Define PVP

[Captain]

Sometimes there are two boats, and one will shoot balls into the other one. Both of them are being driven by players. 

 

P    V    P

[iR_Willow]

Is this new system the beginning of the end of the sandbox combat? We gonna have a warships matchmaker now?

[Bach]

PvP is not, imo:

1.  Ganks  (I do not consider 2v1 a gank unless it's grossly outmatched ships, then it may be defined as seal clubbing (see 2)

2.  Seal clubbing

3.   RVR - as RVR  typically relates to #1 in my experiences  - also, consider a player that avoids the intense portion of a port battle and joins in only when they are assured of victory - do you consider this individual a pvp'r?

 

Ultimate PVP experience is:

1. 1 v 1

2. small, organized group - say 6 v 6

3. Closely matched ships and skill sets

PVP is simply any player vs. any player. If two ships meet at sea and one is a trader captain using the wind angle and even NPCs to escape a pirate frigate this is no less a duel of tactical skills and wits than two players fighting it out in identical frigates.

The idea that 1v1 is the ultimate battle of skills is a pathetic rumor generally pushed by gladiatorial style battle fans. Certainly if one player can best two or three that is by far a more ultimate test of skills. In fact in most games 1v1 generally just becomes an excercise in everyone using the same "best" gear and pushing the same "best" sequence of buttons in endlessly repetitive situations. One could argue a gladiator is no soldier as the solder adapts and fights in various changing situations and variety of weapons.

Fair and equal fights are nothing more than gladiatorial contests. Thus doesn't make them unskilled. Certainly boxers in rings are skilled but do think Mike Tyson really stands up to trained navy seal? It's apples and oranges. To say 1v1 is the ultimate combat is only true in a very limited set of skills.

[Mrdoomed]

Is this new system the beginning of the end of the sandbox combat? We gonna have a warships matchmaker now?

Its what is comming. Im insulted almost daily because i worry about just that. Unfortunately like every other game the squeeky wheel gets the grease but then in video games those wheels always quit after they ruin the game.

Whatch the insults this will provoke just by having a difference of opinion.

[Mayhem Like Me]

I like the changes this patch will bring to RVR, OS instances, and the new system for Duels! Exciting times ahead for PvP in NA.  Unskilled gankers have been raging, now they qqing - too much fun here on forums and in game!

[Mrdoomed]

I like the changes this patch will bring to RVR, OS instances, and the new system for Duels! Exciting times ahead for PvP in NA. Unskilled gankers have been raging, now they qqing - too much fun here on forums and in game!

I hope youre right and the cryers stay in the protection of duels. Maybe there will be silence. ...yeah right.

[Bach]

I like the changes this patch will bring to RVR, OS instances, and the new system for Duels! Exciting times ahead for PvP in NA.  Unskilled gankers have been raging, now they qqing - too much fun here on forums and in game!

1v2 is a challenge, 1v3 is a higher challenge, 6v20 and the 6 scoring kills is a group of ace pilots who are dangerous anywhere they go in the game.

1v1 is the lowest level of challenge. It's where challenge begins. It's the baseline. Celebrating because the game has decided to dumb down the level of challenge to 1v1.5 to curb some unskilled gankers is not really something the soldiers of the game would do. Soldiers WANT the chance to fight the gankers. They want things added to the game that help them find and get to the gankers. They don't want the computer saving the other players. They want to save them. This is just the first step in dumbing down pvp no matter how well intended it may be.

[Mrdoomed]

1v2 is a challenge, 1v3 is a higher challenge, 6v20 and the 6 scoring kills is a group of ace pilots who are dangerous anywhere they go in the game.

1v1 is the lowest level of challenge. It's where challenge begins. It's the baseline. Celebrating because the game has decided to dumb down the level of challenge to 1v1.5 to curb some unskilled gankers is not really something the soldiers of the game would do. Soldiers WANT the chance to fight the gankers. They want things added to the game that help them find and get to the gankers. They don't want the computer saving the other players. They want to save them. This is just the first step in dumbing down pvp no matter how well intended it may be.

What will happen is the same that happens to all games that start out good these days. The same loud minority (who use this tactic in teal life too) will come here, rage, complain, attack and belittle anyone who enjoya the game as it was intended.

