s) lengthened and widened to have a longer gundeck and widened to support the added weight. Now, the disorganized or at  least ill-advised manner in which this was done is apparent in that none of these first 3 liners had adequate freeboard to reliably open their main battery gunports in all but the calmest of weather, and thus were essentially ineffective as line of battle warships. The dimensions were altered by the captains overseeing rather than shipwrights, so it seems to be a failure of proper oversight rather than  poor shipbuilding principles. Had they had a proportional amount of depth added, they likely would have been fearsome 90 gunners to outgun the very fine French 80 gun 2-decker classes then in use designed by the Legendary J N Sane. Even had Humphreys original design been used they likely wouldve been perfectly capable and effective 74s, and probably quite fast to boot. The modified design that was built was certainly fast for its type, with Humphreys original lines essentially being a ship of the line version of Constitution and sisters.  The 1814/15 vessels also did not have fully armed spar deck, like the later American '74's only having a very large armed quarterdeck and forecastle. LIke the later vessels, they only had one tier of quarter galleries. 

 

TL;DR the independence and sisters didn't outclass or match 1st rates, but they were still quite powerful. However, its a moot point because oversight in modifying their designs led them to be ineffective as ships of the line. 

 

About the Chippewa and New Orleans: So far as anyone can tell, plans haven't survived. Most designs of the American Lake vessels haven't been found, by Chapelle or those who have tried to fill in the gaps in his research since, and the plans that are around are around of the lake vessels (such as Niagara and Oneida) are mostly from conjecture and reconstruction.

 

I agree that the Americans shouldn't have any of their later designs for their spar-decked '74's that were more like 1st/2nd rates. If they do then you'd have to allow British and french 2-decked 90s and the like, and that's a whole different era. Plus they're downright ugly :P  The Independence and sisters were ineffective, and teh same problem would be present in-game, so it wouldn't make much sense to build those either. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

As ever I'll bow to your expertise, didn't know they had such problems...  ;)

 

Independence at least looks very powerful on paper, that broadside is only slightly lighter than the British 120 gun ships, and heavier than the French Ocean class since they didn't use carronades.

 

Then again, without that lower deck they would be struggling with a regular 74...  :P

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...
  • 2 weeks later...

What was the strength of the American Navy in this period up to 1815?

 

Personally not really a fan of bringing back things that were simply not part of the navies of the day for whatever reason.

The Americans did not think it important to complete them.

 

I assume the Americans used frigates because of tactics and possibly not wanting to draw an entire british line fleet over for a conventional fleet battle??? 20 or so ships of the line plus on one side.

 

The trouble with the British fleet was most of it was occupied with Napoleon and his European allies. Though America was sided with Napoleon for the most part, England had bigger fish to fry than a colony in the middle of an identity crisis. America knew that it would never be able to front the same sort of manpower or fleet composition that the British could muster, so instead it adopted a gorilla warfare type navy. It's vessels were designed to be able to overwhelm anything roughly their own size, and outrun anything that was larger, relying on the wars in Europe to keep the majority of Britain's might away from American shores. Of course with what would later become Canada still under British control, most of the fighting took place on land and on the Great Lakes. That said, I recall an attack on Britain's North American station in the city of Halifax which Britain managed to defend. 

 

EDIT: That ship DOES look like a bath tub...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 months later...

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...