Once said game is dumbed down to just another teletubbie show the gamers who would have supported it leave , then the 99%ers who are never satisfied move onbto the next crying match and abandoned the game.

Final step is the game dies and the 99%ers say see we are right the game died.

Its fun to watch it happen over and over. I had hopes for this game but its starting to feel like they will cave and its going to be just another instant travel , rigged matchmaker game of stupid button smashing and mod downloads.

Now that duels where added to try and please the minority they will next demand xp and gold for their duels they rig. The OW and sandbox will be empty5then.

[Hethwill]

Or fight them ( aka. organize yourselves a flotilla ) ? Damn bare chest mermaids of grand bermuda forbid us all from fighting back them baddies... in a pvp server...

[Bach]

How in God's name is a 12 vs 2 gank any fun?

 

Nobody wants to be ganked constantly.  People dock up and refuse to play (PotBS, Eve) for hours, days or weeks at a time until the gankers move to a new area.

It's not fun. But it's where you call in the rest of us and we all then have fun. This isn't a solo game. It's not supposed to be a solo game. But if you dumb it down to where players can safely sail solo past the enemy capital then it's going to become a solo game. Anyone who thinks all battles should be 1v1 is a soloist. If they aren't thinking "how can I get my team mates to fight the guys" rather than themselves they aren't contributing that much.

The real answer to gankng is in putting in ways for other players to fight the gankers creating even more pvp. Restricting pvp to 1v1.5 won't stop gankng as much as it promotes solo play and destroys team play.

[Mrdoomed]

How in God's name is a 12 vs 2 gank any fun?

Nobody wants to be ganked constantly. People dock up and refuse to play (PotBS, Eve) for hours, days or weeks at a time until the gankers move to a new area.

If thats an honest question then here is my answer. Getting sunk 12 vs1 isnt the fun its the avoiding the 12, using defense tags, wind etc to make them work while younlead them to your friends.

Also i prefer fighting bad odds , its more fun being the underdog. Now its basically open world stupid boring match making.

Yawn.

[Vllad]

How in God's name is a 12 vs 2 gank any fun?

 

Nobody wants to be ganked constantly.  

 

It can be fun occasionally but generally it isn't.

 

What are you doing about it? Are you getting your clan together to push out those 12 people? Are you making friends with other clans that can respond? What is your nation doing about it?

 

This isn't a WoW where you can just solo your way peacefully. This is an RvR game where you are part of a nation not a nation of solo players. Have you played RvR games like Planetside or Shattered Galaxy? When you logged in and got shot by 12 players did your team on Planetside just curl up and not head out to fight? No, you had 200 v 200 fights that raged on for the length of the game.

[Vllad]

And how does a 1.5BR limit on ganks prevent defensive tagging or pulling the enemy to your friends???

 

You tie them up in a fight to give your mates time to get to you. You may die but you need to look at the long term effects of the fight. Here is what I do.

 

When I get jumped by a large band first thing I do is get the X/Y coordinates. This way you can tell your clan where to go to find a fight. Sometimes a city location is enough but you need to know where you are so you can let your clan know where the enemy is.

 

If I can out sail the gankers I keep shooting back so no one can leave the fight until my clan lets me know they are outside. I try to keep just a couple people tied up as long as possible. Once people get bored and start poping out my clan then starts to counter gank the gankers. If the herd thins out enough I may just turn on them and start fighting.

 

If I can't out sail the gankers my goal is still to survive as long as possible to once again allow my mates to get in place. I think of myself and the rabbit in a dog race. Eventually I am going to get caught but the masters are outside waiting to catch them. Again the idea is to counter gank the gankers.

 

With the new rule I will never be able to tie that many people up anymore and as the gankee my chances for buying time to get help have been reduced significantly. People are unlikely going to be able to join my battle so that the tables turn in the 2 mins that we have since now their is a BR limit to open sea fights.

 

Actually I expect the ganking to get worse not better as people learn how to game the BR limit.

 

I don't think the BR limit and defensing tagging have any relationship to each other.

[Elcid Barrett]

Ganking itself comes in many flavors. I have been ganked (and done a little ganking myself) in this game and others.

 

I have been ganked and had the gankers say to me after, "Good fight, not much you could do" or something to that effect. I leave the encounter thinking of ways to not let that happen again, but not upset. I have had other times where the ganker gives you some version of, "lolz roflstomped you n00b!" I leave that encounter thinking 'I am 43.. there must be a better use of my time"...

 

Every PvP game I have played has had some sort of debate on how to make PvP better. Unfortunately the only way to make PvP better is to ensure you are PvPing with a better class of people, which of course is pretty much impossible to control.

[CHVNGE]

PvP - A competitive arena where one or more humans strategically outperforms the other. Its a numbers game.

[Migui]

Carebears will always blame the game design for their lack of situational awareness.

It's so boring how much effort some put into trying to build artificial limits within a sandbox.

[Catastrophy]

Balanced battles are my kind of stuff in general. However, with this being open world and supposedly player driven economy - I feel it needs to include the possibility to smack down other players trying to "run the blockade". Or keep pounding single players until the rest of the nation decides it's time to do something about it.

 

Which on the other hand limits gameplay for players by ship selection and player acitivities. I don't envy the devs here - it seems quite hard to balance that out.

[jodgi]

1v2 is a challenge, 1v3 is a higher challenge, 6v20 and the 6 scoring kills is a group of ace pilots...

That sounds cool and all but is not how it works in Naval Action.

1v2 is already a tremendous challenge that the lone guy, whatever skill, usually can't pull off.

1v3 pretty much noone can pull off.

Skill does allow a surp to kill a 3rd (as an example) but only with a pretty wide skill gap.

A smaller group can also kill off a larger group but the 1vs thing is the hardest, even if they don't know any fancy moves they can still spike you fast enough to not make your moves amount to much.

1vs1 is baseline, as you say. That's why I like it so much.

[Bach]

That sounds cool and all but is not how it works in Naval Action.1v2 is already a tremendous challenge that the lone guy, whatever skill, usually can't pull off.1v3 pretty much noone can pull off.Skill does allow a surp to kill a 3rd (as an example) but only with a pretty wide skill gap.A smaller group can also kill off a larger group but the 1vs thing is the hardest, even if they don't know any fancy moves they can still spike you fast enough to not make your moves amount to much.1vs1 is baseline, as you say. That's why I like it so much.

There is nothing wrong with you liking the 1v1 level of challenge. As long as you also agree that it isn't the only type of challenge there is and don't ask for all the other challenges to be removed. Some players don't view running a smuggler ship through enemy waters and blockades as a challenge. Some see it more difficult and exciting than a 1v1 match. Some players just want to run around the battlefield solo and when they get themselves run over by a platoon of men they want the invisible hand of God to force the platoon to fight them one man at a time. The game computer should never prefer one challenge over another. Those should always be controlled by the players themselves.

Incidentally, last month we used to fight the pirates 6v20. So did the OMG clan and some LMN. It wasn't impossible in this game. We may not have killed all 20 but we managed some kills and sometimes had no losses. Was this difficult? Extremely. But we did it and we'll all remember it for a long time. ive been in a number if 1v1 fights but I don't remember any one of them as much.

Edited April 14, 2016 by Bach

[Trevish]

Fair fights are for the matchmaker of which we have 3 versions right now (Large Small Duel), open world should be unrestricted.

[Slamz]

How in God's name is a 12 vs 2 gank any fun?

 

We seriously screwed up if we ended up in a situation where there's 2 of us and 12 of them (and they hit us with a good tag and can catch us).

 

It happens, but rarely -- because we do employ some open sea skill to avoid things like this most of the time (sometimes we get careless or lazy, though).

 

And even then, personally I find it fairly exciting to:

1) Try to escape

2) Failing that, see how much damage I can do on the way down. When do I start my attack? How and against which ship?

 

I think there are some people who just get into an unfair situation and that's it. They are done. D-U-N, done. If they don't see a path to total victory, the game isn't fun for them anymore. I kind of feel sorry for them. As gamers, especially, I feel they should be able to appreciate even the hopeless challenges. Some of my best, most memorable fights were from hopeless situations.

 

 

1v1 duels are okay but you win a duel and it's like.... eh. That was kind of expected. You win a 2v1 and dang, you're pretty good. You somehow pull off a 3v1, which I agree is nearly impossible in this game, and that's a fight to remember!

 

Fair fights are so forgettable.

[Vllad]

That sounds cool and all but is not how it works in Naval Action.

 

 

It does work that way.

 

Generally speaking depending on the ships I am fighting how many players I fight depends on how I start a fight out.

 

Assuming I am solo any fight 1v4 or less I fight. I fight it according to the ships I am fighting but I do fight it, even if I am doing a retreating fight or attempting to string out the ships. I have a good chance (say more than 50% chance) of getting a kill/damage until they punch out on a 1v4 fight. I would estimate I have a 10% chance to get 2 kills/punch out. Once I got three. Never killed all 4 on a 1v4 no matter how bad the players were, however I will keep trying.

 

A 1v5 or 1v6 I will string out the players and put distance between me and them and IF I get a window I may try for a kill. I need the attackers to make a mistake before I decide on that however.  

 

A 1v7 or more and I will just prepare to run.

 

If I am with another player my strategy doesn't change.

 

However if I am with a 3rd player we will try to set up a cross fire even on a 3v7 or more to see if we can get ships separate in order to get a kill.

 

 

The mistake most people make is they just run and never get any fire on the enemy ships until their sails are a mess and it is already too late. If you are going to run you need to do a fighting retreat and not wait for taggers to waste your sails. To have success when out numbered one needs to put pressure on the attackers right from the start or their chances to get away and get kills even at the expense of your own ship is reduced greatly.

 

The worst thing you can do is just turn and run unless you are fighting people who have no chasers guns. That never leads to sinks.

 

 

Now obviously ship make-up determines my decision. If I am in a Tricom and I get jumped by 4 3rd rates I will just run them at their worst angle and not bother trying to kill one since I will not likely accomplish that in 90 mins. If I got 120 minutes I might try it.

Edited April 14, 2016 by Vllad

[Kaos]

It does work that way.

Keep thumping your chest over trashing some scrub tier gankers, it would be amusing to see how you replicate this against people who actually know what they are doing when they gank.

The thing about duels is that everything starts from individual skill, even in a group fight. If a person can handle themselves in 1v1, it means he won't panic and shit himself when you send him off against some isolated target to finish them or when a fight turns into a brawl, he won't need you to micromanage him and has probably much more situational awareness than some group-only fighter who always relies on his groupmates. It makes them much more versatile and reliable in fights.

also last 1v3 I had was meh compared to fighting a 1v1 against a skilled player because I know it shouldn't even be possible to win if they were half-decent players.

 

[Bach]

Keep thumping your chest over trashing some scrub tier gankers, it would be amusing to see how you replicate this against people who actually know what they are doing when they gank.

The thing about duels is that everything starts from individual skill, even in a group fight. If a person can handle themselves in 1v1, it means he won't panic and shit himself when you send him off against some isolated target to finish them or when a fight turns into a brawl, he won't need you to micromanage him and has probably much more situational awareness than some group-only fighter who always relies on his groupmates. It makes them much more versatile and reliable in fights.

also last 1v3 I had was meh compared to fighting a 1v1 against a skilled player because I know it shouldn't even be possible to win if they were half-decent players.

Maybe you should challenge Vllad. See how that goes for ya?

My experience with 1v1 gladiators is that they are a mixed bag. Sure they don't panic easy but they don't all adapt or make great decisions in changing environments. Hence why most want the computer to force 1v1s so they always fight in th environ they know best. You meet some of these guys that are just taught battle sequences. If the opponent is using a halbard I push this sequence of buttons and drink that potion. If he has a sword I push this sequence of buttons and use a shield. Etc.. Etc.. Just because he fights 1v1 doesn't mean he can read a changing battlefield, spot a gank before it snares him or simply adjust to changing variables like several opponents keying on him. The best thing 1v1 fights have going for them is limited variables.

Edited April 15, 2016 by Bach

[Vllad]

Keep thumping your chest over trashing some scrub tier gankers, it would be amusing to see how you replicate this against people who actually know what they are doing when they gank.

 

 

Good point. Maybe everyone I fight sucks. The good news is everyone else can fight these guys who suck as well. Thank you for proving my entire point. You can fight in this game when the odds are against you because sometimes people just suck. You never know that if you turn tail and run the wrong way.